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My plan (rooted in frustration)

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by tirty8, Sep 15, 2019.

  1. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    I am really heated right now, and in my anger I think I may have stumbled on an idea. I still think in the back of my mind, we never truly got to see what Tannehill had to offer due to our awful line. It felt like every time he had games where he had time to set, read, and throw, he looked good. What is happening with Fitz's line is borderline criminal. How do you honestly evaluate Rosen or Fitzmagic. It just isn't possible. Honestly, I am fed up with having an awful line.

    I think we all know that we are tanking for Tua. Great. Draft him at #1 overall. I honestly think that within reason, we should use the rest of our draft picks to put together a solid offensive line once and for all. I am using Dallas as a model except it is expedited all within year. I really think that having a good young line, like the Cowboys puts them in position to succeed for the long run. In my mind, Jesse Davis is the only guy worth keeping. Everyone else can go. If Deiter pans out, that is a bonus at this point. But I want blue chip guys in the trenches.

    Now here is the caveat. This is not something we do blindly. If a solid, young free agent is available, I would go as far as to advocate overpaying for this guy. We have so much money and this is such a big problem, it merits significant resources. I would also say that drafting pass rushers would also be a reason for to pass on a lineman.

    I don't want to be misunderstood. This is a "fluid plan," but the overall goal is to put together a young, solid offensive line that can be the cornerstone of our team. But let me be clear, the plan is to fix the offensive line for the next decade in one offseason.

    Am I crazy?
     
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  2. The Guy

    The Guy Well-Known Member

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    How can you expect an offensive line to do well in pass protection when opposing teams are scoring 51 points a game and the offense is playing from way behind throughout every game?
     
  3. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    I would hope that we would have more than 2 first downs in a half because of our offensive line. I would think that it would lead to longer time of position on offense. Hence our defense isn't always on the field. Hence we actually score points. Hence we are not giving up 51 points per game.
     
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  4. The Guy

    The Guy Well-Known Member

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    Currently the team is last in the league in points per game surrendered, rushing yards surrendered, passing yards surrendered, and opposing passer rating surrendered. The opposing passer rating is 155, which is from another universe entirely.
     
  5. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    IMO we are so talent starved it doesn't really matter which positions we fill first (after QB). The MOST important thing is that we don't pick busts. So if the picks are OL fine, but if they're not OL also great. Just make sure we pick solid starters. This isn't a 1-year plan anyway.
     
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  6. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    But it's supposed to be a 1-year "tank" (even tho we're not tanking). As long as we're starting CFL level linemen though, the tank will continue whether it's named or not.
     
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  7. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    My thought is that for the most part, early round offensive linemen pan out. Sometimes they don't work exactly as planned and tackles move to guard, but it feels like you can get something out of them. I feel like other positions are busts at much higher clips than linemen.

    Your thoughts?
     
  8. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    If Tua isn't a bust and we get a few solid starters in the draft AND get some quality players in FA (remember we have a lot of cap space) then we're at minimum back to a 6-8 win team and picking middle of the draft order. This is why it's important to stockpile picks now so that we can use them in 2021 to fill in some remaining holes. I think realistically this is a 1-year tank job with 2 offseasons to get us to contender level in 2021 or 2022. We're not tanking 2 years. If that becomes necessary then this FO is totally incompetent.
     
  9. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Statistically OL is the safest pick so I have no qualms about picking OL early. Just saying that there's no need to force the issue in 1 draft. I absolutely do agree with you that after 2 drafts we have to have a solid OL in 2021 but not necessarily in 2020.
     
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  10. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    Suck it up, whiners.

    The Dolphins have never experienced a true rebuild. It's always been a retooling process with unrealistic expectations of remaining heavily competitive which was evident by the annual gifts of large contracts to undeserving FA's and underachieving team members.

    There is also a great deal to be discovered from losing. There are invaluable lessons to be learned about yourself or an individual, as it exposes everyone's true character within the organization for the team's leaders and coaches alike. Players such as Minkah (he personally praised his own versatility) and Drake (rumored to also request a trade) have never experienced fortitude in this regard. Essentially, they were spoiled football players coming out of college. This is also why I have no desire for QB prospect Tua Tagovailoa. Case and point, Belichick, despite his tight relationship with Saban, rarely has Alabama players on his roster or others of the sort. The Patriots, more or less, are filled with hard working, smaller school players or those rejected from other teams looking for redemption. Hard pass on Tua in that respect.

