1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

I don't like the preseason

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by tirty8, Aug 4, 2018.

  1. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

    1,325
    1,381
    113
    Jan 2, 2016
    Like many fans across the league, I think that the preseason is way too long. I think that teams need to start taking it upon themselves to shorten the preseason. Our team, in particular, is relying heavily on aging veterans and injury prone players. Some of these players should not see the field until the regular season, and some of these players should have very limited preseason playing time. I think Madden tricks people into thinking that there are going to be vast improvements being made in the preseason, but in truth, I think many of these vets are what they are. I think that there is something to be said for rookies and younger players getting live reps, but the old adage states, "the best ability is availability."

    Here are players I do not need to see much of in the preseason:

    Frank Gore - I would follow the model of Ladainian Tomlinson and give him the entire preseason off.
    Cam Wake - No need to play in the preseason. Maybe a series in the 3rd game.
    Kiko Alonso - Very limited. One series in the 2nd game and a quarter in the 3rd preseason season game.
    Danny Amendola - Limited. Two series in the 2nd game and two series in the 3rd preseason game.
    Robert Quinn - Limited. Two series in the 2nd game and two series in the 3rd preseason game.
    Josh Sitton - Semi-limited. I would keep him on the field as long as RT is on the field.
    Xavien Howard - Very limited. This has nothing to do with him being injury prone. We just can't afford to get him hurt. He is too important to our team. I'd play him a quarter in the 3rd game.
    Reshaad Jones - Very limited. Again, this has nothing to do with his play. I think that the best way to give Minkah live reps is put him out there as a starter across from McDonald. He is too important to the team. I'd play him a quarter in the 3rd game.

    On the other hand, here are some players that probably need some preseason reps:

    RT - I think he needs some live reps. Try and have him leave on a high note with a positive drive.
    Mike Gesicki - I would give him extended reps. I would not call a single pass blocking situation for him while RT is on the field. When the backups are out there, I would call a ton of blocking plays. He seems to be growing, and I think live reps would help.
    Charles Harris - I would give him a ton of PT. The kid is a hard worker, but in all honesty, he might be the 4th or 5th best DE on the roster. Give him the opportunity to move up on the depth chart.
    Lippett, Tankersley, and McTyer - I say we really let these guy's on the field performance decide our depth chart. Let 'em battle it out.
    Kalen Ballage - I suspect that barring injury, he will have a limited role his freshman year. Now may be the time to give him his live looks. I'd play him a lot.
    Raekwon McMillan - He needs live reps but NOT on special teams.
    Devante Parker - It sickens me to say it, but I think he needs the reps. I just don't think that he's where he needs to be at the moment. Fingers crossed that he doesn't get hurt.
     
  2. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

    11,375
    11,392
    113
    Sep 28, 2015
    I’m good with 3 preseason games.

    Teams can treat that 3rd one like they they use the 4th one.

    I want to see Mink get a ton of reps as well as Jerome Baker.

    Ryan? I think it depends on how he looks the first couple of drives. Defenses will be very vanilla as usual. So I’d like to see some shot taking and developing routes.

    I don’t care if he goes 10-12 if it’s for 60 yards. Other words, I want to see some nice mid range passing as opposed to taking what is there in a preseason game.
     
  3. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,652
    67,546
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    Gase says he will pass more in preseason to make decisions about backups..

    Osweiller had a good scrimmage today, he’s been vocal all week, directing his guys, seeing the field well and moving when he needs to, albeit against backups, after three practices I said he should be 2nd team, after this game I’m pretty sure he is.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2018
  4. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

    11,375
    11,392
    113
    Sep 28, 2015
    That actually bodes well for us. Fales is a cool story and all, but you’d rather have an experienced guy with atleast a tad NFL success I would think.
     
    ripper1961 and djphinfan like this.
  5. Brasfin

    Brasfin Well-Known Member

    2,435
    1,672
    113
    Apr 27, 2013
    Brazil
    Preseason is mostly to get guys on the same page and to get used to the details, speed and intensity of game day.
    You just can't get that same feel in practice. It's also good for the coaches to get a better evaluation of the backups and overall depth of the team.

    If they did away with preseason the first 3-4 games of the season would be terrible to watch, IMO, tons of penalties and badly played football, not to mention possible conditioning problems for the players, leading to injuries (which is you you don't like the preseason in the first place).

    Personally, I have no problem with the preason.
     
