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Blow it up

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by tirty8, Oct 22, 2018.

  1. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    I know we have a winning record. I know we have a ton of injuries. But unless we have a drastic turn of events, I think it is time.

    I feel confident that we are going to finish in the 8-8 wheel house, but I just don't see us trending in the right direction. Tannenbaum has done a bad job with the finances. We have used both draft capital and money at the defensive end position and have gotten very little in return. From the moment that he has arrived, we have had offensive line issues, and it still is an area of concern. We are old at a lot of positions, and in some cases, we are stuck in contracts.

    The writing on the wall is clear that the Tannehill era is about over.

    Unfortunately for Gase, it just makes sense that he needs to go too. This is what a solid organization would do. It is time to move in a different direction. Imagine if we fire Tannenbaum, hire a new GM and force Gase on him for another year. Despite our new GM not having any allegiance to Gase, he will certainly work with him. The most logical course of action would be to draft a rookie QB. Odds are, we have another mediocre year, and then Gase is given his walking papers. Here is the problem with this situation. A new head coach is going to have whatever QB we draft/sign forced upon him. In recent history, we have lost out on big time head coaching candidates because we have been an organizational mess. I can assure you that a new coach would want to choose his own QB because it is the greatest single factor in determining the success of the team. In a sense, you are kind of seeing that happen with Gase right now. Ireland and Philbin drafted Tannehill. Ireland got fired, was replaced by Hickey, and was then replaced by Grier/Tannenbaum. This led to Gase replacing Philibin, and Tannehill being forced upon him. Now, look at our roster. It is a mixture of Ireland, Philbin, Grier, Gase, and Tannenbaum. So, when you look the dysfunction within our roster, it is clear that it is an issue of too many cooks in the kitchen.

    I dream of a situation where we hire a GM, and the GM chooses a guy that he believes in as a head coach, and they together, acquire a QB that think can lead this team into the future. All of their fates would be tied together from the very beginning. Maybe it is slightly, but not completely, unfair to Gase. But here is the thing, even if Gase is fired, he gets his money. I just think letting the current regime select our next QB will continue the cycle of dysfunction.

    Never has there been a more obvious time to start over.
     
  2. Deus ex dolphin

    Deus ex dolphin Well-Known Member

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    Gase has the rest of the season to sort things out, but he repeatedly tied his fate to Tanny, saying he could win with him, and if Tanny comes back and fails, they both need to go. There is every reason to get rid of Tanny if he comes back and fails to win, or you get rid of him if he can't come back healthy as he is getting paid way too much and has missed too much time over the past three seasons.

    If Tanny misses most of this season with that mysterious should issue, then Ross has to decide if Gase has shown enough to let him find another QB (the draft being the most realistic option) and give him 2-3 seasons to develop the new QB. The Gase offense and his choice of defensive coordinators has not been impressive enough IMHO to give him that time.
     
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  3. Fame

    Fame Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
     
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  4. Fame

    Fame Well-Known Member

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    Actually that's the exact opposite of what "solid" organizations do. But that doesn't fit your temper tantrum narrative so **** the facts, am I right?
     
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  5. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    Wait, wha-what? Are there some sort of facts that I am missing here?

    I would hardly call my post a temper tantrum. If you do not think that Tannehill's time is just about done and that Tannenbaum has made some really bad cap moves, I really don't know what to tell you. Objectively, I think it is looking like those two will probably be gone.

    Here is my point. If you don't think Gase is currently on the hot seat now, you would have to believe that he would certainly be on the hot seat next season, right?

    I just think that it would be crazy to let a guy that is on the hot seat be a pivotal part of the evaluation process at QB. I want to be as close to 100% certain as you could reasonably be that the guy picking my next QB will be there coaching the team for the next four seasons.

    I am curious as to what you think a "solid" organization would do in this situation.
     
