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End of Season Thread

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Destroyer, Dec 16, 2018.

  1. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Again, of course when the oline struggles Tannehill struggles. That is the same for every damn QB.

    As to the Stills overthrow, I think you're overstating things. Tannehill doesn't throw a bad deep ball, and that one was so far over, there had to have been something else at work there.
     
  2. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    I mean, it's not - or at least not to the degree that it affects THill. Of course every single QB would wish to be lined up behind a quintet of all pros, but many have to make do with makeshift lines. We are not unique in having some kind of horrific line, but other QBs can and absolutely do more to mitigate problems. Tannehill gets swallowed by them. It's the old story, he just doesn't overcome problems. If everything is perfect, he can do some things. As soon as it's not, he falls apart.
     
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  3. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

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    Exactly. You said it better than I did.

    He's too mechanical in his approach to overcome on-field adversity on a consistent basis.
     
  4. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Well, again, I disagree a little. Sometimes the line gives decent blocking, and sometimes it's terrible. The problem, still, is that it isn't one position that's iffy, it's multiple. It's not like Tannehill can assume that the RG is going to be the player that struggles, and kind of plan for it. It's just meltdowns by different players shakes at different times, but sometimes together...and that's when he really struggles. When multiple oline players mess up, you get a complete mess.
     
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  5. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    But, I agree, I'd like a more dynamic player. But again, what player is legitimately available that is better than Tannehill? I wouldn't have complained if they'd moved up for one of the QBs in the draft, but they didn't.
     
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  6. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

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    I don't believe I've seen the jailbreak scenario that you describe as often as your comments lead to believe. Watch some of the upper echelon QB's - they'll change the protections, they'll call out of the play into a screen, or they'll fire a bullet into their hot read.

    As to your second comment - unless they take a chance on somebody in the 2019 Draft, then there really are no other options.
     
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  7. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I'm just saying that often you see pressure on Tannehill even without blitzes. Like that sack where Tannehill ran into James...that may have been a blitz, but James totally whiffed his assignment, and ended up right in the middle of the pocket...when Tannehill tried to move left and up to avoid pressure from the right, he ended up right on top of James.
     
  8. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Yeah to be clear, it's not 100% on THill here, and also not 100% on the line. It's a combo. But ... I see QB's like Russ Wilson and Aaron Rogers make plays to escape bad situations semi-regularly. You see guys like Peyton and Brady and Brees make calls, audibles, shifts to put blockers in better positions to pick things up.

    All those guys? They still get sacked. It happens. A good OL is a huge benefit, having a porous OL is a big downside. Definitely and no argument. But all things considered, I'd prefer to have that playmaker under center who isn't taking a huge hit every other drive.

    And that's the crux. THill just isn't good enough imo, but replacing this offseason? Will be tough.

    Bridgewater is probably the only obvious day 1 starter who has long term potential. You might be able to wring a better season out of a Flacco, but blah. Maybe Foles will be drawn to a starting position ... or we can get funky and see if maybe Wentz can be pried away (hah, fat chance). Draft-wise, we will need to see our position and who all declares. If Herbert and Haskins don't declare, it will be thin AF.

    That said, I am of the opinion that we will be better off long term if we just get it over with and cut ties with Tannhill. Maybe we don't get a clear upgrade, but I don't want to be stuck in the mud anymore. If we have a **** 2019 (with or without) that QB class will be set up to be a big one.

    The one big factor working for us here is also that so many teams are either heavily invested in a veteran, or just drafted a guy in the last 2-3 years. The number of teams looking may be lower, and with a potentially poor crop of FA/Draftees, maybe teams like the Giants try to soldier on.
     
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  9. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Bottom line, tannehill can’t deal with pressure on the road and can’t make a few plays to help his team win.. he succumbs to the pressure because he has mental and physical limitations that keep him from escaping a conflicted pocket..

    Experiment is over, he’s offers 0 off the script..

    Jmo, but we have enough sample size to determine this, it’s been predictable for about four years.
     
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  10. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He doesn’t see the breakdowns in the oline in enough time to do something about it, some qbs have that ability..

    I saw him on Sunday see the blitz, look the player dead in the eye, and he still turned his back to him thinking and trusting the player would be picked up..

    That’s not a good sign Res, it’s like throwing the wide receiver screen when it’s clearly covered.
     
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  11. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    That's how you're supposed to face the blitz as a pocket passer. You anticipate that your teammates do their job and go through your reads. You don't anticipate they are going to fail or you will never stay in the pocket and you will never go through your reads
     
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  12. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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  13. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Watch the Minnesota game. There are two sacks that are Tannehill's fault. I tjink its the first and something like the 7th where it seems he just thinks "not again" and just takes the sack without even trying to do something to avoid it. There are two complete jailbreak sacks where he gets the ball and he becomes a punt returner facing two or three defenders side by side all free and clear and charging at him. He has about four sacks where he avoids the first rusher only to turn into the second for the sack. Out of 9 sacks I counted only two, maybe three that were avoidable
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2018
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  14. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    We are a half of percentage point from being the 32 nd team in football on third down..

    This trend has followed tannehill his whole career..

