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Who's the Next Coach?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Vertical Limit, Dec 31, 2018.

  1. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    Here’s what I don’t understand. You fire the coach who’s showed some promise but has been capped by injuries and bad drafting to take a chance at someone who looks good because they’ve got a ton of talent on offense(KC) or defense(Bears). Maybe it’s just that I simply don’t trust Ross or any decision he or anyone he’s hired will make.
     
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  2. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores & Team Tua

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    How did you feel about Gase's offensive system? Do you think he had a winning formula?
     
  3. Serpico Jones

    Serpico Jones Well-Known Member

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    Mike Munchak turned down Dolphins interview request according to NFL network.
     
  4. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores & Team Tua

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    I read somewhere that for family reasons Denver is the only team he is considering. I can appreciate that.
     
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  5. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    I don’t know. I think he had a subpar QB and a subpar OL most of his tenure. Starting this season out, we seemed to have enough playmakers and OL to overcome RTH’s deficiencies and then the injury bug hit. Our level of blocking and playmaking was noticeably worse as these things happen.

    I don’t know whether Gase will be a good or great coach. I know we made it to the playoffs under him. Whoever we hire will be unproven with the same base issues Gase dealt with. At some point you have to evaluate, is it the coaches, the GM/drafting or the owner? I don’t think Gase was the biggest issue.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2019
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  6. Serpico Jones

    Serpico Jones Well-Known Member

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    Kris Richard is getting a second interview with the Dolphins according to CK.
     
  7. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    Well spotted!

     
  8. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Considering it was Gase determining our QB and OL personnel, I think it's safe to say he was at least part of the problem, not the solution.
     
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  9. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores & Team Tua

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    Considering his time with each team (Denver, Chicago, Miami) what makes him special or not? Is he unique? Is he a guy who system and play calling can take a team all the way? Can what he brings to the table be fairly easy to duplicate. Would it be worth duplicating?
     
  10. Dorfdad

    Dorfdad Well-Known Member

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    Richard or Rizzi is the pick unless Ross goes for Harbaugh behind the scenes.

    Ross is looking for a face if the franchise kinda coach to sell it. I’m guessing Rizzi gets passed over and Richard is the new hire and gets a 4 year contract.

    Miami will love his attitude and infectious manner, but he needs to hire some copitent coordinators to help him with his inexperience.

    Also going to need a good free agent QB and draft one next year

    I’m ok with it considering our options, but I want my head coach to be the coach not the play caller etc. get good coordinators please!!!
     
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  11. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    .

    You might be right. Or was he playing the hand that he was dealt? Everything looked good to start the season. He can’t control injuries. Who’s decision was it to put the viability of this OL on a veteran guard who has a history of injuries?
     
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  12. Miamiforlife

    Miamiforlife Active Member

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    Please No dennis allen. He didnt do well for the raiders.
     
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  13. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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  14. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    He decided to stick with Ryan yet another year. He had roster control. He is the one that attempted to skimp on OL believing it wasn't necessary based on his experience with Manning and Denver. He's also the one who decided to heavily feature smaller guys who hadn't been used so often. Injuries aren't always freak occurrences.

    I think that most critics did their best to take the injuries into account while forming an opinion of Gase, and that we still felt he was coming up short regardless. Offensive production was atrocious, defense was record breakingly bad. The injuries were a contributor, but really just a convenient excuse for other shortcomings and failures to many of us.
     
  15. mooseguts

    mooseguts Well-Known Member

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    Matt Lefluer just became the Packers HC.
     
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  16. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores & Team Tua

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    I didn't know why, but I am not excited about this.
     
  17. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    I thought roster decisions were Tannenbaums/Grier’s? If I’m mistaken then I’ll retread part of my comments. My main thing is I don’t think you’re gonna see success or build a winner when you don’t fully commit to 4-5 years to a coach. I also don’t know how you’re gonna be successful when your drafts are shotty, trades don’t pan out(Quinn) and FA signings end up injured(Sitton).
     
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  18. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End Club Member

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    Tannenbaum, Grier AND Gase had a say in players but Gase had final say on the roster.
     
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  19. Miamiforlife

    Miamiforlife Active Member

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    K. Richard. Or ricci.
     
