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Roquan Smith

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Redwine4all, Mar 12, 2018.

  1. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    I was also on récord lobbying hard for cunningham last year. I even had him slightly ahead of mcmillan who we drafted. Edmunds actually looks like a bigger and faster version of cunningham to me. They have simmilar attacking styles. They are both long linebackers with good leverage who excell at working through traffic and beating blocks to get to the ball carrier. Cunningham wasnt a great pass rusher either. And they are both aware with good range in coverage, although edmunds is actually faster and more explosive while being bigger.
     
  2. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    When I evaluate players I evaluate them on whether I feel their gonna be successful pros, and at what value would I place on them, and who is gonna be better or worse at the next level, and who may bust, and who will become a star, and who is a steal, and who will become better if there is a competition of prospects..it’s not always about whether they would be good for the Miami Dolphins.
     
  3. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Zach Cunningham and Deion Jones are not the same type of linebacker. You need to recognize style of play and scheme fit when doing your evaluations.

    Smith for example does great in georgia because they protect him from blockers to a large extent. He would not have that luxury here in Miami. You see it happen all the time where a player is a pro bowler in one scheme then become average or below when they move to another scheme.
     
  4. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah well, I am a dolphins fan so I actually am looking at players in terms of how they would fit on our team. I think smith could be a perenial all pro on the right team with tye right scheme that will cover up his weakness in dealing with blocks. In Miami however I dont see him bein an all pro unless we get rid of Kiko and play smith at will.
     
  5. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    I think private work outs matter until they don’t. The Dolphins may very well prefer Edmunds over Smith, but I can almost guarantee you it’s not due to “scheme”.

    I do think Smith has the ability to transcend scheme. Is he a sure bet to make the HoF? No...lol. But overlooking someone with his talent because of scheme would be foolish, IMO.

    As for Hercules... I haven’t watched muc tape...but from what I’ve seen he’s a football player. And anytime you give a football player a chance it’s a good thing. I wouldn’t pick him in a middle round, but as a 7th or UDFA I’d take a look.
     
  6. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Did you want him at 18?

    He’s a mike linebacker, I didn’t care if he could rush the passer all that well, he never really did it except on a blitz..

    I don’t see any similarities with Zach and Edmunds, one was a sideline to sideline instinctual machine with great fluidity and coordination, the other is strict strong side backer with questionable instincts and awareness, not nearly as coordinated as Zach..

    Zach had this innate type of athleticism that I see in very few players..counter athleticism is the term I use.
     
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  7. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Yeah I do both.. and I dont subscribe to the theory of passing on great prospects because you cant fit them in..

    Myles Jack should be on this fu##in team, as well as Deion...and Schobert and Zach, and here’s why, we have desperately needed linebackers for a while now, desperately, and all four presented themselves with great value, and we passed...

    And where are we now... hell, we’re down to a rookie coming off an ACL who hasn’t yet to break his cherry..

    Yeah sure passing on those studs was scheme related.. how are those scheme fits doing for you the last three years lol
     
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  8. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You don’t not take Smith because of Kiko freakin Alonso
     
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  9. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    I agree, but it's not just kiko. It's also the 10 mil cap number he has for next year. Kiko cannot be cut until 2019 at the earliest. If you draft smith you would be playing him out of position this year with the idea of moving him to will once we get rid of kiko, but then we would still have a hole at sam.

    Edmunds could fill that hole right now and we can get another will to fill in for kiko next year. His style of play fits perfectly witg what we need our linebackers to do which is attack and gap fill. Edmunds is a special talent. So is smith, but edmunds is better for our scheme right now.
     
  10. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    hyperbole..
    No sh## they’re not the same type of backer.. nowhere will you see I said such nonsense, I just said a few pages ago Zach is a mike.. plain and simple, do you think he should be elsewhere.

    Anyone who thinks Myles Jack wouldn’t fit in their scheme I wouldn’t trust their eye period, some sort of mental block there..

