Player responsibility, not position designation, is the best indicator for defensive packages. Especially with today's fluctuation of hybrid and varying prototypes. It's like claiming Miami typically uses a 3-4 front because Charles Harris hovers around 250# which is lighter than some LBs, let alone other DE's. He's a DE in our scheme b/c of his player responsibilities.
So if the Dolphins have TJ, Jones, Tank, X, Lippett, McCain, Branch, Phillips, Wake, McMillian, and Allen on the field would you consider that a dime? I would. Even if TJ was playing the hybrid S/LB position. The Pats, on tons of plays, have 6 DB's on the field. If they're utilizing a hybrid look for one or more of those DB's I don't think it matters. They are still DB's. Chung is a S. And thus it's a Dime.
I get the responsibilities aspect, but Chung, even though he may have LB responsibilities, will still keep his DB responsibilities. Isn't that what Hybrid really means? I think some people like to think of a "hybrid" player being a hybrid because their body type is sort of a tweener, but I think it's more about their responsibilities on the field. Is that not right?
Again, a package shouldn't be defined by the position designated by a team's generic roster list, but rather by player responsibilities. Player's are being deployed more and more these days for pure matchup purposes and their hybrid use blurs the lines of traditional package names. Going back to previous examples, New England is notorious for this. Kyle Van Noy is listed as a LB, but he was primarily used as DE pass rusher. After Hightowers injury, Eldon Roberts couldn't fulfill his duties as the primary Mike aligned 0x4, so NE screwed Chung into the box using him as a WILB and had underneath pass responsibilities just like a 3-4 Will would have and had Roberts take MILB duties. So to reiterate, jusy because Chung was on the field, along with 5 other DBs didn't necessarily mean they were using a Dime defense.
I wouldn't call anyone out for a davon godchaux college tape take. he wasn't around the ball enough. looked like while having the physical tools a red shirt was in order or at least limited run. Miami hit a grand slam landing those 2 dts on day 3 and getting the rookie return they did. that rookie return on that late a pick at that position is like hitting the lottery. taylor was pretty upright on college tape. tweener for me is more about the player hybrid is more about the responsibility. for instance Jerome baker for me is a tweener wlb/safety. and that's because he's not stout enough at the poa and gets blocked even by running backs. the ask with that kid though as a rookie looks to be subpackage range and carry coverage request along with edge and gap blitz top shelf explosion and close in space and to the ball. and I still think they could put him in some package safety ask. that kid pops off the screen on osu tape for the athlete and range and close.
rumors that Miami wanted a corner averett over smythe and fred warner over Jerome baker. I think warner and baker are pretty close although warner has the better frame. if it's run and chase like ask I think both are fine. as far as smythe imo he's the best blocking tight end in the class. if there was a better one I haven't seen it. technique is rock solid. great frame and he can do some scheme based pass catching production too. value wise I think that pick was spot on. gonna be interesting to see who ended up better off at tight end Miami or the ravens. hurst and mark Andrews vs gesicki and smythe. if gesicki doesn't win when iso'd and in the red zone that pick will fail. here's hoping he does. ive heard rumors that scouts thought that stride would give away intentions etc vs crafty veterans. caught a lot of contested catches in college and I think that stride had a lot to do with it.
Hurst and Andrews definitely look like the better duo. They are both more well rounded than either Gesicki or Smythe. I had mocked us picking andrews and hurst in several scenarios. Andrews was my favorite TE of this class he is the most polished route runner with the biggest frame and highest production out of all of them, and his blocking while not great is still better than gesicki's.
I like Gesicki over Hurst, but I too liked Andrews. I'm not so sure Gesicki will get too much better in regards to blocking, but I think he can be a huge asset to this offense.
Thank you, so much! You did a great job answering my question! I know this seems 2nd nature to most of you, but I never played organized football. Add that I am a hands on learner and sometimes I have trouble putting it all together. I really appreciate you taking the time to try and help me understand!!
baker needs to bring more consistent effort. lots of half *** effort on that college tape. kind of thing that usually cleans itself up in the pros once you are getting a pay check.
