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How much of a Diva was Landry?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by PlayinHarder, Jun 6, 2018.

  1. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    simple eval, the farther away he gets from the los the easier he is to cover, same thing in college..not a precise route runner either.
     
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  2. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    We saw footage of Landry at the gym, practising one handed catches ad nauseum.

    We never saw an improvement in his ability to run precise routes. I never saw him running routes that required change of pace to create separation. Hell Davon Bess and Brian Hartline had more ability to create separation but Landry is much more physically gifted than either of them.

    I’m not saying he didn’t study the playbook. What I saw him putting extra effort into were the things that contributed to his highlight reel, not things that contributed to team success.
     
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  3. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    he rounds his routes off all the time.
     
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  4. Phins_to_Win

    Phins_to_Win Well-Known Member

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    Yeah pretty much this. He is a one trick pony. Now that trick is really really good, but in the long run he isn't the guy you can build a significant route tree off of.
     
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  5. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    To be fair to Jarvis, and I definitely don't want to be fair, his full interview at the Plain Dealer looked like he was talking about organized trips away from the team's city. As he talks about Tyrod organizing Miami, then back to Cleveland, and then they're going somewhere else again after Cleveland

    "And we've got something else planned when we leave here right before training camp and stuff like that. I love it. "

    Then he goes on to say, when asked a followup, about two other QBs not just practicing with their WRs in the offseason, but taking them elsewhere. It could be construed that way. But then ...

    If he deleted all his miami stuff from instagram or just the offseason with Tanny stuff? If so yeah, makes him look even worse.

    Anyway, good riddance. I'm actually one that would have been pissed if we paid Landry anything in 8 figures.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2018
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  6. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Well, when only 18% of your targets are contested, it's really easy to catch a lot of balls. Did he study the playbook? Sure, every player in the NFL must know the playbook.

    Did he master the playbook so when situations arrive he's ready to go?
     
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  7. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    I do t want to all of a sudden pretend like I didn’t love having 14 on the team. I was indifferent on us investing that big of a contract on him, not upset we didn’t, think we are better off without him.

    But not going to pretend I didn’t love watching him play football for the Dolphins.
     
  8. RevRick

    RevRick Long Haired Leaping Gnome Club Member

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    El Torro Poopoo!
    Too much happens with the other 50 or so people on the team to place ALL of the blame on any Single individual, and as far as having no excuses - who is going to collapse on the D? Who will get injured on the O-Line? Which of our DBs is going to allow everything near him to be a completed pass? Who is going to become "Hands of Stone" on the receiving corps? Who is going to auger in instead of flying? Those and about eighty dozen different things can happen which can alter the course of the season!

    That last sentence is just too freakin' simplistic!!!! You are better than that!
     
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  9. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Watch the second interview on NFL Network. This was not a guy taken out of context, trying to say something innocent and/or factual. This was a pouty b!tch boy doing his best to smear Ryan Tannehill. Really, watch it. It's remarkable.

    I can only conclude that some sort of falling out happened between the two of them, perhaps unbeknownst to Tannehill himself since Landry seems like that sort of person, but something happened that Landry perceived as a slight and so now he's engaging in revisionist history in order to get back at Ryan.

    It could be a legitimate gripe, it could be that Tannehill actually did something to Landry to make him deserve being turned on. We don't know. What we do know is that would seem a little out of character for a Ryan Tannehill, whereas Jarvis Landry has a tendency to get emotional and start acting like a 13 year old.
     
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  10. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    ryan probably told him to get his head right last year, he was a bit of a head case last year..

    Maybe he called him a 2nd half sl##
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2018
  11. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    What situations? Like clutch situations or 3rd down.

    He gets a high grade for those
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2018
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  12. mooseguts

    mooseguts Well-Known Member

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    You don't have to get emotional to be an a$$hole, didn't quiet guy Marvin Harrison shoot somebody? We don't know these players or what they are really like. Furthermore Landry is simply answering the questions asked of him, it would be different if he was bringing up Tannehill out of the blue on his own accord.
     
