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How much of a Diva was Landry?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by PlayinHarder, Jun 6, 2018.

  1. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Which explains why Miami and the Jets tend to beat NE more than anyone else in the league. Because when you get down to it, Gase's offense is really built to primarily beat just one team....or he never would have got the job in the first place.

    Here's where I get a little confused though- the actual play calling. I realize you start the game with high level concepts you think will work against "x" opponent, and then you make adjustments in real time based on what the coaches see. How much of play calling is pre-determined by scheme and how much is gut calls on the spot?

    For instance, on a 3rd and 3- you come up to the line and defense is showing a zone blitz. You're down by 9 in the 3rd quarter. Obviously a play is already called in and RT is given audibles based on what he sees. In that moment, as the line is setting and the QB is surveying the field, how does that process work getting the final play established? I mean, how is the actual play decided. Is it Gase in a headset pointing things out or is it solely on the QB to make the right call? I have no idea how it's done on the NFL level, but that one second in time ultimately decides ballgames.

    I'm asking because we saw so many screen passes to Landry and dump offs to the RB- those obviously weren't the intended play in terms of a week of figuring out the scheme. I'd also see once or twice a game where Stills was streaking down the field completely uncovered due to a blown route, only for a short pass to go to the other side of the field. I'm thinking Stills wouldn't still be running hard 35 yards later if he knows the ball is definitely not coming his way...and you can only swap up so much with an audible at the line.

    So I guess I'm really asking how a play is decided, and if it's an audible then how much of the offense it changes. Does that make sense?
     
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  2. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    lol best thing about this discussion: there's finally some life on this board again!
     
  3. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    FWIW..imo...ingratiating yourself from one place that you've been for a long time into another place that's been here a long time with class, respect, humility and most importantly honesty, is what someone with some street smarts realizes.
     
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  4. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think, overall, people take criticism of the team a little too personally from people who are fans of the team.

    These aren't coming from Armando or Omar, these critiques are from people that like/enjoy the Dolphins enough to have signed up to a dedicated message board.

    Everyone wants the team to win in the end. If a specific critique doesn't float your boat, argue subtantively or move on.
     
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  5. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Well said.
     
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  6. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    Ah yes, the hardened streets of the internet and the faux credentials that follows.
     
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  7. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    Depends on the coach and the confidence he has in the QB.

    Some so-called audibles are actually just built-in checks. Think Bill Lazor and how RT only had the power to check the offense in and out of basic run/pass plays or flip run directions within the same formation, and the defensive ID's were based on simple motion and box number counts. It's a solid way to get your QB sacked 45+ times a season. I know college OC's, high school even, with far better teaching capabilities that run more complex schemes than Lazor did.

    Now flashback to QB's like Manning, who was a walking talking football encyclopedia, and he had full reign of the offense from basically day one with the anointing of Tom Moore and Bruce Arians. Same with Andrew Luck under Arians. RT is absolutely capable of running such a full offense (has been since at least '14), and he does now that we've landed the most competent offensive mind since . . . it's been a long long time.

    Plays are decided over the course of the week leading up to the game. In the QB room, and later with the entire offense, the coach will discuss what he wants the offense to do when facing specific situations that possibly call for an audible. Plays are constructed within that week's gameplan, put on a playcall sheet, and those will be the only plays that are run during that contest. Any adjustments done during halftime, or the even more extremely rare occasion of b/w drives, are only done within the gameplanning that occurred during that week's worth of work. Typically the first 20 or so plays are scripted (based on how they want to attack the opposition and the QB's favorite plays) as well as two minute drill scenarios if desired. As a HC/QB relationship progresses over the years, they may be able to reach deeper into the playbook with plays not discussed over the course of the week leading to that game depending not only the QBs ability and knowledge, but the overall offense as a whole needs to be in cahoots.

    The basic offensive playcalling process starts with the down & distance, field position, and score to reduce the amount of playcalls, then the QB will ID the formation, personnel, and coverage shell once he approaches the LOS. From there you run the play called by the coach or quickly audible to a play based on the previous week's film study and gameplan which you believe may exploit a weakness. A QB's helmet speaker (one way radio) is shut off by the NFL when 15 seconds are left on the play clock. So a coach (and only one coach may have communication with the QB) is not able to rattle of audibles during that time; it becomes the QBs job if given the power to do so.

    It's a broad, complex subject (gameplanning and playcalling) so I wasn't able to touch on everything you asked. If there's anything more specific you'd like to know, just ask. There's quite a few others that could fill in the blanks I left as well.
     
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  8. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    fake credentials..??

    bit of life advice Son, you cant make that statement when you aren't willing to be honest on these street webs..:)
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2018
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  9. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate that...and I learned a lot. Thank you! I knew it was way different from high school and the little bit of college I coached, so I find that stuff extremely interesting. For example, the headset going off at 15 seconds....I had no idea. I didn't realize it was one-way either.
     