I think he will. Travis posted an article pertaining to Baker's childhood. His dad raised him right and he's definitely a hard worker and grounded.
While I agree that the tight end defense has been bad, the thing that excites me about Baker is his ability to cover running backs out of the backfield. Too many times over the years Miami has let up a 3rd and 6 off of a simple dump off to a running back because the linebacker could not get there.
I completely agree with this. And that will determine how successful he is. He has to cover the James Whites of the world out of the backfield. If he can do that, he'll be a great addition and our defense will be much better.
Agree. Defensively we call loafing players traitors b/c pursuit is not a talent or a skill, it's a mental effort that shows you're giving your team your all. Shouldn't be a problem in the pros if we have the team leaders we believe we do.
Charles Harris didn’t really pursue the ball when the play was away from him on college tape. He played like his hair was on fire every snap as a dolphin. I think that Miami’s psychological testing weeds out low effort or not driven types by and large. But really it’s hard to find a guy that’s dogging it in the pros. Mario Williams and Byron maxwell playing only for pay checks obvious exceptions. Baker could make a lot more plays if he just played with a more consistent motor. He better learn that or his career will be about special teams and likely bouncing from team to team. Check out that Quentin polings tape. He looks 5 foot 11 and maybe 225 on it he’s listed 6 foot and 235 he’s a better football player across the board than mike hull already. Bout time hull got his walking papers. If we keep Garvin over that kid we are clowns.
I'm glad those UDFA extended projects seem to be coming to an end with this new regime. I often wondered why players like him got the grace periods they did with little to no reason or production to back it up.
This is from 2016 but look at the athlete look at the range and look at the instincts. My guess is he added weight since then but looking at his test scores doesn’t look like he scraped any of the athlete. And he’s better at the poa than the size would suggest. http://draftbreakdown.com/2017/07/04/quentin-poling-vs-troy-2016/ If this doesn’t make it over mike hull....uhh what are we doing. Better athlete for specials better range miles better instincts and similar poa play if not better.
Here's an example of what I was referring to when labeling player responsibility vs roster designated personnel. It was a question posed asking the 3 defenses that used base the most last season. They were Cleveland, Carolina and Arizona. Many people think Arizona consistently uses primarily Nickel b/c of Mark Barron who is a converted safety, but since his player responsibilities align with that of a weakside backer in their scheme, it's essentially base form.
Yesterday, when asked about McDonald and a possible move to LB, Gase said he would stay at safety. I think some in the press are like a lot of us and are trying to understand things by putting positions in a box with hard definitions of their responsibilities. If I understand things correctly, you saying it is a lot more complex than that?. Do you think we will see a lot of packages where we have Jones, McDonald, and Fitzpatick on the field? Maybe something we play more than a base 4-3? I know Gase was saying he wants the best 11 on the field and would make adjustments if they had to.
Our defensive personnel and packages will be determined by the opposition, then how the game is progressing. So it's hard to put any number or estimate on how we'll deploy them. The league has trended offensively hard towards 11p, but as always with the sport that will begin to change due to the high number of defenses now being specialized for Nickel and/or other passing subpackages. Personally I see offenses going back to slightly heavier sets to counter. While ideally you would like to play your best 11 (whomever that may be) on defense, in reality you're forced to play the best 11 per matchups. Concerning positional tags and the Fins, the media got carried away with McDonald as a LB, specifically at the Will. There will continue to be situations when the safeties rotate and either Jones or McDonald is screwed down to present an extra man in the box, but their responsibilities will remain true to that of the safety spot. We'll see Big Nickel w/ Jones, McDonald, and Fitz, but as far as seeing it a lot I don't believe so and it will remain a subpackage option, and not one we'll play out of frequently simply due to personal favor.
hull was so bad at the poa when he got run that we signed a fat as a deer tick rey mauluga and that's separate from wearing an obvious regain/maintain the sticks target in coverage.