    Deion Jones is a very physical linebacker, just because he’s smaller doesn’t mean jack, point a to point b he’s elite at the NFL level..

    Schobert is a jack knife, beautiful football player that can do it all, he’s also smallish..

    We missed on 4 great players that presented great value..and could all fit..

    Considering we’ve sucked at the position for years, and have 1 rookie with no exp that provides hope, someone better start doing things differently..
     
  11. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I’m pretty sure we can cut Kiko next year without too much loss
     
  12. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    The only thing I care about is the dolphins. If you don’t fit what I do than I’m not interested.

    I’m trying to win Super Bowls not nail you with I told you sos on guys that find success in other schemes.

    Anyways Zach Cunningham I had over Raekwon McMillan last year he probably would have been a weak to start with potential to kick inside to mike in Miami. Good feel for the position instincts that looked like they still had meat on the bone.

    At least that’s how I would have drafted him. Raekwon better tackle to tackle but for me at least lacked perimeter field range on tape. So there are nickel concerns.

    Myles jack drafted initially by Jax and put at strong. Miscast weakside ideal fit. But they already had a plus side weak option in telvin smith.

    In Miami to maximize his carry cover I’d have projected jack at weak. Didn’t have the read and diag for mike to be ideal fit. Jack was a hell of a cover backer on college tape. Probably the best I’ve seen in a while. And he thudded you on contact.

    The only reason I don’t have Roquan on my list for Miami is the poa play/stack and shed. It’s really that simple. Deion Jones would be a weakside backer here also. You want to maximize the return on these guys put them in run and chase clean to the ball schemes.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2018
  13. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I’m interested in evaluating players period, with of course specific interest in acquiring the best ones for our team, I do so because it gives me a better understanding of how good our front office is when it comes to stacking players and how they succeed at the next level.. if you don’t care about players outside of us, that’s cool that’s you..doesn’t make anyone better or worse..we all have our reasons in spending the time we do on players.

    Zach over Raeqwon last year but I’m excited for Raekwon as well, he was the next best thing we could of got..
     
  14. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Bro, when I mention upside or ceiling or his max, I'm not talking about size. I'm talking about knowledge of the game, his skills, getting better NFL coaching, his feel for the game, strength, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc...

    It's like the difference between a high school player and very good college player or a high school team and a college team or a college team and NFL team. It's not size ..or not only size.

    The kid is already a very solid player and he's only 19.
    There's a reason why he's rated as the #1 or #2 (I've only seen him as 1, but whatever) Lb by just about every single NFL draft professional. You're kind of making him out to be a late rounder or something. I don't really care what they think. However, they all say how good he is now, but more of how extremely high his ceiling is and how incredibly dominant he can be once he further develops.

    He's already good at covering TEs which is something that's been lacking on this team. Smith is good at that as well, but it's the whole package. With Edmund's size, he can cover big TEs.

    Don't get me wrong, I like Smith a lot and i think he will be a very good player on the right team, but I think what you have now and especially what you could have in time in Edmunds is just through the roof.

    My man, i have known you for a long time. We go back awhile. We've agreed on several prospects. I remember, you, ck and I were really pushing for Brandon Graham. I could certainly be wrong here. I often am. Again, I would love both players on this team, I just think Edmunds would be a better fit for the role we need right now and of course, his crazy potential.

    With that said, I think we should scrap this whole debate and hope they over draft Lamar Jackson with our first pick. Wooo! Awww sheet. Awwww yeah, mother effers. Let s have some fun.
    :butthead: :hammertime:
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2018
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  15. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    lol, absolutely Sceeterbug, We always good...and yes, we loved us some brandon Graham, another player we were high on, wanted to draft in the first round, and missed out on, oh well..

    I think this has gotten out of context, im not thinking late round pick for Edmunds, not at all..