  10. Irishman

    Irishman Well-Known Member

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    For me, this has been your best post. I'd like to see more like it.

    I want to address the portion of your post that I highlighted:

    1) I totally agree!
    2) This is why I consider a plays result more important than the analysis of an individuals performance in creating that result. The play is a summation of what our team did and what the opponent countered with. This includes game planning and game calling on both sides of the ball.
    3) I still think an individual player analysis is very important, but it is only a part of what went on during the play. Other actions that were occurring during the play may have had an effect on a players actions. I value a cumulative comparison of a player analysis in very similar plays much more than a players' single play analysis.
    4) When I watch a game, the play is often quicker than my ability to observe what made it tick. My observation of wither a play was successful or not, is not affected by the speed or the complexity of that play. If we did enough on a play to allow us to continue a series of plays that gets us into the red zone, then I consider all of them successes. Some more than others, but as a group of plays it was a success. If we did enough on a play to allow us to go from the red zone to a score of any kind, then all those plays, as a group, were successful.

    I hope you find how I see and analyze a game meaningful, even if it isn't how you do it.
     
  11. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    Nice. And I’m hoping that “Omaha” calls that I heard from Ryan on that mic video during otas and mini camp was about dummy snap counts.

    Just like Peyton Manning used in his prime with indy and the broncos. Let me see you lift that leg in road settings and the d show it’s hand with 20 plus seconds left on the play clock.

    Otherwise the tempo we will play with will not reach its true ceiling. I want to see us coming set pre snap and making the d declare quickly so a smart qb like Tannehill (and folks his football iq is very high) can check us into a we dictate to the opposition look.

    I particularly like how you said Tannehill has been ready for freedom since 2014. Dead on. We wasted 2 years in lazors neuter the qb o and we at minimum if we were gonna run that had to at least run it with no huddle tempo. But nope we ran the qb into contact by design even.

    We have a marriage of a smart competent qb and a damn good game planner and game manager as a play caller.

    Add in that tempo and a qb that doesn’t beat you with his play and it should be our time.

    It’s all riding on tannehills health. Cause we damn sure gonna have to scrap a lot of stuff if it’s anyone else in that building.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2018
  12. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    This is a fantastic post that everyone should enjoy.

    Now if we could get you to keep it to this, and not be so arrogant then you woukd have tremendous potential around here.
     
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  13. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    Dont push your luck, I'm an arrogant prick, just enjoy the post and move on.
     
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  14. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Ha, you don’t remember the Doug Flutie admitting the Pats had the headset on all the way up until the snap.

    I’m sure that was an isolated incident, many conspiracy theorist’s will claim they did it all the time.

    Still a funny story and the irony of it being NE, is gold!
     
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  15. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Meh, me too.

    Just not on here.
     
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  16. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    I really hate to be fair Lazor who was a smug arrogant s.o.b. that blamed others for his shortcomings. But his offense did show that Tannehill had the ability and skills to be a top flight NFL QB.

    Where Lazor sucked was his playcalling got too predictable when he was behind on the scoreboard, plus he kept RTs handcuffs on when facing blitzes even when it was obvious the rest of the league new about the handcuffs and how to exploit them.

    So Lazor’s years weren’t wasted years like the Sherman years, but were only half wasted.
     
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  17. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    The only thing I think ryan Tannehill gained in his lazor years was he pivoted thru is progressions more efficiently and squared his shoulders to them.

    His footwork got better.

    Other than that I got nothing.

    The Sherman years were known for no skill position talent around the qb and the fullback dive that you could set your watch to with lousaka polite.
     
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  18. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    “ enjoy the post”. Lol

    Talk about pushing your luck..

    No wonder
     
  19. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    Bingo. All I took away from RT with Lazor was improved footwork and a slighty reduced throwing motion. Any other upward tick in performance or production by RT in relation to Lazar is simply post hoc.
     
  20. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    Tannehill was consistently about a 100 passer rating QB under Lazor when the score was tied or the phins were leading. He was about an 85 passer rating QB when Lazor was calling plays when we were behind on the scoreboard.
    Since under Sherman and Gase there basically is no difference in the tied/ahead -v- behind ratings the drop off is in Lazor's hands.

    So with competent playcalling and offensive design (i.e. when we weren’t behind on the scoreboard) Lazor showcased that Tannehill can be a 100 passer rsting QB in this league.

    As you say there wasn’t abig difference in Tannehill’s mechanics so the difference in passer rating between Sherman and Lazor must therefore be mostly attributable to Lazor having a better offensive scheme and playcalling than Sherman.

    Now that Gase is getting more coaches and players suited to his system, I really gelieve Tannehill will show strongly this year. That’s due to improved mechanics/processessing on RT17s part and improved play-calling and hopefully being able to fully implement his offense on Gase’s part.
     
