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Ireland: Beck Had More Upside

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Georgia Fin, Aug 31, 2008.

  1. SuncoastFinsFan

    SuncoastFinsFan Banned

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    What? Are you serious? I would take a fifth for Beck. I think with two fifth rounders and three seventh rounders, we could find a third string QB that isn't very good which is what Beck is.

    As a matter of fact, as long as we are talking upside, I think Matt Gutierrez has more upside than Beck. And IIRC, hes a FA, just cut from the Pats.
     
  2. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    You also should not go around picking up and dropping off Qb's that have talent at the drop of a hat every year....and Beck HAS talent and plenty of upside.

    signed:

    Jeff Ireland
     
  3. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    To me its funny. Beck may never make it, but to me I find it funny those that dislike him will always find an angle as to teh Triage clearly getting rid of Beck no matter what obstacle Beck clears. Every time it is because the triage is setting him up to leave. Clearly an I wont be wrong or ever admit I could be syndrome. You may be right, but to this point arent clearly even in teh ballpark yet.
     
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  4. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I don't see it that way. Glenn was older but he would have been cheap and would help teach the young wrs the game. Bentley is young. If healthy he's a no-brainer even at a higher salary. IMO rebuilding doesn't mean no vets. It means you bring in guys who you reasonably expect will be with the team and playing at a high level 3-4 years from now. And realistically you may need to bring in older guys to fill immediate holes but you don't put out big contracts for those guys.

    Retooling is different. Your window is one or two years and you're bringing in high priced vets to make your run now.
     
  5. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    That's the difference between you and the FO. They see more upside in Beck.
     
  6. Themole

    Themole Season Ticket Holder

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    I think I'm putting my money on the FO. Aren't you?
     
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  7. FiN.in.RI

    FiN.in.RI Paul pierced through..

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    More upside than Josh McCown. That speaks volumes. Wonderful.
     
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  8. SuncoastFinsFan

    SuncoastFinsFan Banned

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    Really Jeff? ROFLMAO. Funny how you are dropping and signing and shopping players all over here this past week. You even entertained an offer for the said player.

    Jeff, just make sure that your first two QBs are ready to go. And if you can get a fifth for your THIRD STRINGER, you damn sure better take it, or you'll be replacing Matt Millen in Detroit.

    Signed: Bill Parcells (the man with proven success in this league)!!!
     
  9. SuncoastFinsFan

    SuncoastFinsFan Banned

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    Yes, keeping him around as a third rounder running the scout team really reflects how much confidence they have in him. You are very astute, Rafael. :tongue2:
     
  10. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    So what happened to "I trust Bill Parcells?"

    People, we are in rebuilding mode. I'm not sure that concept has fully sunk in for some of you, so I'll elaborate on what precisely that means: you acquire young and immature talent, you coach them up and let them grow into their roles, and then you let them compete against each other for their jobs. The presence of Chad Henne does not negate the potential of John Beck to be a franchise QB, just as the presence of John Beck does not negate the possibility of Chad Henne being a franchise QB. The point is that you have to develop them first.

    Putting all our eggs in one basket is what got us into this mess in the first place. Never forget what Dave Wannstedt said when Trent Green hit free agency and was still a stellar player: "What can Trent Green do that Jay Fiedler can't?" I see a horrifying amount of people echoing that same sentiment, just with different players.
     
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  11. SuncoastFinsFan

    SuncoastFinsFan Banned

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    Definitely. We'll see down the road who was right about Becks Upside. :up:
     
  12. Brown42000

    Brown42000 Chillin

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    The talent of John Beck negates his ability to become a franchise quarterback. Still don't know what people see in him to have so much love for the guy.
     
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  13. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    You're joking. You must be.

    Somewhere out there, someone has coined a term parallel to Wannyball to describe Wannstedt's ability to identify, obtain, and develop talent. That term applies to everything you just wrote.

    :pity:
     
  14. SuncoastFinsFan

    SuncoastFinsFan Banned

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    ROFL...yeah, speaks volumes.

    Signed: Suncoastfinsfan! :wink2:
     
  15. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    Go watch BYU film. Plenty of it on YouTube. There's a reason scouts described him as a taller Drew Brees. (With a stronger arm, at that.)
     
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  16. Brown42000

    Brown42000 Chillin

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    I watched plenty of it last season and draft day. College talent and performance doesn't always translate to the NFL and I think Beck is one of those guys. This coming from a guy who had faith in him becoming the future at quarterback but he hasn't shown me a thing to make me think he can fill that role.
     