    Hiruma78, Carmen Cygni and resnor like this.
  6. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    10,488
    12,821
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    I think more than anything, preseason is the time for "bubble players" to prove their worth and make the team- folks like Carroo, Grant and Gesieki should get tons of reps. I would almost prefer it like the NBA does with the summer leagues where young players make the whole roster and they get real game experience in a mini-season with a championship- make it for any player on a rookie contract and let em scrap it out.

    I think it would also be huge for young QB's to get that practice at the NFL level- I would personally watch it to see what our young talent brings to the team. I'd also like it because players with perceived conditioning issues (AKA Parker) get an extra few months of work in to get to that next level.

    Here's how they could do it-

    Week 1- practice
    Week 2- Buffalo (division rival #1)
    Week 3- New York (division rival #2)
    Week 4- New England (division rival #3)
    Week 5- tie-breaker divisional games (basically wild card games for contenders, pride for everyone else)
    Weeks 6-7- eight team playoff (each div. winner is in)
    Week 8- Championship

    Then roll right into the regular training camp after the mini-season ends.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2018
    djphinfan likes this.
  7. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

    11,817
    10,321
    113
    Nov 24, 2007
    Rockledge, FL
    You all do realize that the NFL preseason used to be 6 games, don’t you? Or are you all too young to even know this?

    Back in those days the starters played 3 quarters of the last 2 games to tune up for the regular season and it was do or die for the remainder of the squads to show what they had to make the team.

    Why some of you want to baby these players is beyond me. If you want to make the team, especially with preseason now only being 4 games, you better outplay the man to your left and right
     
    resnor and Tin Indian like this.
  8. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

    1,325
    1,381
    113
    Jan 2, 2016
    Was this in the time of the wishbone when people were on message boards discussing if the forward pass would ever take off?

    Come on, pops. Times have changed. Look at the players lost to injury by the end of the season last year. I wanna baby the aforementioned players, so they are on the active roster.

    I know that back in yesteryear the cutting edge technology was rubbing some dirt on a wound, but that just aint gonna cut it now.
     
  9. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,652
    67,546
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    Big time college football do not have preseason football..

    Pros don’t have to have it, it makes a lot of money, so you can’t get rid of it.
     
  10. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

    11,817
    10,321
    113
    Nov 24, 2007
    Rockledge, FL
    Are you naturally a condescending dumb azz or do you practice at it?
     
  11. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

    2,422
    5,732
    113
    Dec 30, 2017
    Preseason activities, and all 4 games, are an unfortunate necessity. In fact, the entire sport would benefit from more full-paded practices to shore up the two most important fundamentals - blocking & tackling.
     
    Claymore95, Brasfin and Surfs Up 99 like this.
  12. cbrad

    cbrad .

    10,659
    12,657
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    This is what Bill Walsh said about preseason:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2012/08/the-nfls-preseason-farce/261774/
    We have this many preseason games primarily because owners want more money. Couple that with the threat of key injuries as Walsh notes (remember Vick breaking his leg in 2003 when he was in his prime?) and I'm definitely for reducing the number of preseason games.
     
  13. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

    2,422
    5,732
    113
    Dec 30, 2017
    Horrible article with heavy bias and a single quote from a head coach with little to no context. There's also no perspective from the actual football side of things.

    If you really want to know what Walsh thinks of the preseason and it's importance, read his book Finding the Winning Edge.
     
    firedan likes this.
  14. cbrad

    cbrad .

    10,659
    12,657
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    I'd say the Bill Walsh quote provides some perspective from the actual football side of things.
    Are you saying he's contradicting himself?
     
  15. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

    2,422
    5,732
    113
    Dec 30, 2017
    You take your sentence for confirmation, I'll rely on a 500+ page book from the legend.
     
  16. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

    2,422
    5,732
    113
    Dec 30, 2017
    Finding the Winning Edge, page 360:

    Walsh then goes on to explain 20+ bullet points in extensive detail on the significance of preseason.
     
  17. cbrad

    cbrad .

    10,659
    12,657
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    Yeah but my argument was not to completely get rid of preseason, it was to reduce the number of games. Remember, I was responding to your claim that "all 4 preseason games" are an unfortunate necessity. Walsh was saying in the quote I provided that preseason isn't really doing what it's supposed to do, which btw isn't contradicting what you quoted.

    Maybe a different type of quote helps here:
    https://www.newsday.com/sports/foot...l-preseason-reduced-to-three-games-1.13950784
    So according to Goodell, "almost every coach" agrees we can reduce the number of preseason games without seriously impacting the football side of things.
     