    What Im doing is comparing the payer to the 11th pick in the draft and whether I think he's worth it for us, and comparing him to another player that could be available and stating who I think will provide better value at that pick.

    I see the flash Plays by Edmunds, clearly when it clicks, he looks the part..i see the upside if his instincts and awareness catch up to the rest of him, I also understand that his youth plays a role in that, he also seems like a good kid.

    I just don't wanna take any risks on my high first round draft pick, and I see enough underdevelopment to let someone else take the risk and have the patience..im willing to sacirifice that upside for a player I feel safer about..call me conservative in this case.

    What I think edmunds will be, a player who will flash great play at times but be frustratingly inconsistent based on things that ive talked about, a player that I will wish was around the ball more..you know how some players seem to be always around the play?, I don’t see that enough in college, you know how some players initiate disruption and make plays on their own? I don’t see that enough to drop my 11 on him..

    If we pick him, you know me, I will be his biggest supporter and hope that upside is there and I just mis read the youth part..I do think that's a real thing for me, I might not be properly adjusting for the youth factor here and how much that youth is atrributing to what im seeing.

    I know that I have said that for me, sacrificing some athleticism for instincts and leadership is a real thing for acquiring players down here..I feel like Smith offers more in that regard..I also feel like tackling ability, at the level that Smith is at, is something that should accounted for..we need linebackers who can run, chase, cover and finish..just as much as we need someone who can play with strength at the POA.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2018
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  16. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I keep looking hard at these two, Roquon has a nasty tendency to hesitate, even backtrack a bit the moment he realizes he’s going to be squared up by a lineman..did this a lot in the miss state game..
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2018
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  17. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores & Team Tua

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    I have been all over the place, which is typical for me, and now I see why GM's create a draft board. They set a criteria, do their homework, and try to keep emotion out of the decision. :-)
     
  18. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Stacking your board and adjusting value, if you get there and your player is not there that presents the proper value, try to trade down..
     
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  19. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    The more and more actual tape I watch of Edmunds. The more and more I actually agree with DJ here.
     
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  20. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores & Team Tua

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    Ha! If we didn't know better as Dolphin fans, we would think Zach would have been better suited for bowling and eating brontosaurus burgers. Love the guy! So glad he was a dolphin!! (Sorry to stroll down memory lane. I couldn't help myself)
     
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  21. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Be careful Nap you might be called a liar and a farce by someone, or be told that you don’t know what your looking at..
     
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  22. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Watch this game against clemson, I think in this game we got to see some of the best and worst of edmunds.

    GOOD:
    Great poa strength and gap fill. Rare ability to take on lineman and shed blocks. Sure authoratative tackler who rarely gets juked or misses a tackle. Good range, athleticism, length and wingspan to affect passes in coverage. Ideal size and athleticism for pass rushing linebacker and a good speed rush.

    BAD, got fooled by misdirection about 4 times during this game and also blew his coverage assignment on the RB on one occasion which led to a touchdown. lacks any real pass rushing moves other than a speed rush.

    At the end of the day his abilty to read offenses and diagnose plays will improve with more experience and NFL coaching. You dont pass up on a player like this with so much upside and ideal scheme fit for us because of a few misdiagnosed plays.

    When was the last time you saw a 6'5 252lb linebacker who runs a 4.5 forty and plus agility with his kind of production at 19?

    If he is there at 11 your run that card up and plug him in as our day 1 starter at sam and nickel mike where his skills would match perfectly with what we ask our LBs to do. His cieling is extrmely high, and his floor is not very low. At worst he will be a decent starter in the league, at best he is a perenial all pro and potential HOFer.

     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2018
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  23. Redwine4all

    Redwine4all Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this. Getting "fooled" would be a great change for our defense. Right now, we aren't getting fooled--we are getting blown off the ball. We can work on recognition and that sort of thing. If he's there, we have to take him, IMO...the only caveat would be if one of the QBs we want (Mayfield, Rosen) are there, and that's not likely.
     