  13. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    If you can't answer without blatantly making **** up, or smearing a former teammate, then keep your mouth shut.
     
  14. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Please, shows no class considering he flipped his play here into the the overrated contract he got, he’s got nothing to bit## about, especially talking sh## about his ex teammates..
     
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  15. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I loved watching him, sure, but I also hated the penalties and the outbursts that cost us chances to win. So I don't know where that left me at the end of last season- part of me wanted him here, part of me wanted him out the door. I think I'm happy with the outcome.

    For your comment though, you have to remember that football is a business and Landry is an employee. He would have ZERO success without Tannehill (and Moore/Cutler/Gase ) because they didn't ever have to throw to him. The trash talking after the fact shows that I was right to question his character. He's cashing in this year DIRECTLY because of Gase/Tannehill and it upsets me that he'd be that quick to bad-mouth anyone from Miami.

    Maybe it was taken out of context, but a real professional would have set the media straight quickly. People pay attention to Twitter and he could have fixed that perception issue in a matter of seconds if it were untrue. So in my opinion the guy does not get the benefit of the doubt here.

    Plain and simple, we traded away a liability who's talent can be easily replaced. You will not see Amendola throw his helmet in frustration and he won't throw punches or celebrate every 1st down catch either. Plus, the guy can actually run routes and he leads by example. That's a huge net gain in my book, even if Landry is the superior athlete with better hands.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018
  16. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Agreed...

    I think we’re all guilt of falling in love with the bravado and toughness he showed on the field..I think if your not careful and truly analyze what he is capable on the field you could wind up giving him more than what he’s worth...insert the browns giving him 15 a year for 10 yards a catch and a handful of touchdowns.

    I do think his availability and never missing a game deserves more money per year then what we think he is worth..

    Personally, I had him as a 2nd round pick, I didn’t think he could work on the outside nor did I think he could work down the field, his lack of speed is a real factor and should reflect in a contract, I think he is incredibly talented and strong, but with average route running skills and lack of speed, there was a cap on him staying..and 15 wasn’t it..
     
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  17. EverFin

    EverFin Active Member

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    Loved the pick when we drafted him because of his hands and loved his immediate Impact. Soon i began to dislike his demeanor. In todays leage a lot of games between equal talented teams are decided by nuances and details. There is no room to risk a First Down or a whole drive because of a emotional outburst from one player. It hurts to loose his talent but it relievs to get rid of his demeanor.
     
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  18. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    I had been worrying about that since early in his second season, and other people told me i was crazy and was blowing it out of proportion.
     
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  19. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    well we are spending almost the same amount. $14 mil for older amendola and scheme driven production albert Wilson. don't really see how this is a "savings"
     
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  20. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It's lateral capwise for this year, but not in the coming years. Plus those two seem to have gathered a reputation of being selfless players.

    The savings might be felt best in potential, future, on-the-field headaches.
     
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  21. jdallen1222

    jdallen1222 Well-Known Member

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    I think we will see the savings in penalty yardage.
     
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  22. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    I don't really know the future cap implications but im getting no indicator that we are going cheap in the slot. unless someone wants to tell me albert Wilson can make a legit living on the boundary. in which case I say maybe in tight sets.
     
  23. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I think one thing everyone is forgetting here is Devante Parker. He has not lived up to his potential but if he does, then we're set on the boundary for quite some time in Parker/Stills. We also know that we have our line, our RB's and our TE's pretty much ironed out for the next few years, so slot was really the only place that needed attention on offense (or maybe not...maybe Carroo finally steps up).

    Amendola and Wilson are basically insurance policies against Parker and Carroo. If Parker finally becomes that alpha, then we stop playing dink football and turn the offense loose. But if he doesn't, then we'll play a similar offense as we've seen and pick folks off with whatever they give us in short yardage.