  20. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    ESPN had an interesting article on Patriots defenses and how the "bend but don't break" is kind of a misnomer. In essence, it boiled down to the Pats scoring so often it pins teams deep (kickoffs vs punts) and forces them to accrue more yardage, plus they get early leads so often they can go into prevent mode earlier than others. In essence, in the stats that really count, they are a solid unit.

    The Pats/BB tree overall has been pretty much a wasteland (I don't value Saban's NCAA career as we are not an NCAA team). Flores is an interesting guy though from looking into him. If I was making a hire I'd definitely want to see how he would incorporate lessons from his tenure in New England while being true to himself and not just being a generic attempt at a copy/paste. I don't need him to be Andy Reid in front of the press, but not being Matt Patricia would help. That kind of thing.

    Interesting, I would not have pegged him as a likely candidate. Seems they would prefer to keep Pettine as DC too. Definitely an attempt to catch the McVay lighting in a bottle.

    Looks like the Jets are going HARD after Baylor coach Matt Rhule. That would be a fairly left field hire. It's been a minute since a college guy had a shot, will be interesting to see if he has success early if that might reopen the pipeline heavily.
     
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  21. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    :confused2:

    That article was literally about how good Gilmore was on a island and how the defense held up... I don't know much about Flores and I am really trying to not pigeon hole him just because he is another BB coordinator, but where is the specialness to Flores that would require hiring a 37 year old, one year coordinator? What am I missing?
     
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  22. Dorfdad

    Dorfdad Well-Known Member

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    Because none of them have had success outside of New England. Least of all a none Coordinator. Well 1 year but that’s not really experience IMHO I want more experience
     
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  23. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    It’s not the injuries. Every team has injuries. Other teams were hit harder than us. It’s the fact that if the first team wasn’t on the field that production collapsed that made Gase fireable.

    I’m old enough to remember the Don shula years when the backups were well prepared and contributed meaningfully. In the famous 1985 MNF football game where we trashed the Bears did you know we had lost 3 of our 5 starting OL by that point of the season? Did that stop us whipping what many call the best defense in NFL history? Don Shula made 3 superbowls either relying primarily on his backup QB or with his backup making very significant contributions to the season (1968, 1972 and 1982)

    The point is Gase has had 3 years to acquire and coachup the backups. Many of us forgave Gase in year 1 when the team performed well with the unicorns but badly without them. But in the third season it is reasonable to expect that people you have brought into your system and training regime should be able to contribute. It’s not just the OL, it’s the receivers, its the DBs its the LBs, its the DL, its the QB. Throughout the team the backups did not step up when called on, with the possible exception of RB.

    Our offensive and defensive rankings have cratered under Gase. The most positive thing I can say about Gase is that he wins way more 1 score games than usual. So he has outperformed expected W-L record than normal production stats (overall yards gained, yards per play, points, etc) predict by about 2-3 wins per season. Some of that is due to opponents not making as many FGs against Miami as expected, which if anything goes to Rizzi not Gase. Even if it is all on Gase what his special ability is doing, on average, is turning an otherwise 5-11 team into an 8-8 team.
     
  24. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    See here is where I get confused by the argument.

    If Coach X, takes a 5 win talent team and makes them an 8 win team, that is great coaching. It would stand to reason then, he could take an 8 win talent team and make them an 11 win team, no?

    I'm not arguing in favor of Gase here, I'm trying to understand the overriding logic and thought processes going on.
     
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  25. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Not really. Going from 5-11 to 8-8 is coaching to the average. Going above that is to go above the average. I'm not sure I agree with the premise of the first argument, but to continue by just adding 3 wins doesn't make sense. Why not just continue all the way to perfect season after perfect season.
     
  26. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Not sure what the argument is, but it is CLEARLY a good thing Adam Gase and Ryan Tannehill are the FK up out of South Florida all together soon.
     
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  27. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    If he was taking an 8-8 team and turning it into 11-5 then that’s a great argument for keeping him.

    The over-riding thought is that the base level production he has gotten over 3 years is roughly 5-11 and not showing any signs of being on an upward trajectory. The offensive rankings have been bad and the defensive rankings even worse. There’s nothing in the base levels of production that indicate Gase can build a sustainably successful offense or defense.