  18. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

    2,422
    5,732
    113
    Dec 30, 2017
    They also thought the new CBA was a good idea, too. Instead it has eroded the game of it's fundamentals and in turn has hurt the players bc of lack of coaching, conditioning, and proper skill development.
     
  19. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

    1,325
    1,381
    113
    Jan 2, 2016
    Naturally condescending... I think your lecture about the days of yesteryear was pretty condescending. I fully understand that "rubbing a little dirt" on any injury was cutting edge technology of the time, but unfortunately Dr. James Andrews is not currently applying this herbal remedy to ACL injuries. I implore you to go onto Ask Jeeves or Yahoo search (whichever you use) and search ACL injuries last year. These injuries are both common and devastating to a team. It has absolutely nothing to do with babying these players. I know that back in the day, you could just "walk these injuries off." Perhaps it was because your generation was tougher, or perhaps it may be scientifically impossible to do.
     
  20. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,329
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    How many injuries occur in the preseason?
     
  21. cbrad

    cbrad .

    10,659
    12,657
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    I don't have stats on that, but there's usually at least one high profile injury in a preseason game each year. I mean we lost Raekwon and the Pats lost Edelman last year in preseason games. Going back a bit, Cowboys lost Romo in a 2016 preseason game, Jordy Nelson was lost in 2015 and Sam Bradford in 2014. Kind of supports what Walsh said about the fear of injury to a key player preventing full use of preseason for evaluation purposes.
     
    KeyFin likes this.
  22. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    10,488
    12,821
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    I did some quick searching and a site called Pro Football Logic claims the chances of any position getting injured in any one game averages 4.1%. RB (5.2%) and TE (4.9%) are the highest chances of injury while fullbacks (1.5%) and QB's (2.5%) are the safest. Add it all up and the average NFL player is healthy for 14.2 games out of each 16 game regular season. Only 45% of the league was able to play all 16 games in 2017.

    I know that doesn't answer your question....but it at least gives some context if the site can be believed. It felt fairly legit though since they did a lot of math and calculations.
     
    resnor and cbrad like this.
  23. Brasfin

    Brasfin Well-Known Member

    2,435
    1,672
    113
    Apr 27, 2013
    Brazil
    45% seems like a pretty high number actually, I mean think of the amount of players that were able play all 16 games last year for us lol.
     
    KeyFin likes this.
  24. cbrad

    cbrad .

    10,659
    12,657
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    It's actually about right if you count everyone on the roster:
    https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/mia/2017_injuries.htm

    I'm seeing 24 guys there that were either on injured reserve or out at least one game in the season.
     
    Brasfin and KeyFin like this.
  25. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,329
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    If a guy tears his ACL in a preseason game, there's no guarantee he wouldn't have done that in a regular season game. Knowing how many injuries occur in the regular season doesn't answer my question though. LOL. If people are going to argue that preseason injuries are a significant problem should probably be able to back up the claim with actual numbers.
     
    Brasfin and Carmen Cygni like this.
  26. cbrad

    cbrad .

    10,659
    12,657
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    Simple math: the more games you play, preseason or otherwise, the more likely it is you have an injury to a key player. And I already pointed out key injuries happen in the preseason (including to us). So why not reduce the risk of injury as much as possible without impacting the football reasons for having preseason? According to most coaches you can do that.
     
    tirty8 likes this.
  27. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

    2,422
    5,732
    113
    Dec 30, 2017
    Eliminating even a single preseason game is short-sighted. Not only does it ignore the lack of conditioning and training needed to prevent injuries, it removes progression towards those goals in the process by removing week(s) of preparation to get ready for the long haul of the regular season. Injuries are a part of the game and can happen anywhere (home, weight room, practice field, etc). Week one hits like rocket blast compared to all other action, and taking it easy beforehand is a poor solution.
     
    Brasfin likes this.
  28. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,329
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    If it's simple and it's math, show me the numbers. I keep seeing this argument that preseason games mean more injuries. How many starters are injured in preseason each season? Honestly, third stringers play in these games quite a bit. Guys are fighting for a career, and the shot they need is in real games to prove they got it, and people want to take their shot away. So yeah, it's not necessarily simple math.
     
  29. cbrad

    cbrad .

    10,659
    12,657
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    The math is simple because the probability of injury is non-negative (and for us it was serious with Raekwon), and if coaches say you don't even need to have 4 preseason games, then the decision comes down to comparing a positive risk of injury vs. no risk without an expected negative impact on the football side of things (in those coaches' minds).