    I think we are a lot more dynamic now though and not forced to rely on just one player anymore...Amendola gives us that Hartline-like talent to find space at all 3 levels. Wilson plays like Landry with speed. And we're hoping Gesicki gives linebackers those Gronk-like headaches over the middle. So that's several new looks that we just didn't have last year.

    One other thing to keep in mind, we ate a good bit getting rid of Suh but we will be in excellent cap space next year. So if Amendola and/or Wilson does not work out (along with Parker, Carroo and others), we will be able to do a lot next summer to get the receivers dialed in. We definitely wouldn't have that flexibility if we paid Landry what he was demanding, so it's unfair to say "we're paying the same either way." There was no getting around taking some hits this season while clearing out players we couldn't afford. That's worst case scenario if we have to overhaul the whole corps other than maybe Stills...and we'll actually be able to do it with top talent if necessary.

    Again though, all of this hinges on whether or not Parker finally puts on his big-boy pants. If he does, then we're not going to be nearly as worried about who's in the slot and if they can move the chains. But best case scenario has Parker clicking and demanding double teams, Stills smoking folks in 1:1 coverage for easy scores and Wilson/Drake being a nightmare over the middle in short yardage. Then you have Gesicki giving people fits as well, Amendola hauling in passes on 3rd and long...we'd have freaking weapons everywhere to ram it down people's throats.

    So if Parker finally clicks, everything else will fall into place nicely. We're in decent shape either way though thanks to the moves we made this off-season. In any case, it's a huge change from letting Landry catch a screen pass in front of triple coverage and hoping for the best. Once we get that coverage in other places, our next slot guy (whoever it may be) will look like a superstar.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018
  24. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I think we have three very good slot players. I love Grant. I think he has the potential to have a Tyreke Hill-like impact. He could be the best of the bunch and better than Landry ever was. He's simply the most dynamic WR we have. If he can develop some consistency (I don't think his hands are as good as our other slot receivers), he can be special. But obviously that's "potential". We do know that in a small sample size he was better, though. I see Wilson as equivalent to Landry. He's faster, but breaks fewer tackles. I do believe he's better on the perimeter than Landry was so he provides a little more flexibility, but I don't see that as a big part of his game. Amendola I see as more efficient than Landry as well, but I see him as a short-term benefit/insurance. Skill-wise he's a bit redundant. I think we were fine in the slot with Wilson, Grant (and Stills to lesser or different extent). The huge benefit from Amendola is that he teaches the group to be a professional. Stills and per report, Wilson are already professionals, but Grant and Parker still developing their habits. I think that if Grant and/or Parker develop then part of the credit will be that Amendola signing. In the short-term Amendola is still a very good player and IMO could give us as much or more in terms of production as Landry. He won't have the sheer volume (hopefully and thank god), but he also won't bring the negatives in terms of penalties and diva behavior (taking plays off or just not running the called plays). Amendola also just has the best feel for the slot position. He finds holes in the defense and makes himself available better than most in the league. And contract-wise, it's not even close. On a one year basis we're paying as much for the slot, but over the next four years we have a ton more flexibiilty.
    And Stills is a viable slot presence as well. Although his usage is different. He excels as a seam threat, but isn't as useful in those jerk routes where Wilson, Grant and Amendola can be unstoppable.
     
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  25. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    He was emotional. He would tend to get worked up and do what he wanted at times. You definitely saw it in some plays where the spacing made no sense and Landry was free-lancing. It may have been that he was so riled up he just wasn't listening to the play calls, but he clearly did his own thing sometimes,
     
  26. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    Show me gif examples where the spacing made no sense.
     
  27. Irishman

    Irishman Well-Known Member

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    You are getting more for the same cost. Remember, his high production was based on a limited number of effective plays last years team could support. Even then, his scoring did not increase in proportion to his targets. We now have two known good quality performers with slightly different skill sets and more consistent on field behavior both in staying on plan and with their personnel self control. If you don't see this as a significant improvement in our overall WR group, I don't know what else I can present to get you to change your mind.
     
