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Who's the Next Coach?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Vertical Limit, Dec 31, 2018.

  1. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Ok, but my point wasn't;t about what someone feels is the most important.

    It was about if a team is consistently average the coaching and the talent can't both be terrible.
     
  2. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    I’d argue with a record of 11-5 and Cassel having a fine year, that had more to do with what Chad Pennington and Miami did that season than Brady being out.
     
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  3. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    It's a crazy risky boom/bust hire (probably bust). But the reasons he was fired for at TT are heavily mitigated/nonexistent in the NFL. His problems were generally porous defense and not great recruiting, which, well, it's Tech. The former is solved via a good DC, the latter via not existing. It's pretty clear they wanted a shift toward being offensive and developing Rosen. It will be fascinating to watch at any rate.

    I would't. It was a fine year, but it wasn't the elite year they usually have. That non-elite year and performance opened the door for us, and for once, we managed to take advantage thanks to unusually steady QB play and the Wildcat gimmick. CBrad said it better though, hard to tell for sure with small sample size. Either way, hard to imagine they will get better.
     
  4. Dorfdad

    Dorfdad Well-Known Member

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    Either you need to have one hell of a coach to raise the players above what they are to what they can be or you better have hella good players to compensate for weak coaching. Anything in between and you get the 2016-2018 Dolphins
     
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  5. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    Historically we’ve seen elite coaches get elite performance out of good talent, and good performances out of average talent. Quality coaching is the rising tide that lifts all the boats.

    You look at coaches like Bill Walsh, Don Shula, Bill Belichek you see many players come to their teams and improve yet very few players leave their team and keep at performing at the same level. We’ve seen coaches like John Madden get elite performance from players other coaches considered to be “too wild” and George Allen get elite performance from players considered “too old”.

    Good coaching makes talent better.
     
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  6. Dorfdad

    Dorfdad Well-Known Member

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    Agree but not one coach makes a tackle or gets into position on the field. The players are ones making the plays. Do you think Chicago would have been just as dominating on defense without Mack this year? No it’s that because Vic isn’t a good defensive coach? No of course he is but Having talent on your team that FITS your scheme and plan is how you win.

    I don’t think we ever had a plan as to what we were or are.
     
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  7. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    If we had traded for Mack would Burke have gotten similar production out of him as Fangio?
     
  8. Dorfdad

    Dorfdad Well-Known Member

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    Probably not but he would have elevated us and we may have made the playoffs
     
  9. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    I sure hope you’re right and I’m wrong. New England’s downfall is probably the only thing that could get me back interested in the NFL. I won’t be convinced of it until I see it, and personally, I don’t think it happens until either a) The true depth of their cheating is exposed; or b) Ernie Adams takes a dirt nap.
     
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  10. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    No, but he'd still have been a tenfold improvement and we may have made the playoffs.

    Talent wins the games it should.

    Coaching wins games that are near equal in talent.
     
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  11. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Coaching is EVERYTHING!!! It doesn't matter how great of talent you have, if you do not have a good coaching it isn't going to produce. Consider this...

    We had on defense, Suh AND Wake on the DL. Both of those players alone command double team due to their sheer talent and yet...we couldn't stop the run to save our life! Or we were getting sliced and diced on passing plays.

    That's a coaching issue, not a player issue. When you have 4 of 11 players engaged in stopping only 2 of our players, that leaves a 9 on 7 and we can't consistently stop them? That's a coaching issue. Ok, STILL not convinced?

    Wade Phillips- Leaves the Denver Broncos as DC after building a powerhouse of a defense. Goes to the Rams and guess what he does there, builds yet another powerhouse of a defense.

    Jim Schwartz- Builds a powerhouse of a defense in Buffalo (Thank Christ they never had an offense), leaves Buffalo, goes to the Eagles and builds yet another powerhouse of a defense.

    I could cite example after example of how coaching is the key to a great defense, but then the post would get so long that it wouldn't be read.