    Gase’s teams have only produced good spells when the majority of the starters are uninjured. Relying on your starters to be uninjured and healthy all the time is a hope, not a plan. Coaching up the reserves into being adequate fill-ins for the starters is a plan. When Gase was hired there was a lot of talk about hiring “teaching” coaches. Every team’s coaching staff says it will coach up and prepare young talent. The proof has been shown that Gase and his staff do not do that.

    Good long term coaches have teams that improve from low rankings. HoF coaches, on average, have delivered back to back winning seasons by year 3. Gase’s production is not consistent with what has previously been proven to be true about successful coaches.
     
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  28. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    To look at point differential, as one of the many ways to measure a team’s production and from that generate an expected W-L record.
    From this article https://www.cmusportsanalytics.com/wins-point-differential-nfl/ it’s shown that for every +33 in point differential you have that increases your expected wins/season by one.

    Gase’s teams.
    2016
    -17 point differential.
    Expected record. 7-8-1. Actual record. 10-6.
    Outperformed expected wins by 2.5

    2017
    -112 point differential.
    Expected record 4-11-1. Actual record 6-10
    Outperformed expected wins by 1.5

    2018
    -114 point differential
    Expected record 4-11-1. Actual record 7-9
    Outperformed expected wins by 2.5.

    * I have expressed expected record as the closest to an actual NFL record.

    There are other methods to calculate expected wins based in overall team performance. All of them suggest Gase is outperforming his expected W-L record in the region of 2-3 wins/season. This example is just what I consider to be the simplest.
     
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  29. Serpico Jones

    Serpico Jones Well-Known Member

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    Jason LaCanfora believes Brian Flores will be the head coach in Miami. It should be noted that we spent the most time with Flores, his interview bled into the next morning. I believe Rizzi is just a token interview at this point.
     
  30. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    If we hire flores I will officially have lost all faith in the miami dolphins organuzation.
     
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  31. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    He might turn out worse for us than Hue Jackson was for the Browns ... but that's a pretty miserable opinion to have and way to look at it. It's not like we are taking a career loser like Dennis 8-28 Allen, or some random person nobody has ever heard of that nobody else even bothered to check in with. It's not like Dennis 10th place Hickey. Those are things to lose faith in, not a guy that many throughout the NFL are excited to see.

    As a general pessimist myself, I would certainly be concerned about offshoots of the BB tree, but it's similar to, say, the ol Jeff Tedford QBs all blow *** in the NFL. Well, they did ... until Rogers came along.
     
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  32. Mike8272

    Mike8272 Active Member

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    Flores is a well regarded young coach, who had a good first year as defensive coordinator for the Patriots. He's seen as a rising coach in the league. Ok, BB coaches don't tend to have a great deal of success outside of New England, but if the decision makers like the guy, then that's the risk they take by hiring out of the BB tree.

    The other thing to consider here is that this job was unlikely to tempt the so-called top candidates. Why would Bruce Arians or the Harbaughs want to come here, because Dan Marino was once our quarterback and Don Shula was one of the all time great head coaches?

    Realistically this team doesn't have a great deal to offer right now. No quarterback and not in a position to draft a franchise changing quarterback, and arguably the free agent pile is thin. I guess Flacco has a ring but he's an uninspiring choice, and Foles is only magic with the Eagles. So quarterback wise there's nothing to attract people here. The OL still needs a lot of work. The offense as a whole needs work. As for the defense, there are some pieces to build around, but there's plenty of work to do on that side of the ball as well. The decision makers might not want to admit it, but this is a rebuild and the top candidates are not going to be tempted by that, especially when better openings are available to them.

    So while Flores might not be a sexy choice, unfortunately that's the kind of coach we are going to be hiring. A rising young coach looking for their first head coaching gig. Maybe people want the guy from the Chiefs, but is he really the brains behind their offense? Not really, that's Andy Reid since he calls the plays and designed the offense. So Eric Bieniemy is no better a candidate because he's inexperienced. What about Kris Richard? Ok I'd prefer him than Flores, and he's got more experience, but he did get canned from the Seahawks defense coordinator position and that defense is Rod Marinelli's defense. So potentially none of these guys are ideal candidates, but that's what we are looking at because we aren't in a position to attract better than that. But if we put that aside, all three are rising coaches and well respected. So I think losing faith in the team is extreme if we go for Flores because he's the kind of coach we were always likely to go for at this stage.
     