    Flores is the right guy. He had to come in and dig that hole just a little deeper to clean out the crap from previous regimes before he begins to fill it up properly. And Tannanbaum, Gase, etc. dug a pretty deep and ****-stained hole to climb out of. Rebuilding is a very difficult process, not a ****ing picnic.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2019
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  11. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    Tannehill can have the Cowboys offensive line, he simply just doesn’t have IT. That’s why he’s a backup quarterback now.
     
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  12. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    So what do you think? A true BPA? I think that was the problem with Minkah. He really was the BPA, but we had so many other needs. I know we need to get significantly better in a lot of different areas, but I think there needs to be a plan.

    I guess this is my problem with Grier. I've seen two drafts, but I don't see a vision. For the life of me, I have no idea what kind of team he is building.
     
  13. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    What's your QB solution out of curiosity? Rosen? Someone in 2020 other than Tua? Wait for 2021?

    I think it would be interesting that 2 of our biggest malcontents are Bama guys if the Drake report is true. Probably guys who really never struggled at any level suddenly thrust into a losing situation. My usual biggest issue with Saban players is that they often seem maxed when they hit the NFL. I'm no expert, but I'm not sure Tua is in that same mold, he's certainly a different QB than Saban has really produced, but it's a long season (NFL and College) and lots of games to be played.
     
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  14. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    I bring this up a fair bit, but I am seeing us basically do a very similar thing to what was begun here in Detroit a year ago. They hired a Pats guy as GM and let him have 1 (maybe 2) drafts while still having Jim Caldwell as HC. Caldwell was then fired, and Matt Patricia (Pats guy again) brought in. While they haven't done a wholesale teardown, there has been a lot of noise that is sounding familiar. Lack of vision, odd draft picks, etc ... but people who really seem to know schemes and such all says it's just adjusting from Caldwell to a very specific model under Patricia. That many of the picks made by the same guy were essentially for an entirely different coach and system and just ... don't work well. Also lots of locker room noise, players struggling to buy in, etc.

    It's definitely a process, and so far Patricia hasn't come out ahead of it, but he also seems like a total douche based on his media appearances. We will see if Grier and Flores can manage better.
     
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  15. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Oh I agree. You HAVE to have a plan, and I'd go BPA as long as that player fits within the plan.

    Minkah is interesting. A better coach would not only know how to use him but also know how to motivate the guy. Some of the stuff we've seen recently with him isn't just an issue with the player IMO but also the coach not knowing how to push the right buttons.
     
  16. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    Okay, I do see this with sorta a blend of what the Raiders did.

    One thing is that I feel like Gruden calls a good game. I would love to know what O'Shea's scheme looks like with a reasonable amount of time to pass.
     
  17. Losferwords

    Losferwords Member

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    You could have given that albatross the 90' Dallas Oline and he still would have sucked.
     
  18. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    LOL. You don't put up with poor attitudes or malcontent, that's what good coaches do. 2nd rd pick Jamie Collins was an excellent LB that Belichick & Co. couldn't get thru to until they shipped him off to Cleveland for a lower 3rd rd pick. Then after he learned better, he resigned with the Patriots for cheap low risk high reward contract in favor of the Pats.

    Don't be foolish, Flores knows good and damn well how to utilize Fitzpatrick. He did so with many similar players on the regular with the same versatile and flexible defense during his tenure in NE. Flores is simply putting poor attitudes in check and figuring out who wants to work for it, and separating out those that think they deserve it. Flores knows defense and defensive personnel, and he knows they must be multifaceted in positional knowledge and cross trained appropriately. Minkah wanting a high profile position to eventually obtain a big contract is what is being snuffed out here.
     
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  19. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Yeah and Parcells was famous for knowing how to "push the right buttons". No I do not for once think that all the malcontent we've seen from Minkah recently HAD to happen. We're dealing with human beings here and their views can be altered with the right approach.
     
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  20. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    For some yes, but not all. One quick, simple example during Parcells first HC stint with NY is DE Hugh Douglas. From defensive rookie of the year to being traded two years later to Philly where he continued a good career.

    While motivation needs to be extracted from players, which is essentially a coaches job, you don't put up with whining and BS. You trade that nonsense for compensation and move on with your plan.
     