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  6. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    We started the season with an amazing defense, a great O line and the best special teams in the league. I realize it stinks that we've had a lot of key injuries but you don't talk about tearing apart a team in week 8 that we leading several NFL categories a month ago before injuries. The team is doing its best to play short handed and work through this mess- I'm really not sure what anyone expects them to do.

    We have three active WR's and all 3 are injured in some capacity. Same story at DE and O line. Our starting QB is out as well and it all sucks, but it is what it is. This isn't the same team from a month ago though, so it's not time to panic. Just let the season play out and we'll see where we're left standing once the dust settles.
     
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  7. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    A solid defense?!?!? Come on. Burke is so out of his league that it is ridiculous. The only time our defense looked exceptional was against the Jets on Sam Darnold's second start. We surrendered 20 points to the Titans when Blaine Gabbert played for part of the game. We "held" the Raiders, one of the biggest messes in the league to 20 points. Other than that, we have given up 27, 28, 32, and 38 points. This defense has never been solid, we just happened to play bad/injured/inexperienced teams. We are spending so much at DE, and getting nothing out of it.

    Robert Quinn - $11.4 mil - 1 sack
    Cameron Wake - $9.6 mil - 1 sack
    Andre Branch - $10 mil - 1 sack
    Charles Harris - $2.5 mil - 0 sacks

    To put things in perspective,

    Jonathon Woodard - $129,000 - 1 sack
    William Hayes - $4 mil - 2 sacks

    Hayes is still tied for most sacks on the team with 2 despite not playing since the Oakland game.

    Now I get it, you will argue that these guys have been banged up. But I am akin to the old adage of "put your money where your mouth is." So I ask you this, if going into next season, you could have Quinn, Wake, Branch, and Harris or $33.5 million in cap space, what would you take? Speaking for myself, I would take the cap space.
     
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  8. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Yea but...that’s on Tannehill, it’s all HIS fault
     
  9. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    That's not at all on Tannehill. I am objectively saying that based on reports, his future in Miami is in serious jeopardy. He would have to come back and ball out. Given the recent injuries at WR, I think that is unlikely to happen. I just think he is out of chances.

    Just for the record, Oswieler's QB rating is 14 points higher than RT's and he makes just south of $1 million per season. This is what I am talking about as far as the ineptitude of the organization. RT has almost $40 million in guaranteed money, and we are getting better production out of a veteran minimum guy.
     
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  10. Fame

    Fame Well-Known Member

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    Since Don Shula, we've completely blown up the franchise and restarted how many times? How much success have we had doing that?

    Good franchises don't blow things up very often. They do very rarely in fact. You're looking for someone to blame, but the front office and coaching staff aren't the problem. We're growing, and there are pains associated with that. We've had some bad luck with injuries and other events like hurricanes. It sucks, but firing everyone isn't the answer. On the contrary it would set this franchise back 2-3 years once again with no guarantee that replacements would be any better than what we currently have. Actually, history suggests they would most likely be worse.

    Unfortunately, sometimes good work leads to a bad outcome. It's life. It sucks. It happens. Blowing it up based solely on one outcome is silly. Remember that Bill Belichick was 25-23 in his first three seasons with the patriots. The reason they didn't fire him after three years is that Kraft understood Bill was a good coach despite their record. Gase is the same way. He may not win five Super Bowls, but he's a good coach.

    The only reason to ever blow things up is if you're getting worse every year. That's not the case here. Not even close.
     
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  11. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    Good franchises do not blow things up because they have solid people in place. We haven't had a good outcome, but I don't think that keeping those coaches around would have resulted in success either. Just look at the level of success of the coaches that we have fired.

    Cam Cameron, Joe Philbin, Wanny, Sporano (RIP). Sporano was the only one to land a head coaching spot in the NFL (interim), and Wanny failed at Pitt. These guys were just not good coaches.

    If Cam Cameron was off winning Super Bowls right now, I would agree with you, but that is not the case.

    You say that Gase is a good head coach. In all honesty, what are you basing this on?
     