    Many times, you quarterback junkies always like to say that an elite quarterback elevates the play of the players around him. Well an elite coach makes good players great and great players elite...and the same is true on the flip side of that coin...a mediocre coach results in elite players being good and good players being awful.
     
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  12. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    Yeah I'm often surprised how little significance many people place on coaching. If you know anything about leadership and management you know that poor leadership can ruin a great team and great leadership can do wonders with anything but a dysfunctional team - although then a great leader will, where able, change and fix the team. You see this everywhere from business to sports and it really should be obvious. Leaders, those at the head of anything, with responsibility and authority, will, by nature, colour and influence everything they're responsible for.

    It's also obvious that talent matters. Better players give more options and great players give great options. However, leadership is the glue that brings everything together, without it, things fall apart.

    This is also why an inept owner can leave a franchise stuck in a quagmire of inadequacy or mediocrity no matter what talent passes through its doors. Order of importance on a football team is simple, start at the top and work your way down. The QB is the most important of all individual players, but the importance of the coach is an order of magnitude greater.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
  13. Fame

    Fame Well-Known Member

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    Mack is awesome but he wouldn't have really elevated us that much. We still couldn't score any points at the end because our line was so shredded.
     
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  14. Fame

    Fame Well-Known Member

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    So, at the risk of sounding grossly inappropriate, which I swear is not the intention, I can't help but notice that Chris Grier seems to be favoring one of the two young African American candidates, which would make the Dolphins one of only 3 (as of now) teams in the league to have an African American head coach (assuming Rizzi doesn't get hired which he still could).

    I'm sure Grier is picking candidates based primarily on who is best for the job, but I do think it could be a great idea to be more culturally diversified going forward. It shows that Stephen Ross is open minded about the future of the franchise, which is awesome. It also may be a brilliant way to steer the ship during the turbulent waters that are ahead.

    As I see the Dolphins have two choices in a rebuild: either blow it up and hire a coach you don't intend to keep after 2-3 years or hire the guy you think can keep the waters steady in the storm and come out clean on the other side. I get the impression from Flores and from Richard in particular that they would be in the second group. It also makes sense, given the scope of the league, to pair a young African American head coach with what is presumably going to be a much younger roster going forward. These young guys would have an incredibly powerful and vocal role model to look up to immediately upon entering the league.

    It makes sense on a lot of levels. I just wonder if we're playing 3D chess with these interviews or if we're looking for who can be a scapegoat in 2-3 years.
     
  15. Dorfdad

    Dorfdad Well-Known Member

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    Of the two I want Kris Richards I could care less if he’s black white or Asian I want a coach who can win, inspire and puts people into positions to prosper.

    But I have seen a few videos of both and their styles and I live the enthusiasm Richards brings to practices.

    I think he could be a very good prospect.

    I don’t want anything from Dirty New England here!!

    If you want a scapegoat hire Rizzi and roll form 2 years!
     
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  16. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    By all measures it was elite. Only 2 teams in the history of the NFL have missed the playoffs after winning 11 games. Denver and the Patriots. But, in reality a 14-2 team could potentially miss the playoffs so judging that season solely on playoff appearance, or lack thereof, is not right, IMO. (Fun fact, a team with a 0-10-6 record could technically win their division and thus make the playoffs.)

    Up to that point in NE's Brady and BB time playing together the Pats averaged 12 wins per season. They won 11 with Cassel at QB. Their offensive rank averaged 7th with Brady at QB. With Cassel at QB it was 8th.

    Cassel's stats that year were : 63% comp rate, 3693 yards, 21 TD's, 11 INT's, and an 89 passer rating.

    Brady's career average single season up to that point was: 63% comp rate, 3714 yards, 26 TD's, 12 INT's, and a 92 passer rating.

    Virtually no difference in QB play. Even though Cassel hadn't started a game since HIGH SCHOOL and came off of the bench and had attempted a total of 39 passes in the previous 3 years.