  28. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    The best thing this team has going for it is tempo of play on offense. It can offset an awful lot. And put the d in pin ear opportunities if we can execute out of it. Where upfield guys like Quinn and wake and Harris 10 yard box type pass rushers can eat.

    People aren’t talking about it enough. From looks and coverages played vs it to inability to match personnel and dial up blitz packages. We can dictate to the opposition. That trumps everything not named getting a competent qb back in Ryan Tannehill.

    In terms of dvp he’s the most talented skill guy this team has by a mile. Well outside of the qb he is. No one else can come close to that kids skill set and ceiling. So if he does finally make good on his talent and potential Miami in 2 years will be paying that guy top 5 money or if we don’t he will find it elsewhere.

    That said I’m not sure we need that level from dvp. Especially if we can stick with this tempo of play. The scheme can do a lot of the driving of production. The part miami will have to get right is separating who is an actual difference maker and who is being propped up by scheme.

    In terms of slot skill set and insurance only adds in Amendola and Wilson can’t say I buy that. Looks like an offense that with or without juice wants to live in 11 personnel thus the multiple slot skill set adds. And hey New England has lived for years featuring all pretty much slot skill set at wr. Why could they do that? Cause they had a competent play caller and a tight end that put and still puts the fear of god in the opposition. Gronk dictates to the opposition at a level few can. Murders you in base murders you in the nickel murders you in red zone murders you on 3rd down.

    Gesicki isn’t gonna be that I’m just as good in line and in the run game as I am flexed and split on the Gronk level. Gronk handles edge des one on one and stones them. Hell I’ve seen him bench press with one arm edge guys like a walk in the park even.

    So where does miami get this boost if it’s not gonna be from dvp? Tempo.

    Tyreek Hill has a body for contact inside the box that jakeem grant for instance does not. The closest fire hydrant type box body we have now to that is Albert Wilson. So expect the backfield and box ask to be similar. Ideally jakeem grant is in a true vertical passing game. You have to limit the box ask given that body type.

    Amendola is a quality 2 way go slot but his production has also been highly scheme driven in New England. They run clear outs for him they run sticks concepts and pylon release things for him just like Miami did with juice. Just Miami used juice on more backfield or Albert Wilson type tight red skill set ask.

    Kenny stills takes advantage of a lot of clean 1 on 1 looks out of scheme and formation and stretches the field out of them. He doesn’t like to catch the ball in traffic or work the lb level and he’s the worst blocking wr in football. But he’s bought in to what gase is selling and has become a leader. Ok fine I didn’t like that $8 mil per number at the time cause I think it boxed us in with juice to north of the $12 mil clip considering his consistent production in his first 3 years. Much more consistent than Kenny stills was to that date.

    As long as we have all these slot skill set WRs and work out of all these 11 personnel looks miamis gonna continue to use the screen game as a big part of its offense. Not necessarily with called in from the sideline but run pass option and qb box count at the los built ins. You really think you are getting away from the screen game with an Albert Wilson add and a qb return with proper shoulder placement for max rac?

    We aren’t fellas.

    What we do need to do though is design more built ins that aren’t of the wr screen variety like a philly for instance.

    More variety. And more use of dvp like Houston with Hopkins in 3 by one sets with the easy coverage ids and iso on dvp.

    I’m sure that’s coming this year. If gesicki can give us that plus Iso win at tight end in short areas and the red zone then that’s icing on the cake. It’s his long term meal ticket anyways. Just like it was for Julius Thomas in Denver before we got the bloated I’m only playing for a pay check no longer consistent win option version in Miami.

    Zach ertz wins in short spaces with quickness all over the place. He wins inside on repeat and he wins quickly. Philly took advantage of that in the super bowl on 3rd down and in the red zone. Clear outs and iso one on one wins with ertz gaining the inside and presenting a target.