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  12. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'm not sold on a complete blow up to be honest. I think when you look at the big picture here, they spent this offseason really trying to build a unit on offense that is similar to something like what KC is doing, like what NE does. I think we're really missing the QB to pull it all together and be the play maker. I think we're missing Sitton more than people want to believe as well. Solidify that OL. Find a QB. Get a downfield threat that isn't just about speed like Stills. Get the guy that Parker should be. From there, I think you've got a potentially deadly offense. To be where we are today, given the crap OL play we get quite a bit (missed blocks, injuries, pre-snap penalties etc. etc), and given the fact we dont really have a QB that can be a game changer I think is a testament to that. If our HC could get out of his own head, and let someone call the game for him, I think that could help as well. I'm not sure a total blow up is needed there, but a change of direction, and infusion of talent at the most important position is.

    As for the defense, they're young. They've got talented pieces. They just need someone who can put it together. If you're going to part ways with Burke, then get an experienced DC who can get these kids playing to their potential. They're not far off, but they need some help, yes.

    I doubt we see a blow up, unless there's a monumental collapse down the stretch here. Even if they end up 8-8, 9-7, or 7-9, I think they like Adam Gase too much to let him go. Whether that's right or wrong. So what I think we see happen... or what I would at least do if I couldn't start fresh... I'd sit Adam Gase down and say look... We hired you to be the guy who fixes this offense, and leads this team. To me, it's becoming clear you can't do both. So, enough of a QB coach, or former inexperienced guy on the staff as your "OC" who likely just gets coffee for you. Lets get rid of those "assistants", and lets hire a REAL OC, who helps you put together the game plan, and who calls plays on gameday. Lets get an experienced guy, who can help the young group of players, and hopefully new young QB. Then Adam, on defense. Burke is out. Again, I want him to go get an experienced, proven DC who can groom these young guys with a solid staff.

    There's alot of talent on both sides of the ball, and we're not getting enough out of it. So to me, if Gase is staying, I hope that's what they tell him. You did it your way with your contacts, and newer guys, now lets get some experience in there to help you, and you need to let them take it over. Similar to what the LA Rams did. If he doesn't want to play along, then I guess that's where we draw the line in the sand.

    Is there anyone on Andy Reid's staff we can bring over. I think our personnel matches up with theirs offensively from a skillset standpoint. We have weapons like they do, we just need a trigger man.
     
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  13. Destroyer

    Destroyer There for every play.

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    Look how long it took the Rams to turn it around. A blow up is warranted because this team has been mediocre at best for far too long.
     
  14. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It's been made alot easier for LA though by the HC and QB in place, throw in an experienced DC too. They stocked up lots of picks too.

    That's the other thing I'd be doing right now. unload some of our big cap hits if you can. Hard to throw in the towel when you're 4-3 though, so I doubt it happens.

    I feel like on Sundays we're watching a team that is good, that has potential to be alot better, but one that consistently shoots itself in the foot, and isn't prepared in some way shape or form, and that's usually in multiples. I think Adam Gase really made a mistake when hiring his staff. They might be his guys, and the guys he wanted, but I don't think they're the guys he needed. Alot of first time head coaches make that mistake. I think he should go the route of experienced guys helping him out, and helping to build around the young talent they've acquired to ensure they're prepared and ensure you're getting the most out of them.
     
  15. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    This topic comes up every year, multiple times a year. We need to upgrade on a few areas, no need to go nuclear.

    Even if Adam Gase was let go at the end of the season, the new head coach would have a group of good players he can work with.

    On defense he would need to find a MLB and pass rusher.

    On offense he would need to find a WR, guard, center, and quarterback.

    Some of which could be addressed in free agency and draft in one offseason.
     