Yep, thanks. Barron played a similar role for Phillips last year in LA, not Zona. And I actually got the teams mixed up in my post as I meant to refer to LA playing in base more frequently.
thing is that style is very susceptible to the run unless you are denting the scoreboard on o. you come out in that I'm gonna do my damnest to make you pay for it until the scoreboard tells me I have to play it a different way. of course it helps when I have an enforcer at rb. which we no longer have.
so who's gonna be the odd man out on snaps here? is it gonna be bobby McCain or now that gase has told us tj is purely a safety tj McDonald? cause my feeling is if it's purely as a slot minkahs never gonna validate that 11 pick. It must be tj McDonald snap count taking the biggest hit
I would think so. T.J. should be used as Reshad's main backup. Although I wouldnt mind seeing him as the nickel and or dime linebacker. I think a duo of him and baker as our nickel linebackers would be good.
I have doubts about wanting Warner over Baker simply because of the McMillan connection. Baker had his best season with McMillan (who vouched for him to the staff) manning the middle at Ohio State. They seem to like OSU linebackers, and who can blame them? It was very likely a tossup and maybe they even had Warner on top, but I don't think there was an ounce of disappointment when they drafted Baker.
Warner is a better fit for us a sam. Is bigger and has better poa abilty. I can see them wanting him over baker, although baker is definitely better in coverage.
I wouldn't say Warner is a better fit based on your description simply because I think they wanted a coverage LB with range and speed. He wasn't drafted as a POA guy and I don't think they really valued a big guy all that much. He was drafted because Saquon Barkley couldn't get away from him. Baker is here because they committed to increasing the speed and range of the LBs. Baker is going to be flying around the field, to use an old phrase, sideline-to-sideline.
The problem is our defense is not built for small sideline to sideline types. I predict that our starting three linebackers in base defense will be chase allen at sam, mcmillan at mike and kiko at will with baker being our primary nickel linebacker. Baker is a specialist the way I see him, not an every down type linebacker. At least not on our defense which doesnt protect the linebackers from blockersallowing them to roam free.
Not here to argue. You all know a lot more than me. The discussion you are having got me interested, so did a quick look on google and found this. I was surprised that the height/weight requirements were as light as they are. I know it's only one gap, but I thought you needed some beef as a LB so you can handle your gap responsibility. Here they seem to think faster is better. I know it's just a guys opinion, but it looks like a lot of our guys fit the prototype. Thoughts? P.S. Sorry if this is stupid. I am just trying to understand why some think the guys we have aren't a good fit. Beyond the Bills and Sean McDermott / Leslie Frazier, here are some notable coaches and teams that primarily utilize a one-gap philosophy: Jim Schwartz, Eagles Ron Marinelli, Cowboys Dan Quinn, Falcons Mike Zimmer, Vikings Ron Rivera, Panthers Teryl Austin, Lions Steve Spagnuolo, Giants While this defense will occasionally feature twisting defensive linemen, blitzing linebackers, cornerbacks and safeties, you'll almost always notice the front defenders attacking. Rarely do defensive linemen drop into coverage in this system, because they need to account for their assigned gap. The "ideal" front-seven defender in this defense is "smaller but faster" type. Here are some modern-day height and weight ranges for each player in a one-gap system in the NFL: Defensive End: 6-foot-2 / 6-foot-5 and 255 / 275 pounds Defensive Tackle: 6-foot / 6-foot-3 and 290 / 320 pounds Linebacker: 6-foot / 6-foot-2 and 225 / 240 pounds As you can probably piece together, the front four creating pressure is paramount in the one-gap system, and having linebackers with legitimate sideline-to-sideline speed is a huge luxury. http://buffalonews.com/2017/10/04/talk-like-a-football-coach-what-is-a-one-gap-defense/[/quote]
I think that after years of getting slaughtered by TEs and QB runs in particular the coaching staff/FO have come around to wanting speed, coverage and intelligence at LB.
