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A word of warning for next season....

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by inFINSible, Dec 2, 2019.

  1. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    I've come to realize my issues arent with Flores but are with the fanbase prematurely crowning him based on what I perceive as exactly what was expected this season. I made a long post about it in another thread.
     
  2. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores & Team Tua

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    lol!
     
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  3. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    Listen, I 100% agree with you on that. I have been a Dolphins' fan for a long time, and I have seen this happen a lot to the detriment of the team.

    For whatever reason, I think Phins' fans lock into their first impressions of a player/coach. I think one of the worst things to happen to the Dolphins was Gase making the playoffs his first year. I think a lot of people on this board could never quite get past that impression. Years later, it became apparent that he was not the guy, and he benefitted from a historic season from Jay Ajayi. Gase did what any coach would do - give him the ball. People on this very board would argue during his .500~ seasons that he was just winning. You would hear convoluted arguments that despite being near the bottom of the league statistically speaking, just barely winning games, and winning in flukish ways, "Gase was a winner." Like I have said before, I really think people on this board to this day will tell you that if Gase was the HC in Miami, we would be in Super Bowl contention.

    I'll give you a player that came in with much fanfare. Remember when the Dolphins were bold and traded up for Dion Jordan? There was a lot of excitement about that pick. He brought exceptional athleticism and a great highlight real. His first season was lackluster. His second season was another dud, and he got his first suspension. He wound up missing his third season due to another suspension. At this point, I was vehemently arguing to get rid of him by any means necessary. The facts were telling you A- he was not very good when he played and B- Football was not very important to him. But again, that first taste got a lot of fans. They "saw something" on those highlight reels. I would see people posting one isolated play where he covered Gronk or lined up at tight end. It was like they ignored 97% of the evidence and focused only on the information that supported the conclusion that they have already made. Meanwhile, you see a guy that puts himself first, lacks effort, and does not perform well on the team. Ask yourself, "What kind of message do you think it sends to the other players?"

    Okay, now lemme tell you why Flores is different. Most obviously, this is the most untalented team that the Dolphins have ever fielded. Remember when I said that Gase leaned on Ajayi? Flores doesn't have a single player like that. Think about this. I couldn't think of one player on our team that is lifting our entire team. If any one player on the team was out for the year, I would not expect that to change our total wins and losses for the rest of the year. Player progression is another thing that we have not seen. You are seeing draft picks finally live up to their billing. Flores adapts. Gase would never admit that he was wrong. With this staff, if something isn't working, they will not keep doing it because of their "philosophy." Watch how we move the ball on drives even if they do not result in points. In both the Philbin and Gase eras, three and out was the norm. First downs were littered with penalties and loss of yardage. This led to an exhausted defense later in the game. I would just watch this happen and think that there was no way that this could build a long term winning franchise. Finally, another point that I alluded to earlier was that when we win this year, we really look like we are the better team. It doesn't feel like we are lucky. It feels like we are better. Even when we were down two scores to the Eagles, I felt like we could come back and win. Just think about that. I can't remember the last time I felt that way.
     
  4. Patster1969

    Patster1969 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    But that's what I don't understand. If you agreed with his hiring, I don't understand why you now think he's a terrible coach, when he's got this team of not a lot of talent to 3 wins, players that fans felt were a waste of a draft pick are now offering production, when the media felt that this was the WORST team in NFL history and that they were putting players in danger with the product on the field. Surely you can't just be basing it on his interviews (when he rightly gives the media nothing) and because you think he looks lost on the sideline.
     
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  5. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores & Team Tua

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    How can a fan liking a HC or player be detrimental to the team? It doesn’t matter who we like or dislike nor what our opinions are. Sure, it’s nice to make friends here at The Phins and banter things around, but other than that it doesn’t really matter one way or the other.
     
  6. inFINSible

    inFINSible Bad ministrator

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    Thanks for the advice, I'll take into consideration. Until I perfect my paragraph skills, do yourself a favor and try to avoid anything you see that I have written.
     
