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***The Official 2018-19 NBA Thread***

Discussion in 'Other Sports Forum' started by Boik14, Sep 17, 2018.

  1. sports24/7

    sports24/7 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    See, you and I just see this draft differently, and have a different approach to what Miami should be looking to do. If you put Clarke up against Doumbouya, Little, Langford, Porter, and Bol, I think the odds are decent that Clarke becomes the best player of the bunch. But for me, if I'm making the decision, I'm taking a big swing on one of those guys hoping to hit the jackpot.

    With Little and Langford, you're talking about two big time prospects entering college, that for different reasons underwhelmed in their freshman seasons. Little was on a really good team, and never quite found his rhythm. He's reportedly a really high character player, and has all the physical tools you want (he has a monster wingspan). Like Clarke, you are hoping the jumper develops, but unlike Clarke, you don't have the college production to fall back on. You do have a history of shooting success in HS, though, as well as a pretty good FT%. And he's only 19 (just turned it in February). With Langford he was dealing with a ligament injury in his hand, but has big time offensive upside. If you can see an improved stroke in workouts after the hand has healed, he's awfully intriguing.

    Doumbouya is basically all upside. Nekias Duncan, who's opinion I really respect, was practically salivating over his potential. You take him, and hope he's the next Giannis-type. He's playing against grown men in Europe, and while he isn't blowing them away, he's holding his own as an 18 year old kid who has yet to scratch the surface of his potential.

    Porter is extremely talented, but there are questions about his character and work ethic. That's either going to completely turn the Heat off, or they're going to tell themselves that their culture can fix that, and hopefully turn him into a star.

    Bol might be the most intriguing of any of them. He also might be the biggest boom or bust player in the draft. His injury cut his season short, and there are concerns about durability. His athleticism isn't anything special either. But he has rare skill for a guy his size, that gives some people visions of Kristaps Porzingis.

    Where we agree is on PJ Washington. He probably doesn't have the potential I'm craving, but I think he's going to be a good starting player, and fits seamlessly into this rotation.
     
  2. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    One note on Little, his court sense and common sense sometimes lack on the court which leads to turnovers. Very curious to see what he becomes.

    Regarding both Langford and Little...they’re freshmen. Clarke’s a Jr. That extra 2 years in the development process knowing jump shooting is usually the last thing most players develop offensively. Most places I look have Clarke in the early 20’s which is about where I’d put him. In last year’s draft he’s probably a 2nd rounder imo. Maybe the bottom 3 of the first round. Little is one of the 5-7 highest upside players in the draft with a chance to be something between Gerald Wallace and Kawhi Leonard. Langford has a lot of potential which is what I look for as well oftentimes. He’s got a good midrange game, reminiscent of early Khris Middleton.
     
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  3. sports24/7

    sports24/7 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He's a Junior that also sat out a year after transferring. So it's actually 3 years. That doesn't mean he can't develop. Guys like Jimmy Butler, and Josh Richardson came into the league at 22, and developed quite a bit offensively. But I do agree that it somewhat lessens the expectation for major growth.

    I also agree with the Middleton comp for Langford.
     
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  4. sports24/7

    sports24/7 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think it's far more likely Riley moves the pick for a veteran, but I wonder if Cam Reddish really does fall if Miami could trade up for him. Trades in the NBA draft are kind of weird in that it doesn't always cost much to move up. The Jazz (unfortunately) moved up from 24 to 13 for Trey Lyles. Sometimes late 1st can be as easy as buying them. I'm not exactly sure what they have to give up, but maybe Riley can get creative. We know the organization likes Duke.
     
  5. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I know juniors can develop, I was pointing to your point about the upside. Most of the all stars and elites come in as Freshman or Sophmores.
     
  6. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    I alway's kind of figured Riley post Lebron and how it ended would be hard for Pat to overcome in the short term, but if the Lakers would've called? He would've gotten a new lease on his career and been back with 23.

    Leave it to the dysfunctional Laker's to not even pick up the phone.
     