    Short area quickness are a finesse flex tight ends meal ticket.

    Ertz can’t climb the ladder like gesicki but gesicki is gonna have to get people out of his hip or he’s gonna have to catch a whole lot of contested balls at the pro level.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2018
  29. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    Exactly. Plus, if enough of the others step up, the team can cut Amendola after the season with no dead money. Meanwhile, Landry carries a cap hit of 14-15 million per season for the next four years all by himself, and then almost 17m in 2022. Amendola is basically an insurance policy for Miami.
     
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  30. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    To be fair, if we could have set that tempo in any of the past two seasons, it would have been a completely different offense with the exact same players. They couldn't get it installed though because people weren't catching on (except maybe for RT). If we can get it rolling with all our speed in 2018 though- watch out division.

    And you're certainly right about Wilson- he was used exactly like we used Landry only his numbers were twice as good. 80% of his catches were screens and he still averaged almost 9 yards per catch and over 10 ypc after contact. He trumps Landry in just about every imaginable category and was the only replacement we actually needed...but Amendola was smart for the leadership and work ethic anyway. He doesn't need to have big stats to make a big impact for us this season, similar to what we'll get from Gore.

    From everything I've read, the vibe is super good in the locker room and everyone is putting in extra effort after practice to make the most of this season. These guys are hungry and we finally have the right kind of leadership to chase a championship.

    And I agree with you, we don't need Parker to fully click to have a wining season. My point was that if he does take that evolution though with all the new leadership and work ethics in place, our offense could be scary good very quickly.
     
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  31. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    I’d argue that Wilson’s numbers being twice as good as Landry’s in the screen game or whatever was based around the perimeter out flank threat of tyreek Hill secondary and the real guy that all dcs are afraid of primary Travis kelce. Separate from qb placement leading to max rac.

    Kelce by himself was one thing in kc but once they had that outflank you blow by you threat in tyreek Hill that’s when that offense took it to another level.

    And of course the scheme in kc has always been damn good in terms of what they design and how they exploit weakness.

    And if that 80 percent of Wilson’s catches things were screens is legit that screams gadget player. Not win vs coverage one

    Wilson wants to tell you there’s a lot more meat on the bone in terms of what he can do and how kc limited him ask wise. I don’t buy that.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2018
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  32. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I have no idea how to create gifs but in that game at the end of the season where Landry got all pissed off it was obvious.
     
  33. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I was quoting that off memory; it seemed like the stat was 80% of all his catches were screens or very short passes. So I might not be dead on the number but it is pretty accurate. And yes, he definitely falls into that "one trick pony" category that Landry did....but we also signed him for half the salary Landry wanted when Wilson had double the production with the ball in his hands.

    So gimmick or not, it's basically 4x the results per dollar spent- a very smart move.
     
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  34. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    He had that beautiful TD coming off weak-side motion that game....or was that week 16? You're right though, most of his production came without a defender in the mix challenging the catch. I think that gets forgotten because of the number of circus catches Landry hauled in over the years- that certainly wasn't the typical thing though.

    I don't want to be tough on Landry because he's a player that delivers maximum effort at his maximum potential darn near every single snap. If the play was for someone else, he's throwing fierce blocks. And if his number was called, he was fighting for every inch. That's rare in football and he's one heck of a player, but his talent has clear limits.

    To me, no matter how you spin it, that talent cap doesn't equal $16M dollars as one of the highest paid receivers in the league. At what we paid Wilson I'd scream for him to be retained, but there's just no getting past that ridiculous number he demanded. He was easily one of my favorite Dolphins as well but that was wiped out in week 17 when he started the brawl. Once the cash demands came in, I just couldn't see a way to keep him and I think we made the smartest possible move.
     