    You only get about 11 drives a game..need a qb who understands situational football better and has the ability to convert a few of those situations by any means possible..Ryan has not shown the propensity to understand this concept, in 7 years.
     
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  15. Losferwords

    Losferwords Member

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    Dude is a coach killer... flat out.

    Career loser who, for some inexplicable reason, this regime has wed themselves too and brought in zero competition to boot.

    It's really astounding how poorly this organization is run.
     
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  16. RGF

    RGF THE FINSTER Club Member

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    Many will think I'm completely nuts but one person I would love to give total control to and even coach again if he wants to is............

    Bill Cowher.
     
  17. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I would be very down with that..

    Can’t believe that guy hasn’t got the itch..

    That’s a little bit of red flag right there though ya know?
     
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  18. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    We don't need a guy half assing it.
     
  19. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    3rd and 9 isnt situational football.

    Its a time where athletes make plays. The defense knows you have to throw to convert. If you cant block the rush or win your matchups on the outside, I don't see what you'd like to happen.
     
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  20. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    We have enough of a sample size to not narrow this ugly consistent stat to 3rd and 9.
     
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  21. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    I totally agree. I don't know if people actually watch the games sometime.
     
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  22. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores & Team Tua

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    IMO, our 3rd down percentage is just a symptom of a much bigger, fundamental, problem with our offense. We have had some very nice chunk plays this year that has kept us in some ball games, but it seems like a lot of the time our offense is very inconsistent. I would be interested in the data that shows how many 3rd and long plays the Dolphins have and then compare it to the winning teams. My guess is that we are in 3rd and long more than a lot of teams.
     
  23. RGF

    RGF THE FINSTER Club Member

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    I agree. But he always said he would need total control to even think about returning. Maybe no other team is willing to do that. That was years ago, not sure if he would still consider it now. Gruden , for the longest time, denied missing the sidelines. Things change.
     
  24. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Yeah. The problem isn't 3rd down to me but 1st and 2nd. Still for playing with 2nd and 3rd string OGs and Centers and Jesse Davis playing out of position at OG I'm not sure what kind of results I should be expecting. Personally, im impressed with the way Gase keeps this team competitive with all the injuries. Three years straight of being top ten in games lost to injury and yet he made the playoffs one year, still has us in the hunt this year, it's actually pretty impressive. I really want to see what he can do with a team that's relatively healthy just once
     
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  25. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores & Team Tua

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    Dude, I don't know. Other teams get decent production out of their linemen. Not everyone begins their career as a starter. Some players actually develop their technique and get stronger with playing time. What do ours do? They decorate Larson's locker area in celebration for him getting down field and making a block. Really?!? The guy did his ****ing job for once. They sure have low standards. No wonder they didn't know what the hell to do against the Vikings blitz. They have been linemen for years and they get confused by a simple stunt because they didn't practice it during the week? They can't figure out what's going on when they get to the sideline and talk about it and look at those ****ing tablets? Give me a break. Tannehill said it's the mental errors that pisses him off. Well, he's not the only one.
     
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  26. Itsdahumidity

    Itsdahumidity X gonna take it from ya

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    Nail on the head Rock. He absolutely does what he's told and that's not a good thing when it comes to being coached by gase. I mean... WhereTF ARE THE BLITZ BREAKOFFS!!? Defenses are showing the blitz. Ball gets snapped, yup they're blitzing.

    And yet this genius has all route runners going about their business, never looking at the defenders, never realizing that they have to break off their routes to help the qb. Not that THill is capable of beating blitzes, but you catch my drift. Gase, the smartest one in the room? Yeah right.

    And now others(D.Hyde) are finally noticing Gase' character flaw in excuse making. Anyone starting to get why Elway bad mouthed gase(allegedly) around the league?
     
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  27. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    according to mando this is the breakdown for who is at fault for each of the sacks. I havent gone back to look at the sacks and while I did notice alot of missed blocks by the backs I thought the interior was worse then he says

    "I looked at all nine sacks the Dolphins allowed and the breakdown is as follows:

    Ju’Wuan James allowed two sacks.

    Kenyan Drake gave up two sacks in failing to pick up blitzers.

    Ted Larsen gave up one sack.

    Kalen Ballage gave up one sack in failing to pick up a blitz.

    Nick O’Leary gave up a sack.

    Mike Gesicki gave up a sack.

    Durham Smythe gave up a sack.

    https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/armando-salguero/article223259250.html"





    So according to him

    linemen to blame 3x
    tight ends 3x
    running backs 3x

    7 different players, 5 giving up 1 sack and 2 giving up 2 sacks each

    if these numbers are correct and im not sure they are the offensive line isnt as much of a culprit as people making it out to be. Instead its the tight ends and running backs
     
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  28. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    If that is actually the case, that would make sense. Except I'd have to see if it was similar the last few years when Tannehill has been sacked a ton before I'd be willing to let the oline off the hook.
     
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  29. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Yeah me too. Plus I don't trust mando and his analysis. When I watched the sacks two days ago it seemed the oline was a bit more responsible but maybe I missed something.
     