  7. sports24/7

    sports24/7 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Right. I agree with that. I was just qualifying that it's not that it can't happen, it's just less likely.
     
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  8. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Ya i agree, i never said it couldnt happen. But given 2 similar players in the nba draft, you go younger unless the kid is a mental case imo.
     
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  9. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Langford has some real problems when being forced right. I don't really like the way he's wired. I'd rate him higher if I thought he were a better, more tuned in player.

    And he's a guy that has a segmented jump shot that will need a massive re-work. At least Brandon Clarke has already done this and it came out alright.

    In addition to everything been mentioned about Kevin Porter's character questions, his release point on his shot is low as hell.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
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  10. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Porter had a brief run where he garnered top 10 consideration. Hes a guy who i wouldnt touch at this point until late 1/early 2. Hes inconsistent, makes some dumb plays, and his J is busted. Basically he fell back to earth. He should go back for another year imo.

    Langford needs to imprive his J is no secret. He shot 27% from 3 and looked hesitant at times. Hes also got to work at being a primary playmaker. But theres also a lot to like. Hes got the ability to become a 20ppg type scorer. His mid range is as good as there is in this draft. 72% from the FT can be improved upon and isnt bad for an 18 yr old in the big 10
     
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  11. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Every time I think about this whole Brandon Clarke debate, this argument versus that argument, this piece of evidence versus that, etc...I always smile when I remember that there’s one ultimate trump card on the side of the Brandon Clarke stans:

    That he’s insanely good at basketball.

     
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  12. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    Ultimately, I would probably prefer a guy Clarke, but Bol is intriguing to me as well due to the size and skill. I just don't think I'd like to stomach the injury risk and moreso on a player that's already not that athletic. An injury can strip away even more athleticism. In a league with so many athletes its tough for skill alone to compensate.
     
  13. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    If we're going the direction of a Bol Bol then I'd rather go for Goga Bitadze. That guy has some massive potential. Bol Bol just moves too awkwardly for me.

    I've only recently gotten a look at Bitadze but he's going way up the board for me. Very good player only 19 years old with the potential to get a lot better.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2019
  14. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    This dude is only 19 years old.

     
  15. phinswolverinesrockets

    phinswolverinesrockets If he dies, he dies

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    I wonder how high Isaiah Hartenstein would be drafted in this upcoming draft.

    Just turned 21 a few days ago.
    7'0", 250 lbs
    G-League Finals MVP (champs)
    Stats during G-League playoffs:
    24 ppg
    15 rpg
    50% field goal
    47% from three
    76% free throw

    That kid was dominating grown men. I could only imagine how dominant he would have been in college. Morey was smart as hell to draft that kid in the 2nd round two years ago out of Europe. The kid started off this season as backup Center giving good minutes for Houston when Nene was out. He was killing against GSW during our first matchup of the season. He finished with a +/- of +27 against the warriors. Then, Nene came back and Dantoni stopped playing him...smh.

    We better give this kid some playing time next year. He is too good for G League.
     
  16. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I think I somewhat remember that kid too, coming out.
     
  17. phinswolverinesrockets

    phinswolverinesrockets If he dies, he dies

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    Hartenstein?
     
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  18. BevoPhin

    BevoPhin Well-Known Member

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    GSW at -1 for game one looks too good.
     
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  19. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Yeah I would pound the **** out of that line.
     
  20. BevoPhin

    BevoPhin Well-Known Member

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    Slammed it.

    I’d be surprised if this series went 6 games.
     
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  21. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Yeah on second thought I might be thinking of a different guy. I could’ve swore we talked about Hartenstein a few years ago.
     
  22. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I'm finding that Draft Twitter tend to largely discount age and go for guys who look impressive and well rounded. I'm part of that, because I love Brandon Clarke so much and I think Draft Twitter largely agree.

    But the Heat have a history of going for young players. Justise Winslow was a baby. Bam Adebayo was young. These were players that were advanced in their physical development for their age (heavy, strong). Justise was an unusually well-rounded player for his age, and Bam was a guy that they thought could develop into a well-rounded player.