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  17. Celtkin

    Celtkin <B>Webmaster</b> Luxury Box

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    Gentlemen - lets keep this thread civil. I don't want to have to delete any more posts.
     
  18. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I disagree, sure they have picked up and dropped off some players, a Qb is a different matter, they take grooming, and for a #3 Qb, it is not a bad idea to have a guy with a high upside in that slot, especially on a rebuilding team.

    At worst, he carries a clip board and learns what the NFL is all about, at best, a team becomes desparate and offers something better then a throw away pick.

    Better a John Beck at #3 then a Casey Bramlett...:wink2:
     
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  19. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    Then you don't know what you were looking at. There are certain indicators of a college QB's ability to effectively transition to the NFL. Among them is a high completion percentage (60% is considered a good barometer) and the repeated ability to complete anticipation throws, where the QB throws the ball before the receiver makes his break to get open. Go back and watch the footage and you'll note that Beck makes plenty of anticipation throws, meaning he has the basic tools to adapt to the NFL where such throws are standard.

    Back to the completion percentage for a second, I'll let the numbers do the talking.

    2003: 50.3% CMP
    2004: 56.0% CMP
    2005: 64.5% CMP
    2006: 69.3% CMP

    It took two years for the light to turn on. He eventually put up 11,021 passing yards and 79 TDs, the bulk of that coming in 2005 and 2006. When Beck's light comes on, it comes on.

    I'm going to list some of the four year statistics of two college quarterbacks. Can you guess which numbers belong to which QB?

    Quarterback A:
    Year 1: 78/145, 864 yards, 5 TDs, 5 INTs, 11 sacks
    Year 2: 192/343, 2563 yards, 15 TDs, 8 INTs, 31 sacks
    Year 3: 331/513, 3709 yards, 27 TDs, 13 INTs, 25 sacks
    Year 4: 289/417, 3885 yards, 32 TDs, 8 INTs, 15 sacks

    Quarterback B:
    Year 1: 240/399, 2743 yards, 25 TDs, 12 INTs, 29 sacks
    Year 2: 223/382, 2526 yards, 23 TDs, 8 INTs, 21 sacks
    Year 3: 203/328, 2508 yards, 22 TDs, 8 INTs, 24 sacks
    Year 4: 162/278, 1938 yards, 17 TDs, 9 INTs, 16 sacks

    Quarterback A is Beck, Quarterback B is Henne. Henne made and immediate and consistent impact (as he did in the preseason games), but only outproduced Beck in career TDs after Beck came on. This is what Jeff Ireland means by upside: the high ceiling Beck can achieve when he acclimates to the level of play. Henne offers consistency, Beck offers a potential higher level of play. This is why we kept both of them, and this is likely why Sparano vaguely mentioned Henne as being a possible starter this year. They know what to expect from him.

    And by the way, just for fun: Beck's completion percentage in 2007 was 56.1%, better than Troy Aikman's first year (52.9%), Drew Brees' first year (55.6%), Trent Green's first starting season (54.6%) Donovan McNabb's first year (49.1%), and is nearly equivalent with both of Derek Anderson's years (56.4% in 2006, 56.5% in 2007.)

    Beck hasn't "shown you a thing" because you don't know what you're looking at.
     
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  20. The Dude

    The Dude Anti Jet

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    you get an "A" on your homework....
     
  21. SuncoastFinsFan

    SuncoastFinsFan Banned

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    Yeah. Okay. Whatever.
     
  22. SuncoastFinsFan

    SuncoastFinsFan Banned

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    And while you are at it, go watch David Klingler play when he was at UH, David Carr when he was at Fresno St, and Alex Smith when he was at Utah.

    Then understand that you are watching COLLEGE FOOTBALL and it doesn't translate the NFL.
     
  23. The Dude

    The Dude Anti Jet

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    you forgot Ryan Leaf. :pointlol:
     
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  24. SuncoastFinsFan

    SuncoastFinsFan Banned

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    Fair enough.
     
  25. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Very nice stats but for all the work the bottom line is he has flopped in his time in the NFL. Stats are meaningless. Matt Ryan had a bunch of interceptions last year. But when the Falcons analyzed the flim tape of his games they realized alot of them were the fault of the receivers. There's an article somewhere that there were approximately 30 drops by the receivers which would have boosted his stats immeasurably. The only way to scout a QB is through the eyeball test. Stats are for fantasy football. Reality football is a completely different animal.