  33. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Why don't you mention Rizzi? He is the best candidate given our current situation and whats available. If are really in rebuilding mode then rizzi should be the choice. He is the one best known to us and the one most accepted by the players. He is already here and knows the sutuation better than anyone.
     
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  34. Mike8272

    Mike8272 Active Member

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    I would have no problem with Rizzi being given the opportunity. If he has the players support and has a clear plan and philosophy - great, hire the guy. However, with him being a special teams guy, what would his offense and defense look like?

    I know some point towards Harbaugh coming from special teams to Baltimore, but that's slightly different because they already had a clear defensive culture and run first offense. Here in Miami we don't have the same culture defensively, and the offense needs work too. So Rizzi wouldn't be entering into an easy position, he would need to hire proven coordinators to help him.
     
  35. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores & Team Tua

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    How would you feel with Rizzi as HC and Loggains as OC? That is why I asked earlier if Gase's offensive system is sound. Should we continue on with coaches who want to rebuild and try and do it right with the basically the same offensive system that Gase installed, or go in a new direction on offense?
     
  36. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    You're using general injury stats out of context.

    Specifically, how many teams lost their starting QB, Middle of their offensive line AND most of the receiving core but still succeeded? I'd guess very few? If Im wrong though, Im wrong.

    Im not even defending Gase...I just think stats need context.
     
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  37. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    That's not what i'm saying. Try this:

    - If a roster's talent is only good for about 5 wins, but the team gets 8 wins, that is a sign of good coaching.
    - If a roster's talent is only good for about 5 wins, and the team gets 5 wins, that is a sign of average coaching.
    - If a roster's talent is only good for about 8 wins, but the team gets 5 wins, that is a sign of bad coaching.

    Pauly, seemed to be saying that we were a 5 win roster and Gase was getting 8 wins out of them. Which would be a positive not negative.

    My point has been that because our record is steadily average, either:
    A) the coaching is average and the talent is average
    - OR -
    B) the coaching is bad and the talent is good
    - OR -
    C) the coaching is good and the talent is bad
    (* This can change form year to year. One year they could be C and the next could be A, etc.)

    I'm not arguing about which point a person should subscribe too, my point is that the outlook, logically, HAS to be one of those three. I say that because people are screaming to gut the staff and the roster. That makes no sense based on A,B or C, it should be one or the other if it is B or C, or not at all if it is A.

    I don't understand how this wasn't specific enough:
    Pauly, I respect you, but I just don't agree that offensive and defensive rankings say more about an overall team's ability than their record, especially when we look at it across 10 years or so. We are and have been an average team. That is due to the A, B or C points I made to texas above. But if you are going to look at unit rankings, etc. and see that we are winning more games than those rankings dictate than I'm not sure how the conclusion would be the problem is coaching and not talent. I mean with enough talent, units won't be terrible...someone will make a tackle, INT, TD, big play, etc. regardless of scheme.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2019
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  38. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    I think it's A.

    However, a coach can be overall average but not average in all respects. The way I view Gase is that he was a major reason we had one of the worst point differentials over 3 years as a team (basically you have to go back to before Shula was hired to see something like that), but also a major reason we won more than expected given point differential.

    As to what specifically Gase did that led to the low production on offense one can debate, but on defense it's probably the inability to find the right DC. What did Gase do to win more than expected based on point differential? That stat is easy to explain if you just happen to be better in close games, which is evidenced by Gase's good close games record. In other words, don't quit as easily and you can otherwise be a bad team and win more than expected based on point differential alone.

    As to why I wanted Gase gone, overall average isn't good enough. We want a SB.
     
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  39. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Fair.

    A requires coaching changes. (Maybe HC but definitely some coordinators)
    B requires coaching changes. (Definitely most of the staff including HC)
    C requires FO changes. (Maybe GM but definitely some scouts)

    Now maybe A only requires coordinator changes. Which, for me, was also the problem with Gase. Burke was bad and he should have someone else be the actual play calling OC. In a perfect world, that's what I would have done if I was Ross/Grier...force Gase to find an OC and DC. Now, if Gase balks at that, then he has to go for sure.
     
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  40. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores & Team Tua

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    I am curious. Is there a free website that has game data available that would be fairly easy to manipulate in excel? I would like to know where we stood this season on 3 and outs compared to the other teams? No worries if not. I just thought I would ask.
     
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