    When I think about that, this is where I come back to Goga Bitadze. He's only 19 years old. Yet he's so physically developed for that age. He's a 7 footer, but he also weighs like 240-250 lbs and is strong. He looks somewhat slow when he's running the court, but then looks explosive when he drives to the basket from about the top of the break. When he sets screens, he uses that lower half of his so well, stays rooted, and defenders can't fight through it.

    Bitadze has been shooting 40% on three pointers since he was like 15 years old playing in VTB United and the KK Mega Leks Junior Teams. And he's kept that up all through through KK Mega Bemax where he shot 17 of 40 (42.5%) this year.

    And, yeah. That shooting percentage is based on legit shooting skills. Watch him do the star shooting drill recently:



    I do searches on the guy's name and I keep hearing fans and media for teams like the Celtics (who pick right behind the Heat at 14 overall) and the Hawks (who pick 10 overall) saying they really ought to go for him.

    I see Ira Winderman do a fan Q&A where someone asks why the Heat avoid international players, and he says he doesn't think that's a fair characterization as the Heat were going to go for Clint Capela instead of that sh-tty point guard they drafted if it weren't for their ill-fated attempts to appease LeBron, and in fact we should keep an eye on Goga Bitadze.

    I really think Goga may be the favorite for the Heat pick at 13 at this point, if they keep the pick, and I am 100% here for it. I love Brandon Clarke too, of course. I love him more, even. But will Clarke even be there?

    Miami needs to think about the post-Whiteside era for the Heat and I don't think it can just be all about Bam Adebayo.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2019
  23. phinswolverinesrockets

    phinswolverinesrockets If he dies, he dies

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    You might have talked about Hartenstein back then. He was supposed to be a 1st round pick two years ago, but slipped to the 2nd round because everyone thought he would stay in Europe for another year or two. He was one of the top under-18 prospects in Europe.

    I am hearing chatter of Morey making Kevin Love his 2nd biggest priority in the off-season behind Jimmy Butler. Personally, I don't want Love. I think Hartenstein can give you pretty much everything Love does...for $1.4 mil instead of Love's $29 mil per year. Plus, Hartenstein is a damn good defender, unlike Love.
     
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  24. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I don't think I really dig Carsen Edwards the way some do. Short, small, he's quick but not blazing. He takes a bunch of threes from way beyond the arc that just come off as selfish shots sometimes. Bunch of off-balance three point shooting. It's like, I get it if the guy is a 40% shooter. But he's more of a 35% shooter, and his assist game is weak for a point guard. He doesn't steal the ball like Briante or anything. He's definitely not gonna block any shots. He's got no real rebound game.

    As an offensive player, he's a shooter, period. Do you really want a 5'11" (without shoes) shooting guard? And do you expect 5'11" plays strong defense at the next level? Someone can bring up Steph Curry and I get it, but Steph was a three-year career 41% three point shooter. His steal, assist, and rebound games were a lot stronger too. You can't play like you're Steph Curry and then shoot only 35%, get 3 assists per game, and 3 or 4 rebounds per game.
     
  25. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He reminds me more of Boston/Sacramento version of Isaiah Thomas than Curry. He’s an ideal backup PG imo with some ability to grow as a distributor.
     
  26. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I can see why the Heat are onto Max Strus as a 2nd round or UDFA prospect.

    The way he runs around and fights for every 3 point shot of his reminds me of Matt Williams from UCF, who the Heat signed as a UDFA some years ago. Neither player had a super high 3 point percentage (36-38%) but the degree of difficulty for what the two players do in shooting those 3 point shots is really high. These are guys that have to create the opportunity the way Ray Allen did with the Heat, the way Wayne Ellington did.

    The question is, can the percentage go higher. With Matt Williams I thought his shot was mostly a finished product and (perhaps mistakenly) thought that attractive. I recall thinking his shot actually looks a lot like Ray Allen's. With Max Strus, his shot looks long to me. I'm not an expert by any means but he seems like he pulls the basketball way down to begin his shooting motion. Release point is good, and it's a smooth shot once you account for how low he starts.