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  7. inFINSible

    inFINSible Bad ministrator

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    I have my reservations about Flores from being conditioned into not trusting or being optimistic by this franchise and often by other fans negativity towards everything this team does. But nothing he's done THIS year has made those reservations any stronger.
    I don't like that Minkah got shipped out for not wanting to be here. Personally, I would have made him stay and stuck him on the bench. But I'm not a HC in the NFL and they probably wouldn't let me do that anyway with Fitzpatrick making more money than me....but that's what I'd have done if I could get away with it.
    That's the only move that I can think of that is even questionable, and that was green stamped by everyone in the org, not just Flores.
    I forget who said it earlier but yeah, this team is going to be a lot different next year than what we are currently seeing. All teams are different every year except for a very select few positions so it's up to the HC to establish a culture that everyon conforms to rather than conforming to new players attitudes. The players may change but the team doesn't. It's kinda like It's an ever changing constant.
    I think Flores was in New England long nough to really understand that concept and learn the ins and outs of making it work. We'll see next year and I'm betting we'll be happy with what we see, be cause god damnit I'm still a stupid optimist when it comes to this team.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 9, 2019
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  8. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    The thing is I always expected 3-5 wins if Fitz started and so did many others here before the season started. So to me I havent seen anything I didnt 100% expect already.

    When we beat the Jets and Colts we had a clear advantage at the QB position which goes a long way in the NFL. Neither of those wins were very surprising looking at them realistically.

    When the Ravens demolished us everyone dropped their expectations of 3-5 wins with Fitz but I'm just arguing that was premature on our part making the season look better than it is.
     
  9. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Hoyer is on par with FitZ.

    Before the season most people expected 0 to 3 wins. It was rare to read people who had 5 wins
     
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  10. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Yeah the one where you said he disgusts you as a human being..

    I hope you meet that dude one day, bet you wouldn’t say jack.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 9, 2019
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  11. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    That one is pretty old and not the one I'm talking about.

    Also why wouldnt I? I'm not afraid of anyone on Earth. I've been in fights and won some, lost some, but fear is for the pathetic. I dont care if hes an MMA fighter and breaks my face, there is nothing to lose in life but pride and it's better to be broken than be pathetic.

    If he was a good person I'd express that and if I disliked him I'd express that too.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 9, 2019
  12. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    I realize all of the things you said, the issue is you guys are blowing his "success" in these areas way out of proportion.

    I may be talking him way down, but it's just a reaction to underserved accolades being sent his way based on accomplishing nothing.

    When I talk about his intelligence it goes a long way towards keeping staff and attracting more when your initial staff leaves. The issue with Gase was arrogance not his own mental ability, which also plays a huge role in things.

    It reminds of Tannehill early on. I think it was after Arizona maybe his rookie year, may have been a different game, everyone was convinced we had a long term franchise QB based on nothing sustained.

    I also have serious doubts about his ability to coach talented players. Its very easy to motivate guys fighting for their career, I want to see him motivate guys who know Miami isnt their only option to start.

    Remember when Rex Ryan was the next big thing and going to be coaching in NY for decades battling Bill every year for the division?

    All I'm saying is Flores needs to prove basically....everything, before we say how great he is.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2019
  13. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I think that's the issue...I don't think anyone is saying he's gonna be great. But for me, he's far exceeded my expectations following that 0-4 start. The team looked absolutely terrible...0-16 seemed to be a given. We lost more starters to injuries, and yet, the team hasn't quit, and has won 3 games. I see improvement in players and units. What now could you want from the guy? I'd rather be celebrating the good things happening, than being invested in losing so that we can get a higher pick...which is not at all a guarantee of getting the QB we all want. Play the games... Win the ones you win...then use the resources you have to get the QB that you think best fits the team.
     
  14. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    Fans have significantly more power than you give them credit for. We have the power to ride guys out of town. You also have to consider the reality of our situation as Dolphins' fans. We have an owner that is loyal - and in many times to a fault. Remember how long the Jeff Ireland experience lasted?

    I think Ross is getting smarter, but I think that we need to help him at times.
     