    Beck is failing because he's a small little QB who makes Cleveland Browns in his pants everytime he sees a pass rush. To bank on Beck's ability to succeed is to bank on his being able to overcome his natural instincts for self preservation.

    His uber meltdown last year was a sign that he isnt mentally capable of handling the physical punishment that comes in this game.

    Horrible pick by Cameron
     
  26. SuncoastFinsFan

    SuncoastFinsFan Banned

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    I know what I am looking at. I am looking at Chad Henne being groomed to start and John Beck being groomed to fight off a competitor for the Emergency QB position every year.:tongue2:
     
  27. slickj101

    slickj101 Is Water

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    I dont understand how people cant wrap their heads around that fact. Some people talk like Beck's been in the league for 4-5 years and still hasnt done anything.

    The guys played 4 games and has seen only 2 TC. I'm not saying start him, but give him time to develop. No sense in pissing away a 2nd round pick after not even 2 seasons.
     
  28. Brown42000

    Brown42000 Chillin

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    Adamprez took the words right out of my mouth.
     
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  29. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    This is pretty much what it boils down to, I've noticed. He's a Cameron pick, therefore he needs to go. Ginn was the target of a lot of this nonsense as well. It makes no sense to me, but you're free to believe whatever you want.
     
  30. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    That has to be the most positive post I've ever seen you make about John Beck...

    Makes the Cleveland Browns in his pants...:lol:

    Funny thing is, he got the snot knocked out of him last year and popped up and played fairly well, IMO his trouble is learning the position at the NFL level, I'm banking on a year of Sparano *** chewings will toughen him up a bit mentally, that is where his issues are.

    That shotgun mostly offense is not doing those Qb's any good in the NFL..
     
  31. Brown42000

    Brown42000 Chillin

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    That has nothing to do with it guy. It has everything to do with him not having "it".
     
  32. Larryfinfan

    Larryfinfan 17-0...Priceless Club Member

    On the other hand, I don't see what Beck has done so bad that you don't have any love for him ?? The one thing that I don't understand is the impatience of some fans when it comes to developing players, particularly QBs...

    This regime let Romo sit on the bench for 3 yrs before giving him the reigns... If Bill had given up on Romo after one season, where'd Dallas be now ?? I'm not advocating that Beck is anything more than what he has shown yet, but there is still reason for optimism that he's not the same guy we saw Camcam and co. treat like the neighbor's cat... Throwing him out now just wasn't a sound football decision and I'm glad that's the decision they made...despite what some fans may think of the kid...
     
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  33. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    We've had these every year. Before Beck it was Culpepper, Before Culpepper it was Frerotte. I dont really remember a Fiedler lovefest thank god. Its probably more to do with just wishing so bad this team finds a QB that eventually you just start seeing potential greatness in anyone new. Hoping he is "the one"
     
  34. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    Somewhere, Steve Young is shaking his head.
     
  35. slickj101

    slickj101 Is Water

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    Exactly, I think a lot of our fans really look foolish when they expect every QB to come in and look like Marino or Rothlisberger and instantly pick everything up. It doesn't work like that the majority of the time.
     
  36. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    i got to agree with this decision. Sure, McCown has starting experience, but he's done nothing to show he's worthy of a roster spot for us. Im glad we were able to move him and get a draft pick.
     
  37. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Thats a very good point. The days of traditional offenses in college are growing ever more scarce and these guys come in here having to learn the position from scratch almost. You could be right in that he still hasnt learned the offense

    I agree that its the mental part thats causing him to fail. Whether its fear of being hit or fear of failing or fear of not knowing what to do, he is one of the most nervous QBs I have ever seen. Maybe he needs to hang out with Ricky after work and learn to "relax"
     
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  38. Brown42000

    Brown42000 Chillin

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    I'm all for letting a player develop when I think he can become starter material and with Beck I just don't see it.

    Romo was an undrafted rookie out of Eastern Illinois he needed to sit on the bench and watch if he was going to become a player. IIRC Parcells was going to cut Romo but Sean Payon convinced Bill to keep him around because he saw potential.
     
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  39. Themole

    Themole Season Ticket Holder

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    I would like to add to that; You DON'T give up on second round picks so soon. Haste makes waste!
     
  40. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    Bill Parcells, Jeff Ireland, Tony Sparano, David Lee, Cam Cameron, Randy Mueller, Mike Martz, Jerry Jones, and a bevy of NFL talent scouts disagree with you.

    On the other hand, Matt Millen agrees with you. He took Drew Stanton over Beck.
     

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