  24. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    I agree with all of this. I DO think he is capable of learning and fixing his weaknesses. However, if he doesn't, I don't think he'd be a decent starter. Stephone Anthony has failed to fix his weaknesses, which is similar to Edmunds, and so far he hasn't been a decent starter.

    Smith's weaknesses aren't the same as not understanding the game. For every time he's been tied up by a blocker, I can show you 2 other times where he didn't and made an outstanding read and play. He doesn't miss tackles. He can cover any TE or RB in the league.

    As far as I'm concerned I'd take either. I think both will end up having wonderful careers no matter where they go. (Except maybe the Jets. They ruin everyone.)
     
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  25. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    I don't doubt the flashes and I certainly don't doubt the talent. You take his size and speed away from him and he still has some strengths that make him an intriguing prospect. But the more I see him take false steps that take him out of the play, the more I know hes going to struggle mightily in the NFL with that. It isn't a once here or there type thing. He almost has no conviction in his head of what hes seeing. When Roquan thinks he reads something, he is shot out of a cannon. Edmunds is unsure of himself it looks like. Now, it is possible to clean up some of his stuff in the NFL and getting older no doubt. It is just worrisome.

    Seeing it now, you cannot plug Edmunds in as day 1 starter. Roquan you can. Edmunds ceiling is insane no doubt. Pick your poison I guess.
     
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  26. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    You've got to understand the differences in their respective schemes & responsibilities, and the luxuries one is afforded over the other with free flow and roaming.

    Edmunds is most certainly a plug and play day 1 starter in our scheme.
     
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  27. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    We get it. Edmunds responsibility was to get washed out of the play as much as possible.
     
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  28. Redwine4all

    Redwine4all Well-Known Member

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    Totally agree. I cannot imagine having our defense and Edmunds, and Edmunds not starting. LOL. That would indeed by Dave Wannstedt crazy.
     
  29. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    If they were able to draft him it's no doubt they do so with him being a day 1 starter.

    The question is whether or not Edmunds would be able to be a day one starter. Physically he is, but he won't cut it if he doesn't learn the game a little better.
     
  30. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    Edmunds starts in base at strong the second we turn in the card.

    Competes at nickel with Raekwon in camp.
     
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  31. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Not if he doesn't get his mental game right.
     
  32. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Competes and beats Raekwon in camp.

    Not RM strength being in the nickel
     
  33. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    Right that’s what I meant. He would be day one starter for sure. Just not sure he should be.
     
  34. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    Still need a Mike w/ strong run defense capabilities. We also call a lot of zone & PM underneath that doesn't require pure man cover skills from the LB unit. Being that passing subpackages constitute for the majority of our defensive snaps, you're going to see McMillan in them quite a bit, if not all the time.
     
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  35. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. I can see a scenario where in 2019 raekwon and Edmunds are the starting nickel backers

    I doubt they drafted raekwon in the top 50 with long term 2 down vision.
     
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  36. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I think it would be package run between Edmunds raekwon and Kiko in the nickel

    And probably Kiko in dime unless Edmunds exceeded expectations out the gate in terms of versatility
     
  37. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Since this has become a defacto GENERAL DRAFT THREAD now ... local Michigan area radio reporting that teams are removing Mo Hurst from their boards due to the heart issue, despite being cleared. McShay among draftniks noting this could send him tumbling into day 2 or even 3. Frankly, if he's there in round 2, we need to think hard. Round 3 is a no brainer, heart issue or not.
     
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  38. Redwine4all

    Redwine4all Well-Known Member

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    Exactly.
     
  39. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    I’m not convinced miamis going dt in the first 2 days of the draft. Hayes will play some dt in sub package. I do think hurst is an ideal 3 tech.

    I do feel like if there is a surprise pick in the top 11 it will be Lamar Jackson. Top 15 I think he’s gone
     
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  40. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    If that’s the case we better get to the QB fast
     

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