  16. Fame

    Fame Well-Known Member

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    We are a better team now than we were three years ago before he got here. I mean, there are tons of other reasons such as his record, his decision making (Ajayi trade), and his work ethic. But honestly, the most important thing is that we're clearly getting better. If you can't see that then you just don't want to see it, but we're miles ahead of where we were with Cameron, Philbin, Wanny, Sparano or any of our interim coaches.

    We just need time and better players. We need a great QB. We need a healthy line. We need a healthy defense. We can't solve those problems by cleaning house. Addition by subtraction doesn't always work. Sometimes it's just subtraction.
     
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  17. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End Club Member

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    I'm telling you guys, and I've been saying it, Fix the Offensive Line and things will improve dramatically. The Dline was playing well until we got the injury bug running rampant but the Wide Nine thing needs to be ditched ASAP! It leaves too many gaps that can be exploited and unless you've got the D tackles and thumping Linebackers to handle it, which we do not, you're going to have problems defending the run, which we are. We have all we need at skill positions, QB excluded, they just don't look right because the lines are awful and yesterday they were particularly bad.
     
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  18. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    While I 100% agree, it's hard to judge 5 games vs 2 as a sample size. Tannehill's numbers were pretty darn good until Cinci and he simply hasn't played enough this season to make up for it. However, I'll also point out Oz was solid yesterday in a loss and that's a very good sign.
     
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  19. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    Here is the thing. I promise you that if you went back to this very message board three years ago, you would see people pounding on the table to improve the o-line. The fact of the matter is that Gase and Tannebaum have yet to fix it. I just don't understand how anyone would think that all of a sudden it would suddenly sink in that we need to take this part of the game seriously.

    If you look at the Tannenbaum blue print, you can see why we are in the situation that we are in. Addressing the line on both sides of the ball involved the same plan. Find a player from a team that is trying to get rid of him because he is expensive, aging, and coming off an injury, and then give him a big contract. If you look at Sitton and Quinn both being banged up, it really isn't that surprising. Not only does it hurt losing those guys, but keep in mind, we could have used that money to lock up some of our own free agents. Sitton played one game. James has been a staple of the offense. Imagine investing that money in a long term answer like James. If we lose him in free agency, we are going to be held back even further at the line.

    This may very well be the same mistake twice. Gase, understandably so, wanted to bring in Cutler to save the season last year. His evaluation that Cutler was able to do so coupled with Tannenbaum's willingness to pay Cutler cost us in terms of play acquisition power. Right there is $20 million that could essentially have signed James or possibly Landry (on a more reasonable cap number with one year left on his rookie deal).

    Trust me, Chris Grier has been working in the front office for a long time. You are far more likely to get the Dallas Thomases or Isaac Assiatas of the world than you are of getting a real replacements. They have had three years. It was an area of concern when they arrived. It is still an area of concern.
     
  20. bigballa2102

    bigballa2102 Well-Known Member

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    I think it was strahan said it perfectly on the morning show yesterday about RT as he is a 24 million dollar qb next yr? he is playing for money not fopr his progress on the field. (something along those lines)

    My question is, IS EVERYONE WILLING TO KEEP RT FOR 24 MILLION NEXT YR? to me its entirely too much money, we can get the same production and same outcomes and not take a huge hit to the cap and get o-line help and some defensive help.

    just a thought, now if RT comes back from this injury dilemma and balls out maybe that can be discussed later, but watching Brock the last 2 games its hard to justify to me that RT is worth the money. That is keeping all biassed opinions out of the conversation if this scenario was any other team i would feel the same way.
     
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  21. jdallen1222

    jdallen1222 Well-Known Member

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    Is this the laundry cycle fan club?
     
  22. Deus ex dolphin

    Deus ex dolphin Well-Known Member

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    If you value stability that much, then we are looking at giving Gase a chance to pick another QB in the draft (or maybe Bridgewater). Outside of Tanny returning and becoming a dynamic playmaker at QB this season, you have to hit reset on the starting QB for 2019. That buys Gase a contract extension and another 2-3 years at least.