    In any case, here's an article from last year after preseason week 3 that helps quantify the risk:
    http://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/245976/the-biggest-injuries-from-nfl-preseason-week-3

    After preseason week 3 you had at least the following starters that missed at least one game due to injury:
    Dolphins LB Raekwon McMillan (torn ACL)
    Redskins LB Trent Murphy (torn ACL)
    Broncos DL Billy Winn (torn ACL)
    Vikings RB Bishop Sankey (torn ACL)
    Lions DL Kerry Hyder (Achilles)
    Seahawks LT George Fant (torn ACL)
    Giants WR Odell Beckham Jr. (ankle)
    Redskins S Su'a Cravens (knee)
    Lions WR T.J. Jones (hamstring)
    Bengals S Shawn Williams (elbow)
    Bills WR Rod Streater (toe)
    Bears WR Cameron Meredith (knee)
    Cowboys LB Anthony Hitchens (knee)
    Chiefs RB Spencer Ware (torn PCL)
    Patriots WR Julian Edelman (torn ACL)

    That's just the ones they list.. doesn't mean there aren't more starters injured. So over 3 games that comes out to a minimum of 5 starters per week you'd expect would get an injury serious enough they miss at least a game (and about half of them missed the season). That's about a 1/3 probability any team will suffer a serious injury to a key player in a single preseason game (and about a 1/6 probability one will miss the season).

    HUGE risk IMO.
     
    KeyFin, Fin-O and mooseguts like this.
  30. Redwine4all

    Redwine4all Well-Known Member

    1,216
    686
    113
    Feb 4, 2016
    But injuries have VERY LITTLE to do with preseason. Preparation has very little to do with preseason. This is ALL ABOUT MONEY. Owners charge full price in revenue that isn't shared, and are only on the hook for a handful of players. The "53" don't get paid until week 1.

    18 games with 2 preseason games would be too easy. BUT...players are going to demand their regular salary for two more games. That's millions and millions of dollars that right now the owners are pocketing. And IMO, the owners believe they can get just as much with television revenue in 16 games as 18, and not have to share the money with the players.

    The injuries, theoretically, would occur in any game...good teams play well early in the season...IMO, its only about money, nothing else.
     
    resnor likes this.
  31. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,329
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    I don't buy the argument that 5 starters a week are being hurt in the preseason. Starters get like, a series per game through the first two weeks. Shakes you might see starters playing a quarter in the third or fourth game.

    Preseason is about money and figuring out which guys are getting cut.
     
    Redwine4all likes this.
  32. cbrad

    cbrad .

    10,659
    12,657
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    Well.. that's the DATA dude. If your assumptions don't fit the data you have to change your assumptions!

    The one unknown there is whether 2017 was an anomaly. A quick google suggests it's not. Here are key injuries from just the 3rd preseason game in 2016:
    http://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/...season-week-3-injury-list-romo-watson-peerman

    Cowboys QB Tony Romo (compression fracture of L1 vertebra)
    Ravens TE Benjamin Watson (torn right Achilles tendon)
    Chargers RB Brandon Oliver (tight Achilles.. season ending)
    Bengals RB Cedric Peerman (fractured left forearm)
    Falcons S Keanu Neal (right knee.. required surgery)
    Colts OG Jack Mewhort (left knee.. 2-4 weeks)
    Ravens RB Kenneth Dixon (torn left MCL)

    That's 7 key injuries (among those ESPN decided to list), again with at least half of them season ending JUST in the 3rd preseason game in 2016, where you'd suspect more key starters are likely to get injured than in other games.

    That's consistent with the estimated 5 per week from 2017. Obviously, we can keep track of it this year to see if this holds.
     
  33. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,329
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    That's not the data, though. It's partial data. You're actually going to argue that the injury occurrence is the same in preseason where starters are barely playing as it is in the regular season where starters are playing complete games?

    That doesn't even make any sense.
     
    Redwine4all likes this.
  34. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

    11,375
    11,392
    113
    Sep 28, 2015
    Let's just all agree that the pre-season is a necessary evil that may benefit to being cut back by a game.

    I just want to see the young guy's get reps and the vets stay fresh. More than anything, just glad football is back in some capacity.
     
    Redwine4all likes this.
  35. cbrad

    cbrad .

    10,659
    12,657
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    ??????