  35. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    An interesting thing about Wilson is that 788 of his career 1544 receiving yards have come in December and January. For whatever reason, the Chiefs targeted him near the end of the season much more than the rest of the year. If he's a more regular part of Miami's offense, his numbers should be able to inflate.

    His yards per catch on first, second and third down are all very close, between 12.2 and 12.9. That kind of consistency is welcome, after Landry averaged 11.1 on first, 9.0 on second, and 10.0 on third. However, like Landry, the bulk of his productivity has come in situations where the offense needs 10+ yards for the first down (80/124 catches). He's averaged 12.9 yards per catch on 1st and 10, 16.9 yards on 2nd and 10, and 17.2 on 3rd and 10. Roughly half of his career catches, and yards have come between his team's own 20-50 yard lines.

    He's been most productive vs the Oakland Raiders, so lets see what he can do in Week 3. In eight games vs them, he has 16 receptions, for 298 yards (18.63 ypc) and 1 TD.
     
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  36. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    It remains to be seen if Wilson can defeat coverage on 3rd down like Landry did. Of course it also remains to be seen if Miami will ask that of Wilson.

    I’d argue that he can’t.

    In terms of Landry’s contract value to Miami the best argument I’ve heard revolves around tempo of play. It can prop a lot of guys up.

    For my money Wilson and Landry working in traffic vs coverage be it iso or anything else really other than zone sit down is no contest. And likely why kc found his game and skill set so expendable.

    If Miami has more salary flexibility going forward so be it. It also gained a older 2 way go slot skill set with a small catch radius coming from the best prop guys up provided they have the smarts the o requires schemed offense in football and a kc 4th option with almost all scheme based production. The benefactor of what’s around him.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2018
  37. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    Wilson is absolutely less proven. No question. But what he's done so far is impressive. When targeted in third and long situations, his line is:

    27 targets
    16 catches (59.3%)
    275 yards
    17.2 YPC
    2 TDs
    8 first downs
    10.2 yards per target

    But really, the hope and plan is that Wilson shouldn't have to be the man on third down. Stills, Parker, Geskicki should be the main three in that, and then he'll be one of the next ones up along with Amendola. That should have always been Landry's role too, but it never was, at first due to lack of other options, and then later due to his ego and personality, and the way that the offense had revolved around him. With him gone, things should be able to open up and work more the way that they should.
     
    Irishman and KeyFin like this.
  38. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    I don’t want to live in a world where Kenny stills is depended on as a go to guy on 3rd down.

    I think I’d rather just maintain the sticks so I can put to use some of that two way go $14 million in the slot skill set I just added and design ways for easy sticks concept primary conversions.

    Living in 3rd and 4 vs 3rd and 6 or 8 opens up Pandora’s box for me as a play caller and limits my exposure for the opposition dc.
     
    Unlucky 13 likes this.
  39. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    You sure you aren’t just running with the Landry witch hunt piling on cause if spacing was an issue I’m pretty sure I’d have seen guys running into the same air space.
     
  40. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    We can all totally agree about that! The team simply needs to do better on first and second down, putting themselves in more managable situations. Part of that will improve by getting RT back at QB, part of it by the improvement in the OL, and part by better play calling hopefully.

    Last season, the Fins had 68 plays of third down and 10 or more yards. On those, they averaged only 5.69 yards, and gained a first down 17.2% of the time, while scoring one touchdown. Worse, nearly half of that success came against Tampa Bay, and the other 15 games were just ugly. Against all teams other than TB and NYJ, the Fins were 4/49 in converting on third and long, which is 8.2%. Cutler had a rating of 61.3 in those situations. Stills had 5 catches, for 149 yards, 1 TD and 4 first downs, while Landry had 8 catches for 99 yards, no TD and 2 first downs.

    In 2016, the numbers were even worse. The team only faced that situation 53 times, which is better. But they only converted 9.4% of the time. Five first downs all season long on third and long, two of them coming vs Buffalo. Stills and Landry had all of the conversions receiving, while Tannehill had one with a run.
     

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