    My question is, can a good shooting coach get him to shorten up his shot and make it even better? Is that a source of potential upside? He's an 84% FT shooter, so if that's an indication what kind of consistency he is capable of achieving, maybe that's a source of optimism.

    One thing is for sure. Where Matt Williams was essentially clueless on defense, kind of a wuss, and wasn't really going to give you much on rebounds, assists (ball stops with him), etc...Max Strus has a more complete game. Strus gets nearly 6 rebounds a game, between 2 and 3 assists, 1 steal, half a block. He seems to do work on defense.

    And he's also a hell of a lot better attacking the rim and finishing, which shows up in the percentages. He handles the ball well, very active. Super high energy. Can play above the rim.

    He's gritty and smart player, though. You wonder, if he played a different role, could he even think about playing some PG? He's a full 6'6" tall but definitely quick enough, moves well enough while handling the ball to play PG. If his role weren't to run around screens and find just enough space to catch and shoot threes, would he be a good facilitator?



    This is a bit like Carsen Edwards except that Edwards is rated much higher and is much smaller.

    I think the Heat are interested because Strus plays like an NBA player. That's the style he plays. He carries his team offensively, doing heavy lifting. When he's playing catch and shoot, he's working his *** off without the ball in his hands running around screens to try and create space. When he's attacking the rim, it's not necessarily a bunch of favorable spacing, and he's facing the team's best defender, so he's got to step back and shoot sometimes, or Euro step to finish, etc.
     
  27. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I don't know that I've ever seen anything more looney than Brandon Clarke's 138.1 ORtg and his 83.8 DRtg, giving him a +54.3 Net Rating.
     
  28. sports24/7

    sports24/7 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This is someone who has been right before. I'm not sure how I'd feel about this. It's exciting, but there would be quite a bit of risk involved in trading one of the kids. If they are going to involve one of them, however, you'd have to think they're looking to move pretty high. Maybe they have fallen in love with Reddish? Maybe they're looking to get a PG in White or Garland?

     
  29. BevoPhin

    BevoPhin Well-Known Member

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    That certainly is exciting. I wonder how high they’re trying to jump. I’m not married to any of our guys. We know what we have in our guys, outside of Bam maybe.

    What is the status on our picks over the next few years? I believe we have our 2020 1st round pick, but not our 2021, correct? I’d be on board with letting a young guy or 2 go for a shot at someone in this draft, and then getting a high pick in 2020.
     
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  30. BevoPhin

    BevoPhin Well-Known Member

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    I know you also liked Donovan Mitchell in 2017. Maybe Miami was as well considering Utah jumped right ahead of us for him. Completely different player from Brandon, but do you think you’re higher on Brandon than you were on Mitchell in 2017?
     
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  31. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If they’re smart it’s Reddish or Culver.
     
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  32. sports24/7

    sports24/7 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Based on what they really need, those could be the exact two. My dream scenario would be that some of those whispers about the Knicks taking Culver are true, and Miami trades up for RJ. I can't imagine the Lakers would move off the pick if he's there, but I can dream.
     
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  33. sports24/7

    sports24/7 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Greg Sylvander and Nekias Duncan, two guys who really know their stuff from the Miami Heat Beat, did a writeup on the power forwards for this draft. Sylvander wrote a pretty detailed piece on Clarke (who they list as their top PF). I agree with pretty much all of what he says here.
    He's going to be a solid contributing player. But he compares him to guys like Kenyon Martin, Paul Millsap, Jordan Bell, and Taj Gibson. I think those are pretty good comps, and all of those guys make the Heat a better team. But again, if I was making the decision, I'm going for someone with more upside, and ideally a guard or wing because it's a guard/wing league. I'd rather a Donovan Mitchell, Giannis, Paul George, Devin Booker, Kawhi type swing. Doing so might land you a Kelly Oubre, or Caldwell-Pope, but I'd be ok with that risk with where their roster currently stands.
     