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  21. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    Yeah but the system was driving the qb and not the qb driving the system and that’s the difference
     
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  22. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Only a few QBs can drive a system, Ryan is not one of them. What he can do however is play very well within a good system. Sans 2016 mid season
     
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  23. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    disagree
     
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  24. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    I mean, if he could’ve. Wouldn’t he of already?

    Not a shot at him, I can count maybe 3 QBs I feel can make the system and not the other way around.
     
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  25. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    Drive the system and make the system are two different things.

    Peyton Manning is the only qb I can think of who literally created the system. And that’s because he could process information so quickly.

    An offense that many qbs in that era could never in a million years handle.
     
  26. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    I think you could put Aaron Rodgers/ Russel Wilson and Tom Brady in just about any system and they would thrive .
    Ends there imo
     
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  27. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    I’d agree on Brady and Rodgers
     
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  28. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    Yep. Wilson had a specific system created for him by Darrell Bevell; extra width in pass pro spacing, run and PA heavy to help disperse downfield coverage, etc. He couldn't play in just any one.
     
  29. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    You said Aaron Rodgers couldn’t either a while back. Care to explain which one and why?

    No Gifs necessary.
     
  30. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    I’ve seen entire playoff games played with Wilson working off nothing but pa.

    I can’t tell ya how big a luxury that is.

    Those days are over though.
     
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  31. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    Rodgers isn't a traditional drop back, read progression QB. His strength lies in the west coast, option route offense that McCarthy has designed for him. Every QB needs a system to highlight their strengths and Rodger's would be handcuffed in, say, an Air Coryell derived scheme.
     
  32. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Naturally the coaching staff will install plays/systems to the Qb’s strengths...that goes without saying.

    WC and AC are similar enough that I see no reason he wouldn’t be just fine in the AC. He can make any and every throw there is to be made. Certainly hard for me to agree he would be handcuffed.
     
  33. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    "Naturally"?
    No. Do you watch QB play across the NFL?

    "WC and AC are similar enough".
    Failed again. There are 3 base offensive systems in the NFL and there's a reason for that and it's because all three are different. Just because you can make every throw doesn't mean your suited for just any system.



    I get it. It's hard for you to agree b/c you don't understand offensive systems, route concepts, and so forth.
     
  34. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    - So you do not agree that teams try to out their QB in the plays that suits them best? Okay. I guess we have a ton of idiots running billion dollar franchises.

    - Base? Yea. But the AC and WC are not oil and water. How did I know that and someone like YOU didn’t? Here is a quote from Mike Martz, guessing he knows football just a tad more than yourself.

    Former coach of the St. Louis Rams, Mike Martz, says "Don is the father of the modern passing game. People talk about the West Coast offense, but Don started the 'West Coast' decades ago and kept updating it. You look around the NFL now, and so many teams are running a version of the Coryell offense. Coaches have added their own touches, but it's still Coryell's offense. He has disciples all over the league. He changed the game."

    ^^^ Sounds like he is saying the AC is an updated version of the west coast. Certainly not similar, but certainly not opposites.

    Sometimes when you bend over backwards to be the smartest guy in the room, it makes things like this awkward.

    You can rebuke all you like, but you just said 2 really odd statements...

    I welcome your attempt to save face however!!
     
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  35. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    yep. I agree with that. that's why I was hesitant to put Rodgers on the list. but I believe and always will that pre snap and progression read is the gold standard of qb play. so I'm very partial to it.
     
  36. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    He may not be the best QB in the game in another system, but he would hardly struggle.

    That mobility and arm talent? Anywhere on god’s green earth he will be just fine.
     
  37. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    Dolphins Head Coaches since JJ (not including the interims)
    - Wannstadt
    - Saban
    - Cameron
    - Sparano
    - Philbin

    All of those guys were guilty of trying to hammer square pegs into round holes, especially when it came to QBs.

    A lot of coaches have their ego built into “their system” and they’d rather fail with their system than admit they were wrong and change their system to the needs of the players.

    Their aren’t many coaches who have dramatically changed their systems with success. Don Shula with Unitas then Czonka/Kiick/Morris then Woodstrock then Marino is the only HC who I can think of who had success with such widely different offenses. Also his defenses up until the 80s also showed a fair degree of success with a diversity of looks.
     
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  38. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Apparently Wilson and Rogers are system qbs..

    They’re easily two of the top 5 most talented qbs in the game, both on their way to the hall of fame..

    Seems to me like some are caught up in proving some sort of schematic POV they forget to just evaluate the overall skill set..
     
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  39. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Rather they succeed or not is trivial.

    They all "attempt" to put their QB's in the best position to succeed, some are just better at it than others. The Qb has to do his part also, Kyle Shanahan last year for example had a terrible offense until he started Jimmy G....then all of a sudden he was scoring points and winning games.

    I dont think they need to change an entire system for a QB, just fine tune to the things he does well. Tannehill in PA for example, seems Gase recognizes thats a strength and calls it consistently.
     
  40. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Certainly does seem that way.
     

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