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  30. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores & Team Tua

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    I don't have a solid understanding on what everyone is supposed to do, so I am thinking it's both Tannehill (no feel for the rush, and maybe the wrong protection call), and the OL not executing the protection call. Obviously, I am not excusing the linemen, but I am also pointing the finger at our coaching. If things are out of sync then it could be bad for everyone. Especially Tannehill. To me, this is on everyone, but it starts with our coaching.
     
  31. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    It would make sense in that we're always wondering why our line is so terrible with backups, as opposed to other teams who have backups seeing significant time. But, I've watched linemen get abused far too many times for me to really but into that it's not the oline but the backs and tight ends. It may have been that in the last game, but I find it difficult to believe that it's been that way all season.
     
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  32. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores & Team Tua

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    I think Gore was the reason why we didn't see it as often and why he was in the game during critical situations. I think our offense ran better with him in the game. It didn't hurt that he has awesome vision and can hit holes that others don't see. With Drake injured, and Bellage still learning who to pick up, we were bound to be exposed.

    As for our linemen. I remember watching a video of a coach rave about the zone blocking scheme. What I found interesting is that he said that the talent doesn't have to be as high as with the other schemes, and you could find good zone blocking linemen in the later rounds. I don't know if what he is saying is true, but it might make sense on why we don't draft guys higher. I think I also read somewhere that with the read option the scheme changes. Maybe that is where we making the mistake. Perhaps we should just stick with the basics and learn to that right, first. Our run game might benefit.
     
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  33. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    “Tannehill has not been a good third-down quarterback this season. He’s completed 54.2 percent of his third down passes. His quarterback rating on third down is an unremarkable 75.2.

    More?

    “The Dolphins have converted 28.8 percent of their third downs this year when Tannehill passes the football. That is last in the NFL among the regular starting quarterbacks for every team.”

    And if you think that problem applies to anyone asked to trigger the Miami offense, you’re wrong. The Dolphins converted 42.6 percent of their third downs this year when Brock Osweiler threw the pass.

    This does not mean Osweiler is better than Tannehill. He is not.


    Read more here: https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/...ndo-salguero/article223368115.html#storylink=


    Those numbers have been consistent no matter the coach Ryan has had over the course of his career..
     
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  34. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    This year, which is the only relevant year to me currently, I'd argue it's mainly been an issue of 3rd and long.

    People here overestimate what a scheme can or cant do IMO not meaning you btw just generally.

    Right now I see talent/injury problems
     
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  35. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Our rushing average is top 5 in the league..

    Our Qb has been one of the worst third down qbs in football during his entire career here..

    This is not a coincidence..

    His weaknesses, and the demands of the down by the qb to convert, match up very very well..
     
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  36. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    How many of the 3rd down fails are due to offensive line, how many are due to receivers not getting open or dropping the pass. How many are 3rd and 7 or longer. How many are 3rd and ten or longer. Once you get me those numbers we can figure out Tannehill's numbers
     
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  37. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    Eh, I'd disagree to an extent. He's a just slightly above average QB in my eyes. He's no worse than what most playoff teams have IMO unless you're talking about the elite.

    I don't really care who the QB is when you're down to Stills, a bust like Parker and street FA you're not going to be successful. Especially with 3/5 the line playing ****ty.

    If there were actually a way to anticipate where the breakdown would be Id agree. If the pressure mainly came from one spot...all on him.

    How do you suggest a QB anticipate the rush at all when multiple linemen fail 1 v 1 blocks?

    Again...I dont think Tannehill is great but if you want to replace him you need something better than throwing a dart at a board and hoping.
     
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  38. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    If you're right about that, then there's something fundamentally wrong with Tannehill mentally. The pressure is the same from any given team in Miami or Seattle for most of the game (sure, maybe defenders get tired in the 4th in Miami...other than that, it's the same). The bigger problem I see is that the line just can't deal with stunts and Drake is not blocking at the same level he did last year.

    Without Grant and Wilson on the field, there's simply no reason not to blitz on obvious passing downs and that's what we're seeing...a QB behind a patchwork line who struggles with pressure trying to throw to receivers who struggle with quick separation. It's just not a recipe for success.
     
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  39. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

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    This is getting to be a broken record already. It's the same conversation for almost 8 years now because first-and-foremost Tannehill fundamentally is the same player he's always been.

    Make no doubt the roster is still better than in his first few years. Stills and Parker (while underachieving) are talented WR's. Brice Butler has been making plays lately. Kenyon Drake is a burner who the coach doesn't want to use consistently - hell Gase let Bolden and Ballage rot on the bench in favor of a fossil with cleats.

    Ryan will look good when everything around him is clicking (who doesn't?). Ever notice his best performances come when the run game is humming? Beyond that he's middling and can't affect the game in way that will account for our own OL's weakness, any injuries to skill players, or play chess with the defense. This is not likely to change as much as this team needs it to.
     
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  40. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    AFC Playoff QBs this year: Brady, Mahomes, Big Ben, DeShaun Watson, Rivers and probably either Luck or Jackson. The only one you could argue is Jackson, who at least for the moment seems to be elite in at least one area (feet).

    If we want THill comparables, you are likely looking at Andy Dalton and Marcus Mariota.
     

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