  15. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    We have almost no influence. Which draft pick for example could you even start to argue was due to fan pressure? It's usually the other way around: the FO have their own ideas regardless of fan pressure, and for me the best example was not drafting Brees in 2001. Same with personnel moves in general. The FO has its own brain that seems like it's unaffected by fan pressure.

    And which coach did we ride out of town? Ross has in general stuck with coaches well past when most fans wanted him gone.

    As far as Ross getting smarter, I doubt it. If Flores is a success I'm ascribing that to luck not skill. Ross bought 50% of the team in 2008 and 45% more in early 2009. That's now 11 seasons of football with 3 massive failures being hired as HC's where in each case he gave the coach way more time than he should have. He hasn't done any better at GM either, so I see no evidence of him "getting smarter".

    But dumb luck will do. In fact, I think it's dumb luck to find a great HC in most cases so in that sense Ross wouldn't be an exception.
     
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  16. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    Again, I think you might be looking at this from the wrong perspective. I think it is easy to say that every team has the same bar for success - the Super Bowl. I also think that this is lazy thinking. Not every team is in the same position and expectations should rightfully vary from team to team.

    I imagine that you are getting the general vibe that people on this board are relatively happy with Flores's performance. Now imagine if all of a sudden we headed on over to a Cowboys' board. The Cowboys' fans have got to be losing their minds.

    The reason for this disparity is all about expectation. We have a historically untalented team, and the Cowboys have a top 7~ roster in the league. The bars for these two teams were in drastically different places.

    In all honesty, I thought that winning a single game would be a miracle. Vegas seemed to think that we would win around 3 games which we have already met. I think meeting this objective bar is an accomplishment in hitting this bar. My guess is that we will win at least another game and exceed expectations (But I guess we should wait to see if that happens before claiming it as an accomplishment.)

    I am a draft junkie and evaluating talent is something I take great pleasure in. One thing that I have learned to relish is saying that you simply don't have basis to for evaluation. I'll take you back to the Marcus Mariotta draft. There were heated debates about whether or not he could line up under center. People were confident that he could easily do this and people were just as confident that he could not transition to the pro game and line up under center. The right answer was simple, "You have no basis to make any conclusion." In the draft room, the only thing worth discussing should have been, "Is this a risk we are willing to take?"

    I think that you are making evaluations where you simply do not have any evidence to draw any conclusions both positively or negatively. What will happen when the coaching staff turns over? I have no idea. What happens when we get serious talent on this roster? Again, I have no clue. I implore you to withdraw these criticisms and think of these as "incompletes" in your assessment.

    I'll close back on the Marcus Mariotta comparison. In the end, there were people that were wrong and there were people that were right. It is easy to anoint the people that were right as gurus and call the scouts that were wrong fools, but at the end of the day, they were right because they guessed.

    Limit your evaluations to what you can observe. Keep your concerns in the back of your mind, and when the time comes, see how Flores faces these challenges when the arise. I have concerns that you have not mentioned, and I am patiently waiting an opportunity for an opportunity to objectively assess these concerns.
     
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  17. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    Listen, I think we have almost no say in draft picks, but we have a lot of say as to what guy is making the draft picks. Fans can run figure heads out of town (coach, GM, QB).

    I do think we ran Gase out of town. He has had the shortest tenure in Ross's ownership. Remember, he is coming off giving Phlibin one too many years. I am confident that the old Ross would have given him one more year. In fairness, three years is really not enough to assess a coach, but in Gase's situation, three years was enough.

    As far as GM goes. You might be right. I have severe doubts about GM.
     
  18. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    We didn't run Gase out of town. Most fans wanted him gone long before Ross fired him. Ross himself said he made that decision after our season ending loss to Buffalo. In other words, Ross made the decision after the season was over. Also, it was widely reported how the personal relationship between Gase and Ross deteriorated at the end which would explain the timing far more than any fan pressure.

    And while it's technically true that Gase had "the shortest tenure" it's not a factor in this discussion given that the difference is just 4 games between him and Philbin. So no I don't see any evidence we've run any HC out of town.
     
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  19. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    Whether or not I agree on Flores, I do want to say this is good advice not just for me, but anyone in analyzing things from an alternate perspective than they may have.
     
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