    The danger of stability is ending up with the next Jeff Fisher, a coach who might have a playoff season here and there, but will mostly get you 7-9 wins every season.
     
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  23. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    Your eyes are deceiving you. The roster, in some places, has improved, but look a year or two out, and there are giant holes that we are going to need to fill.

    -The offensive line has not been addressed.
    -Sitton will have one year left on their contract.
    -We have invested heavily at DE and it is still our biggest need. Wake will be retiring soon. Quinn has a big contract, back issues, and a lack of production. Branch is highly overpaid. Harris has not been good. We have put so much in and gotten so little out.
    -Amendola will be on the last year of his contract next year. We will need to replace him.
    -Parker is on borrowed time. We will need to replace him.
    -Wilson will have two years left. So there is a little time left.
    -Essentially WR is better but still an area of need.
    -Frank Gore is nearing the end. Drake is best served as a rotational guy. Maybe Ballage is the guy. Maybe we need to get better at RB.
    -Kiko is approaching 30, has a history of injuries, and a big cap number in 2020, so there is a real chance that next year is his last year under contract. We will need to replace him.
    -We are already thin at LB.
    -We are probably replacing RT.

    All of these positions are just not built for sustained success. Now, look at the DB unit. That is how you build a roster. Howard, Minkah, and McCain are all solid players that should be Dolphins for a long time. Jones's contract expires when he is 33, and we can get out of it when he is 32. There is a real chance that his contract will expire at the exact time that his play will begin to diminish. TJ McDonald is getting a very reasonable salary and is under contract until 2021. We can get out from under his contract in 2020 and 2021. That is how you build a roster. A better team is not a whole bunch of bandaids at a whole lot of positions.
     
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  24. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End Club Member

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    Look I agree. They have not taken those interior line positions seriously enough. They brought in Sitton and Kilgore and its par for the course here both on the wrong side of 30. Most teams can find servicable or better guards\centers later in the draft, we don't seem to be able to for whatever reason. Scouting? I was hopeful Asiata would improve but he cant even get off the practice squad it seems.

    Anyway my point was and is they can't ignore it any longer if they want to win games. You can have all the skill position guys you want but if you cant block how are you going to use them? If you cant stop the run or pressure the QB what good are your elite corners and safeties, even the best cant cover all day on a given play.

    I like to bring up Dak Prescott. Everybody was gaga over Dak. This year he doesn't have his complete all world line and now everyone wonders what happened to Dak? Nothing. He's the same guy he always was, his line isn't as effective opening holes for Elliot and doesn't put an impenetrable wall up in pass blocking.
     
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  25. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End Club Member

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    I'd entertain the idea of bringing Bridgewater in if he was available. Won't hurt to kick the tires.
     
  26. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    I would keep everything in tact. It took three years but Gase has built his starting team. And then injuries decimated it. Spend free agency building up the depth with affordable players and use the draft for BPA. And hire a witch doctor to lift the curse of bad luck we have had for two decades
     
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  27. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    THIS!!!! You are so right, and it frustrates me to no avail. I feel like most teams can snag mid round o-linemen with some degree of ease, and we wind up with the likes of Isaac Asiata, Billy Turner, and Dallas Thomas. We are hemorrhaging draft capital, and again, getting nothing out of it. Instead of being solid young players that we get on the cheap, they are not even on the roster. These are huge swings and misses. They aren't even depth guys. This speaks volumes of our front office. Chris Grier has been around for a long, long time. Where was he when we drafted these disasters. Tunsil is their big saving grace, and he fell into our lap like a gift from the heavens.
     
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  28. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    To be frank though, every single team faces these types of issues. Every one. It's the QB that matters. Good QB play plasters over many issues. Mediocre QB play exposes the team when the issues happen. We do not have the QB we need on the roster right now.