  21. I'm back after a long absence....
    I've noticed that majority of fans don't get that after we have gone through all next year's draft and 2021 (Tua, Oline picks) with 130 million in cap space (So far) you all see that they would be able to sign many players next year and 2021 during free agency and really start to build this team the way it should be?
    No one seems to mention that, or maybe i've spent too much time reading the hostile posts over at that other dolphins board lol..
     
  22. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    I agree in principle, but let's just be clear about one thing: Flores isn't Parcells (yet). It's not like Flores has a good track record of snipping malcontent in the bud or motivating players and that Minkah just happens to be the one player he can't get through to. In fact, right now it looks like the other way around with so many players expressing malcontent.

    So based on the very little we've seen so far with Flores I think it's perfectly fair to question the coach as much as the player. Flores will have to prove to me that he's a good NFL coach before I'll think differently, and nothing I've seen so far demonstrates that. Of course, it's VERY early in his tenure so who knows, but that's where I stand right now.
     
  23. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    Ha. Besides spoiled Minkah requesting a trade, who else you've got?

    Also of note, that supposed news of multi-player "malcontent" came from Mike Florio. I wouldn't recommend siding with such a persona whose recent paltry reporting career relies so heavily on clickbait being as he is owner of a website. Take some advice from one of the best ever: “Especially guys like Mike Florio,” Rodgers told reporters on Wednesday. “Don’t waste your time reading crap like that.”
     
  24. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Where does this notion of an NFL HC being a nurturer come from?
     
  25. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    We were supposed to draft interior lineman in this past draft. I thought we did? Kind of?
    The goal every damn year can't be simply to build the O line. We've been doing this since I was twenty, and I'm about to turn 38.
    Overall this isn't some simple fix obviously, but....75 percent of our problems will go away once we draft a franchise quarterback to lead us.
     
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  26. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Salguero independently confirmed such trade talk rumors for at least 3 players for what it's worth:
    https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/...dDDbx69VYsMRy4p2RlY_St-_69a3n8n0PvzVJTZQb2L18
     
  27. Irishman

    Irishman Well-Known Member

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    " .... their views can be altered with the right approach". Don't kid yourself.

    The only approach that works for the players that complain and use "I want to get traded" as a threat, is what they learn once they get traded. They all believe that it won't happen to them because they were high draft picks. It's clear to me that most of those guys believe their own hype!
     
  28. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The O-line has been purposefully depleted as part of the tank. So has the defensive line. We traded both Cam Wake who could've added something as a pass rusher as well as Laremy Tunsil who most assuredly would've been a bright spot on the O-line.

    It's not a secret what's being done. You can't put horrible players on the field, watch them get blasted and yet still act "frustrated." If you're surprised by the outcomes, then you must believe this team is actually trying to win games. I can assure you. They are not. I'm sorry you have to watch this but it's the team's chosen path forward.

    As for your "plan," I would simply advise you not to over analyze. The team will undoubtedly spend draft picks and free agent dollars on offensive and defensive linemen over the next couple years. They are coming. The front office understand the importance of good linemen, which is why they depleted the trenches--they knew it would amount to suicide.

    If you get rid of all your weapons and high-profile players around the perimeter it's obvious you're tanking. What the Dolphins did was keep those peripheral names in place while hollowing out the core guys inside. This assures the team will make a few splashy plays but will ultimately lose game after game.

    What can I say. They're tanking. Just push through, dude.

    And insofar as "evaluating" the QB's you mentioned, well, we have plenty of data on Ryan Tannehill and Ryan Fitzpatrick. Nobody needs any more info to evaluate either of them. When it comes to Josh Rosen, I don't think the front office is looking for an immediate try-out. They are more interested in him as a long-term project. He has physical potential but lacks experience in any offense. He has jumped from play-book to play-book every year going back to high-school. So he's way behind in terms of his mental development. Many of his peers are simply more polished at this stage. That isn't his fault but it makes him a project rather than a plug-in solution.

    The best thing for a guy like that is to sit back and learn, picking up experience while he can. If he's good enough to play some this year and compete for starting reps next year, that'll be great. That's his job IMHO. But do not expect him to be very good this year. At best he'll be winging it. A more prudent course of action is to develop him in a controlled manner so he's not simply thrown to the wolves. I think that's the plan.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019
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  29. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    I think our biggest issue has been OL drafting 2nd-5th round. Most teams are able to get solid to good OL in those rounds and we’ve consistent whiffed there. Whether that’s coaching or talent evaluation remains to be seen. If you can hit in those rounds and use 1st or 2nd rounders on impact players or play makers, you’re gonna be doing pretty good. When you miss as often as we do, forces you to use higher picks to patch hole the OL.