    By all reasonable accounts the Pats had a year very typical to their "normal elite" years.
     
  17. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    That's why the NFL is 90% coaching. The rest (10%) is players, injuries, and even luck.


    The talent level of the NFL is the extremely high all across the board.


    The best QB in the league isn't that better than the worst QB in the league. Same goes with any position. Sure, it's nice to have, and easier to win games with, a Rodgers over a Winston, but the biggest difference between teams is coaching.
     
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  18. schisno

    schisno Well-Known Member

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    From reading all the varying "news stories", and the current theory that Kris Richards and Brian Flores is at the top of their list, I don't understand this plan to find a scapegoat/bridge HC. You're only setting up the franchise to be set back after 2 to 3 seasons, and potentially lead to an even longer rebuild. Once you come to the point of letting go your next coach, then you're looking at shoehorning a fit in terms of the philosophy and personnel, or completely blowing it up and who knows how long that tear down and rebuild will take.

    At least with this shallow pool of candidates that teams like Arizona and Green Bay are looking at pairing their QBs with a coach for the next 5 to 10 years. If the Dolphins want to bridge, would it not make sense to go the Buccaneers route and get a veteran guy who can help build a culture like Arians. Or even Schottenheimer with the Chargers during the LT days. I think the Dolphins if they hire either Richards or Flores just ends up with a Todd Bowles.
     
  19. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    The only caveat is that the team the year before went 16-0 in the regular season. So, yeah, I agree that Cassel was really close to Brady's averages...however, there was a pretty good drop off from the season before, and I don't think the team changed to much, although I could be wrong on that.
     
  20. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    The two teams starting lineup were fairly different. Here are their starting rosters. The 53 rosters were a lot more different.

    2007-16-0 Team:

    upload_2019-1-9_11-5-0.png

    2008- 11-5 Team:

    upload_2019-1-9_11-8-0.png
     

    Attached Files:

  21. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    Did you guys just question whether Burke would of gotten the same out of Mack as Fangio did? Lol. Did Mack not produce the same throughout his career with the Raiders? Give me a break. Mack makes himself great, not the coaching.
     
  22. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    I think Mack is a better player under guys like Saban or Belichick. JT was great before Saban, and even better with him.
     
  23. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    Not questioning that, what I’m saying is Mack’s year was his norm. It wasn’t like when JT was with Saban.
     
  24. Not So Fast

    Not So Fast Well-Known Member

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    The Broncos hired Fangio, and the Browns promoted Freddie Kitchens. So it looks like the Dolphins can choose whoever they want. The Bengals and the Jets are the only teams remaining with vacancies. Mike McCarthy wants the Jets job, so that could get done soon if the Jets are interested.
     
  25. Not So Fast

    Not So Fast Well-Known Member

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  26. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores & Team Tua

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    Are the Dolphins making a mistake?

    In Armando's article, "As NFL teams hire one type of coach, Miami Dolphins search goes in different direction" he points out that most of all the other teams are going offensive minded head coaches so that down the road if their OC gets poached for a head coach job they won't have to bring in a new OC and possibly a new system with it. Is he right?

    Another thing he said in the article that has me steamed is that Ross is the one looking for the head coach and Grier is the one helping find the head coach. I know FAME has said that this was the way it was, but I didn't want to believe him. Ross said in the presser that Grier was responsible for all football decision. I took that to mean Grier was the one hiring the head coach, making the decisions in FA and the draft, etc.. Now, if this is true and Ross is the one hiring the actual coach then this goes against everything I was excited about when Grier was named VP of Football Operations because IMO Ross doesn't need to be meddle and be involved in the decision. He needs to stay the **** out of the decision and keep his ****ing pie hole shut. Let Grier do his job!