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  34. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The Knicks had Culver in for a workout but id bet thats more for a trade scenario. RJ has some brooklyn roots (his mom is from there) and is one of the few players ive seen who can handle NY personality wise. There have been rumors of talks about a potential move back with ATL but if theyre smart they just take Barrett. It could also be for a potential deal of Ntilikina or Smith.

    Every mock ive seen has the Lakers taking Hunter. If I were La, id take Culver or Reddish as theyre higher upside players and SG in particular has been an issue post Kobe.
     
  35. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    It's a great question but it has an easy answer.

    I like Brandon Clarke better than Donovan Mitchell. Hands down. You're right that I was very, very high on Donovan. But Clarke is more special. I think Brandon Clarke can do more on a basketball court than Donovan Mitchell can.

    I struggle to think what he CANNOT do at least reasonably well on a basketball court. I know what he does exceptionally well. But I also think he does everything else at least reasonably well. I think he's a 1 thru 5 player.

    He's played point guard before, back in high school and junior high. He's so smart on a basketball court. He has such good hands and eyes. His mental wiring is great. And at 6'8" he tested out like John Wall does as far as speed and agility are concerned. John Wall, back in the day, was said to have "killed" his Combine...and Brandon Clarke at 6'8" basically had the same Combine except better.

    I've gone through how much better of a shooter Clarke is after reconstructing his shot during his transfer year. The numbers don't lie. He's 51% on NBA 2-pointers away from the rim (65 of 128). His 3-point shot isn't a "work in progress" so much as it is merely untested. He only took 10 NBA 3-pointers, making 4 of them.

    His defensive rating is ridiculous. He clearly has the shot blocking down. But he's also had two years of ~1.5 steals per game. I mean, that's not Briante Weber, but it is about what Dwyane Wade has done his whole career.

    And I go back to the fact Clarke has agility and speed that tests out like a point guard...yet he's a Center by trade at Gonzaga and has been a ridiculously successful defensive player at that position. He is a 1 thru 5 player.

    But think about the fact he totally reconstructed his shot during his transfer year. Think what a testament that is to his work ethic and character as a basketball player, his willingness to ask hard questions about himself and make hard choices. It wasn't something his Gonzaga coaches told him to do.

    You ask any coach that has coached great players. They will tell you, there's a difference between putting in your time, executing your routine, versus having a great work ethic. Great work ethic means always challenging yourself and finding new ways to work on what you're not perfect at. There's a desperation involved in a great work ethic.

     
    Last edited: May 29, 2019
  36. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Same guy has pushed the idea that Goran and Hassan are opting out. But 5R have been told point blank from someone who would be in the absolute best position to know, that there isn't a chance in hell that happens.
     
  37. sports24/7

    sports24/7 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Well, I certainly trust their sources better than his. They said there isn't a chance in hell those guys opt out, or that they move up in the draft? Both sound like long shots.
     
  38. sports24/7

    sports24/7 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Yeah, I can't see how anyone could pass on RJ for Culver (although never say never when James Dolan is involved), even though I do like Culver.

    If the Lakers are all in to win now (which, why get LeBron if you aren't), I'm not sure there's a better fit next to LeBron (and Kyrie if that happens) than Reddish. That team badly needs shooters. Getting a 3 and D guy, that has the potential to be more in Reddish is about as much as they can ask for. If not, trade the pick for a proven player. If you can't get AD, go get Bradley Beal (although I hope Miami gets him). Who knows what Pelinka is going to do, though. That organization is an absolute clown show right now.
     
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  39. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    The opting out. They've also confirmed that he is not the person he has told some people that he is, if that makes sense. He's claiming to have a certain relationship with someone in order to I guess give him some credibility, but the 5R have confirmed that he is incontrovertibly not that person.
     
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  40. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Brandon Clarke factoid of the day.

    On March 23rd, Brandon Clarke joined Shaquille O'Neal and David Robinson as the only players to have 35+ points and 5+ blocks in a NCAA Tournament game.
     

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