    2nd round- Jonathan Martin
    3rd round- Billy Turner, Dallas Thomas, John Jerry, Michael Dieter
    4th round- Jamil Douglas
    5th round- Isaac Asiata

    Not one solid starter there(Dieter too soon to tell).
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019
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  30. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It's true, only one of those guys ever amounted to anything (not including Dieter yet).
     
  31. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    @Carmen Cygni

    Also interested to hear who you like on the quarterback option front, if not for the sake of discussion.
     
  32. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    This is the very reason why I don't think that the front office takes o-line seriously.
     
  33. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End Club Member

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    Welcome Aboard. I've been saying this for the last couple years.

    A great QB helps but an above average line has to go with it. It doesn't matter what you have at skill positions if you can't pass block or open running lanes. Granted a truly great QB can mitigate some of that but really how many of those guys are out there? This is why I have been vehemently opposed to the trade of Tunsil I don't care what we got in compensation but I do understand why we bit. QB value for an O lineman is unheard of. The problem I have is that as a team we have been awful at picking O linemen for years. It's like their attitude is it's just a bunch of big guys that get in the way, any big guy can do it. How's that look right now? The only time we have been successful in the last 10 years have been no brainer picks like Tunsil falling in our lap. Honestly, I don't like ANY of our O linemen and I really think we need to draft/sign 5 above average starters AND 3 capable backups. I think it is that bare. And No I'm not a fan of Davis. Dieter remains to be seen.

    We can and should draft Tua in the draft but the problem will still remain if we don't fix the line at the same time or we will hear how much Tua sucks or what is wrong with Tua and everyone will be screaming for a new QB and how we have to tank for another.

    It's amazing how good Receivers look when given a moment to run their routes or running backs have actual holes to run through. Don't even think about how good a QB can look with 3 seconds to throw, or more, in the pocket.
     
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  34. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End Club Member

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    Frankly, I don't think that Dak is all that. Put him behind the line we have had and I can assure you he is no better than Tannehill.
     
  35. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End Club Member

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    A thousand Times THIS!!!
     
  36. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    Pretty much this.

    Also Tannehill still wouldnt be able to carry a team on his own, but I guarantee you behind the best line in football opinions of him would be very different.

    Hes one QB who has deficiencies yes, but most would be hidden behind an elite line like that.
     
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  37. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    Appreciate the interest in my opinion, but concerning the QB front, and I know it sounds crazy, but I don't care who are QB is to be completely honest. I don't like QB's and am vehemently against spending unnecessary resources to try and find the "right one". Build a solid, all-around team that believes in the HC's vision and you'll have yourself a contender. That's just my personal philosophy.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019
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  38. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    Yikes, I had almost forgotten just how horrible Salguero is. His defensive assessments there are so far off, I'm actually embarrassed for him. There was deep safety help and there was also the occasion for the responsibility of a defender, usually a LB or S designated by playcall, to shadow the elusive runner that Jackson is. It's a pick your poison scenario. Now whether or not those safeties were pulled off their mark or towards the hashes were a result of the player's gameplay reaction, not necessarily misguided playcalling. No surprise either considering that was McCain's first time in real action back there. There were also a fair amount of miscommunications. Again, to be expected in a brand new scheme.

    No names listed in the article. Simply another rumor until otherwise noted.
     
  39. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Put ANY quarterback behind put offensive line and he’d be no better than Tannehill
     
  40. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    I cant believe people still want Tannehill here... I want you guys to watch Mahomes play, see his footwork, see his reads. That’s all you need to know how a guy that has only started 1 full season is lightyears ahead of Tannehill. And hes not the only example. Deshaun Watson, Goff, Wentz, Hell even Josh Allen. I watched some of the Bills game yesterday and I was like wow, the ****ing POS Bills got themselves a damn quarterback..

    They just get it, they know how to move around the pocket, they know how to help their offensive line by moving the pocket, they know what reads to make, they know how to sell a play correctly. Tannehill was nothing more than measurables, a strong arm. A more talented Kaepernick.. but his football IQ was below standards for a franchise qb.
     

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