    Note: Depending on how this HC search shakes out this could be a deal breaker for me as a Dolphin fan. Ross has ****ed this organization up in more ways than one and I am getting tired of it. I am quickly losing my patience over his involvement and the ineptness he brings when it comes to the football side of Dolphin operations. I have been a longtime loyal fan and don't want to leave. I have stuck with this team during some pretty lean years. However, I will if we continue to make boneheaded mistakes that continually sets us back because nobody has the guts to stand up to a meddlesome owner.
     
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  27. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End Club Member

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    I think that people are reading way too much into Ross's comments about rebuilding the team and the 3-13 comment from him. So in that regards They are not looking for, nor will they hire a coach whom they believe is a bridge coach or to preside over said rebuild. They are looking for a coach that is competent for the long haul and will help with the rebuild. The 3-13 comment was made simply as a way of conveying there will be no pressure to win now and the realization that there is going to most likely be a downturn before things get better. No where do I get the impression that he is condoning tanking or losing as a means to an end, just a realization that it is going to take a minute to get things fixed so we can move forward.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
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  28. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End Club Member

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    Please do not buy into Mando's thoughts on the subject. I have found him to be the most unreliable source during this search. He seems to be posting articles entirely as click bait. His twitter is even more whack.

    He can go #TankforTua by himself.
     
  29. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    I don't think that's even remotely true.

    First of all, let's all be clear about one thing: no one has a good idea how much a coach or specific position player contributes to winning. That's precisely the Achilles heel of stuff like ESPN's QBR or FO's DVOA. No one knows so they insert subjective assumptions.

    Having said that, there are so many examples of cases where changing the QB and/or other position players dramatically changed the fortunes of a team that I'm not sure it's any more or less than with coaches. For example, look at the difference between 1998 Rams and 1999 Rams. Trent Green goes down to injury in a preseason game in 1999 and a 4-12 team suddenly becomes a 13-3 team and wins the SB with Warner at the helm and Faulk as RB.

    Guess what? They were ranked #1 for 3 consecutive years on offense when they were ranked #20 or below for the 5 years prior. They also went to the playoffs for 3 consecutive years and the SB twice, losing the second time. And anyone suggesting this was Mike Martz who also came on in 1999 (first as OC, then as HC from 2000) has the problem that the Rams lost their magic when they replaced Warner with Bulger. If coaching is "an order of magnitude" greater in importance you wouldn't see this.

    Similarly, how to explain Peyton's absence in 2011 where the Colts went 2-14 right after winning 10 or more games for 9 consecutive years? That's Peyton, not the coach.

    Then you have other problems like Wannstedt. No loss in team performance from Jimmy Johnson to Wannstedt even though most people say he's a bad coach (I agree). I wonder why.. yup the personnel. Or take Jimmy Johnson himself. If the coach is THAT important why couldn't he replicate his success at Dallas with the Dolphins. And who here really thinks the 49ers win all those SB's without such high level talent everywhere? etc...

    Point is.. no one knows how much the coach contributes relative to the players and that's the very first thing that needs to be acknowledged. People can have their opinions of course and I'll state mine. IMO win% is maybe 25% due to the coaching and 15% due to the QB. The rest of the 60% you can distribute among the rest of the players.

    Only other thing to note is that there is no salary cap on coaches yet the top coaches aren't paid as much as the top QB's. That doesn't directly answer the question of "influence" of course because that salary figure depends on supply as well as demand and maybe you just have fewer top level QB's, but it's still something to keep in mind.
     
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  30. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Wednesday, January 9, 2019.

    You and I agree on something.
     
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  31. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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  32. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    I found this interesting, albeit some of it common knowledge.

    https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/nfl-black-monday-insights-how-much-do-coaches-really-matter
     
  33. bigballa2102

    bigballa2102 Well-Known Member

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    so in this sense we should sell out for mike mccarthy because he coached the packers to 1 losing season in what 10 years? it didnt matter he had rodgers?
     