    As for "blowing up" that's a subjective term. At this point, I am fine with tossing Gase out. He brings little to the table that I can see. He wrongly hitched his wagon to the likes of Tannehill, Smokin Jay, Matt Moore and the Brock Lobster. That's an indictment. That's damning. I am over him at this point. Need a new QB, need to unload bad contracts. Need some FO restructuring for giving out bad contracts.

    But to be realistic, we aren't going to be wholesale trading/cutting guys, and that's fine. Until we get the right QB we are treading water and playing second fiddle to the Patriots yet again while the Bills and Jets get rookies up to speed.
     
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  29. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    That's like saying because the milk in your fridge is sour, we need to immediately kill all cows to protect humanity. One thing has absolutely nothing to do with the other.
     
  30. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    We don't need to blow it up. We need an great player at the Quarterback position. That is the one position that will make us a contending team on a yearly basis. I don't just mean Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady or Drew Brees for that matter. Those guys are generational. They are at the very top. No...Carson Wentz, Ben Roethlisberger, Cousins, Stafford, Cam Newton, Philip Rivers, Russell Wilson, Matt Ryan....These are QB's that can give their teams a chance to win on any Sunday no matter who they are playing. The common trend between all of them is that it doesn't matter who is injured, where the injury is, how bad the O Line is, or how bad the defense is. These type of QB's find ways to win, they find ways to make plays happen and that my friends is the difference between their teams and our team. Forget their records W/L stuff. San Diego is right in the mix every year, Rivers has his bad moments, but he also has the ability to go and beat KC in their stadium if he feels like it. Russell Wilson can beat you at any time, Matthew Stafford can beat you at any time. If you have Cam Newton on your team...You have a chance. The same cannot be said for anyone that has played the QB position for us since Marino retired. It's really that simple as far as what the actual solution is to solving this. We have to draft a Quarterback that become the face of this franchise. That Quarterback doesn't necessarily have to be Rodgers, Brees, or Brady (as there only one of them). But.....He does have to be in the same tier as the guys I listed above. Ryan Tannehill is not that guy, and neither is Brock Osweiler. Our season will only go as far as those two take us. Right now....It's looking like 7-9, 8-8. The same record we've had virtually every season ever since Marino retired. We are mediocre without a legitimate signal caller, and once we find "that guy" we will become a contending team on a yearly basis. That is what all of us ultimately want I think. I also think because we don't have a great player at that position, it makes watching and following this team that much more painful. I think that is why these losses sting as bad as they do.
     
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  31. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Yea i mean....did you see what Cam Newton did yesterday?? If a Miami Dolphins QB did that just once this board would cream in their whities.
     
  32. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    I just don't think the whole "roster overhaul" approach is really all that necessary. The problem has been inconsistent and unreliable play at quarterback since 2000. It's time to draft another one in the first round, and we need to do so until we find our guy.
     
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  33. jdallen1222

    jdallen1222 Well-Known Member

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    I feel the need to. We hosted the Raiders and won. Forget week 4.
     
  34. Redwine4all

    Redwine4all Well-Known Member

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    Good luck getting a rational answer. LOL.
     
  35. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    That's the issue though. People are blaming this on injuries, and injuries are definitely a legitimate excuse. Yet.....when you have security at the quarterback position (for whatever reaskns) teams are able to overcome injuries.
     
    bigballa2102 likes this.
  36. Dorfdad

    Dorfdad Well-Known Member

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    Ross isn’t going to fire tannebomb, tannyhillary, or Gasy so forget it he has his built in excuse now injuries again. 2-3 years Gase has the magic injury last is why we lose not my ****ty play calling or mismanagement of talent.

    This team is average 8-8 15-17 pick and mid range free agency pickups.
     
    bigballa2102 likes this.
  37. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End Club Member

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    Palm Bay Florida
    And what makes that really strange to me is they seem to do very well with other positions late in the draft. Why all the whiffs on interior linemen?
     
  38. Agua

    Agua Reality: Try It!

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    Gase has to get an experienced, proven DC next year. Burke is just in over his head.
     

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