    You asked for data in post #28 on how many starters are injured in preseason. I gave you an estimate based on actual injuries in 2017 preseason games in post #29. Then in post #31 you said you don't believe the data. I pointed out you need to change your assumptions if it doesn't fit the data (that you asked for) and then I showed that the estimate from 2017 is consistent with the 3rd preseason game of 2016.

    So that's precisely the type of data you asked for. And it's partial only in the sense that the estimated injury risk from that partial data is LESS than the actual. Also, never once did any argument I made depend on how preseason injuries compare to regular season injuries. All I ever said there was that the injury risk, whether preseason or regular season, is positive.

    So your post is the one that makes absolutely NO sense.
     
  36. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    10,488
    12,821
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    I researched it as well and planned to list all the players injured in 2017 pre-season, 2016, etc. I'm not finding that list anywhere though because nobody keeps up with 2nd and 3rd stringers plus folks who don't even make the team. We'd have to do that from scratch this season, which means we need to check 32 injury reports today and then update that list every week. That's a lot of work just to say a lot of folks will get hurt.

    Here's an easier way to get the same number. If a average of 55% of the players in the league get injured in 16 games, divide that by 4 to see how many get hurt in pre-season. The answer should be relatively close- around 13.75% of the roster is injured in any given 4-week span (or 3.44% of any roster is injured per week).

    So that's the baseline- you'll have 3.44% get hurt on any given week and the average recovery time is 3 1/2 weeks. That includes everything from sprains to broken bones.

    Here's something else to consider though; our pre-season roster is 100 players, which means around 14 injuries per team for the month of pre-season. 13.75 times 32 teams is 440 people (or 110 injuries per week league wide- or the 3.43 injuries per week, per team). That should be close to a real number answer for ALL pre-season injuries.

    Now, this doesn't consider players getting hurt in games vs. players hurt in practice. But that's the closest we can get without watching film.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2018
  37. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

    2,422
    5,732
    113
    Dec 30, 2017
    ...….........The toll a 16 regular season games takes on players is extreme and you are excluding the postseason run. You're also forgetting to account for the majority of snaps that are given to depth/fringe players in the preseason that doesn't put starters at risk like 2 extra regular season games would.

    And if you want to claim money as the factor in 4 preseason games, might want to consider the elaborate tv deals as a better foundation for that argument as they garner higher contracts for regular season games. Teams do not make nearly as much off of ticket sales and stadium attendance.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 7, 2018
    resnor likes this.
  38. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

    2,422
    5,732
    113
    Dec 30, 2017
    Plain and simple solution to injuries: Revise the CBA to allow for increased conditioning times for camp and preaseason practices. The amount of full-padded practice should also be bumped up.
     
    resnor likes this.
  39. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    10,488
    12,821
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    One other thing I thought about- how do you define injury? For instance, I was a backup punter in high school because I could kick the ball a good 60-80 yards with great hang time....and absolutely no accuracy whatsoever. They even had me work with the soccer coach since I had such awesome power, but I couldn't get the exact kicking motion down for accuracy. The ball was going to go where it wanted to go. LOL. Sometimes it went out of bounds 10 yards past the LOS and sailed over the bleachers.

    I only punted in one game with three total kicks, and I got clipped in the knee on the second kick while fully extended. It did hurt but I played o-line on the very next series....I never missed a snap. They did a scope and didn't find enough damage for surgery, although the ache lingered for months.

    30 years later though, I wake up in tears some mornings from arthritis in that knee- I'm actually thinking about seeing a doctor to finally get it "cleaned up". My point is that it's a football injury that took a good 25+ years to really set in. In sports, we only count the injuries that put players on the bench. There are countless other injuries that we "suck it up and play through" though....and many of them we probably shouldn't.

    Here's another thing to think about. I played thousands of snaps in high school and college at offensive line without a single injury. That's the most violent position on the field- and I walked away with bumps and bruises only. Yet, I played 3 snaps at punter (the safest position) and never fully recovered.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2018
    resnor likes this.
  40. cbrad

    cbrad .

    10,659
    12,657
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    Injury stats back up your claim that the 2011 CBA likely increased injury rates, but it seems like that's true mostly for minor injuries, not as much for severe ones where players missed 1 or more games (Figure 2). And overall injury rates show that the problem goes back at least to 2007 (Figure 1). So your suggestions would probably help, but the problem runs deeper than that apparently.. (wish FO had this data going much further back because I'd like to see long term trends).
    https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2017/truth-behind-rising-injury-rates

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Carmen Cygni likes this.

Share This Page