  34. bigballa2102

    bigballa2102 Well-Known Member

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    I personally think we have to sell out this offseason, we need to go hard at harbaugh or mccarthy. Sign flacco or foles trade whatever it takes for Antonio brown, and possibly look at laveon bell. this would drastically turn around a stagnant offense and put us in the right direction for a divisional title next year. As its looking we are going to let mccarthy go to the jets and i for one dont want to get beat by the jets because we sat around waiting for our hand to get numb for "the stranger" to get off.

    both mccarthy and harbaugh are proven winners, we dont have the luxury as the cardinals do to take a chance on the "next new thing" cardinals have had 3 division titles and a superbowl appearance in the last 10 years. miami has been nothing for 20 years no playoff wins nothing. we cannot sit back and let it "pan out" this is an act now direction in my eyes.
     
  35. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    "The coach must account for his ego. He has to drop or sidestep the ego barrier so that people can communicate without fear. They have to be comfortable that they will not be ridiculed if they turn out to be mistaken or if their ideas are not directly in line with their superior’s. That is where the breakthrough comes. That is what it takes to build a successful, winning organization.

    I tried to remove the fear factor from people’s minds so they could feel comfortable opening their mouths. They knew they could be wrong one time and then, when they got a little more information, change their opinion and not be demeaned for it. In fact, I made a point of reminding our coaching staff that I expected them to change their opinions and impressions over time. It’s quite natural: the more information you develop, the faster things can change.

    English is a marvelous language until it comes to the word “ego.” We Americans throw that around, using that one word to cover a broad spectrum of meanings: self-confidence, self-assurance, and assertiveness—attributes that most people think of as positive.

    But there is another side that can wreck a team or an organization. That is being distracted by your own importance. It can come from your insecurity in working with others. It can be the need to draw attention to yourself in the public arena. It can be a feeling that others are a threat to your own territory. These are all negative manifestations of ego, and if you are not alert to them, you get diverted and your work becomes diffused. Ego in these cases makes people insensitive to how they work with others and ends up interfering with the real goal of any group efforts.

    The role of the head coach begins with setting a standard of competence. You have to exhibit a strong working knowledge of the game. The head coach must be able to function effectively and decisively in the most stressful situations. And the head coach must demonstrate resourcefulness—in particular, he is responsible for designing a system of football that is not simplistic. The head coach’s system should never reduce the game to the point where he can blame his players for success or failure simply because they did not physically overwhelm the opponents.

    Successful coaches realize that winning teams are not run by single individuals who dominate the scene and reduce the rest of the group to marionettes. Winning teams are more like open forums in which everyone participates in the decision-making process, coaches and players alike, until the decision is made. Others must know who is in command, but a head coach must behave democratically. Then, once a decision is made, the team must be motivated to go ahead and execute it."

    ------Bill Walsh, 1993


    Read the entire interview here: https://hbr.org/1993/01/to-build-a-winning-team-an-interview-with-head-coach-bill-walsh
     
  36. Kud_II

    Kud_II Realist Division

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    Denver jumped on the guy that I wanted, Fangio, probably because they're a smarter franchise than we are. We need to make John Harbaugh an offer he cant refuse.
     
  37. Kud_II

    Kud_II Realist Division

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    Well he's got a great attitude. Seems to enjoy his job, unlike Gase who always seemed to have a sharp stick up his ***. Richard He sounds like he has coaching ability. I actually kind of like the guy.

     
  38. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Fangio was one of my favorites, too.

    However, you can't discredit the fact that he's been passed over for HC duties for years and on multiple occasions. If Denver is smarter than Miami then they are smarter than 2/3 of the league.
     
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  39. Kud_II

    Kud_II Realist Division

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    I guess I shouldn't say smarter, they had an itchy trigger for him clearly though, only time will tell if it was wise.
     
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  40. mbsinmisc

    mbsinmisc Season Ticket Holder

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    I agree with everything you said EXCEPT I will be a Dolphin until I die. I can see giving up my NFL fandom. I could never root for another team.
     
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