1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Ryan Tannehill

Discussion in 'Other NFL' started by bbqpitlover, Oct 16, 2019.

Ryan Tannehill is...

  1. A terrible QB

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. A below average QB

    4 vote(s)
    5.7%
  3. An average QB

    7 vote(s)
    10.0%
  4. An above average QB

    39 vote(s)
    55.7%
  5. An elite QB

    16 vote(s)
    22.9%
  6. The GOAT.

    4 vote(s)
    5.7%
  1. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

    2,474
    2,954
    113
    Dec 13, 2007
    I don't agree that he struggles with pocket presence. He doesn't pull the ball down quickly and run. He stands in the pocket in an attempt to make plays. None of the sacks from the NO were due to a lack of pocket presence.
     
    resnor likes this.
  2. Irishman

    Irishman Well-Known Member

    573
    532
    93
    Oct 16, 2017
    High Point, NC
    Fair enough.

    My interpretation is a bit more literal, but in the end I see it as team against team, offense against defense and direct competition between offensive players and the defensive player countering the offensive players attempts. That's the whole ball game. Anything beyond that relies too much on supposition and fan ego.

    I think my approach is more direct and much more meaningful.
     
    cbrad likes this.
  3. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

    2,474
    2,954
    113
    Dec 13, 2007
    https://thephins.com/threads/titans-to-start-ryan-tannehill.94693/page-52#post-3234167
     
    Irishman and resnor like this.
  4. Mcduffie81

    Mcduffie81 Wildcat Club Member

    6,053
    5,608
    113
    Mar 23, 2008
    Lake Worth, Fl.
    You must have missed bbqpitlover’s post. There have been other comments in this thread too (I think it was this thread) that Tannehill isn’t getting it done in December.
     
    resnor likes this.
  5. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

    11,375
    11,392
    113
    Sep 28, 2015
    I disagree. This goes far beyond yesterday's game and has been a mark against Ryan since he came in the league. Processing speed and ability to "feel" pressure.

    Again, no QB is perfect but these have been knocks on him that I personally still see at times in TN.

    Hasnt hindered him to the point where he won't be getting a big fat contract in 2020 however.
     
  6. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

    11,375
    11,392
    113
    Sep 28, 2015
    Well that is just silly if you ask me. Ive watched every game he has played in and he has been solid even in the losses.
     
  7. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,329
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    Even in the Peyton/Brady "duels," it wasn't really Peyton vs Brady. Both QBs still needed their offensive players to make plays. I just find it lazy and irritating to reduce everything to the QBs.
     
  8. Mcduffie81

    Mcduffie81 Wildcat Club Member

    6,053
    5,608
    113
    Mar 23, 2008
    Lake Worth, Fl.
    All of this is silly. I wonder all the time why I even bother. But that’s the reason you asked for I believe.
     
  9. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

    2,474
    2,954
    113
    Dec 13, 2007
    We'll just have to agree to disagree on the pocket presence.

    I do agree about the processing speed. He is a bit mechanical about going through his reads and lacks the elite QB instincts of some to anticipate that he is going to need to improvise on the play when things break down.
     
    cuchulainn and PhinFan1968 like this.
  10. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    10,488
    12,821
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    Anyone who watched that last game saw that Tennessee walked all over Houston and lost because of that one dumb interception where the receiver fumbled the ball while crossing the plain of the endzone. They returned it 90 yards and caused a 14 point swing...they don't win without that incredible play (which was incredibly dumb by Tennessee's receiver).

    Resting players or not, Tennessee will win that game. I'll bet cBrad's car on it!
     
    cuchulainn and PhinFan1968 like this.
  11. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    Bottom line: If Rodgers (and he has), Wilson (has also), or Brees (3/3) put up those numbers Tannehill has in 2 losses, analysts would be lamenting how the defense let the team down. Those guys are called elite, Tannehill is called average after being run out of town for a 4th round draft pick.
     
  12. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    It's a good thing he's not also elite in that regard...his contract would cripple a team.
     
    resnor and KeyFin like this.
  13. Cashvillesent

    Cashvillesent A female Tannehill fan

    770
    641
    93
    Dec 8, 2019
    Ive seen some snaps out there where Tanny keeps the ball way longer then your suppose to.. but I personally dont see it an issue, just a guy waiting to hit the target. As long as there is no fumble caused or yards lost I am not concerned. Besides Tennessee has a pathetic history of developing WRs. We havent had a legit threat since Mason.
     
  14. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    10,488
    12,821
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    I noticed this season that he's moving A LOT more in the pocket and extending plays by rolling way out to his right. For instance, there was one play yesterday where he got flushed out and should have ran the ball....but he ended on the right hash about 15 yards behind the LOS. He did complete a crossing route pass on that one for a big gain and it was probably 5-6 seconds from snap to throw. One of this TD passes were exactly the same pattern....he just outran the rush and played outside the pocket until someone popped open.

    So I disagree with you- his pocket presence looks pretty darn good this year by abandoning the pocket entirely. It's more a Cam Newton type of look where the QB is always on the move and looking downfield...except that RT is a heck of a lot more accurate than Cam.
     
    resnor and Irishman like this.
  15. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    10,488
    12,821
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    "We"? So you're a Tennessee fan? That's pretty cool that someone ended up here rooting for another team. We almost need a Tennessee Titans sub-forum since so many of us here are also now huge Tenn fans (and several haters as well just to see RT fail).
     
    Mcduffie81 likes this.
  16. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

    2,474
    2,954
    113
    Dec 13, 2007
    I was the one claiming his pocket presence isn't bad.
     
    KeyFin likes this.
  17. The Guy

    The Guy Well-Known Member

    6,598
    3,323
    113
    Oct 1, 2018
    Some information compiled in 2017 regarding the drive-killing consequence of sacks in the NFL:
    http://settingedge.com/sackskilldrives
     
  18. Irishman

    Irishman Well-Known Member

    573
    532
    93
    Oct 16, 2017
    High Point, NC
    Cbrad,

    I admire your tolerance and willingness to give direct answers to those who want to bias the results to match their opinions.

    For the record, I am now and have always been a fan of Tannehill. I felt it was time for him to go when he was traded because of his non availability for over two years and what I can only speculate as a loss of trust in him by Adam Gase.

    I am delighted with his current run of success. He was a bright spot for me in a year when the Dolphins were "problematic".

    It seems that in the heat of the action, Dolphins fans get tied to players and playing concepts to the point that they are somewhat inflexible. In light of that, It might be useful if you established a "Stastics Overview for Sports Fans" during the off season that touches on the basics of probability & chance and explains why certain statistical methods are selected, based on what ever is trying to be identified. These seem to be two areas where many of the fans arguments get centered on.

    If you did this before the season started, it might make the need to re-introduce it every time un-necessary when an irate fan decides the stats don't match the apparent action.

    I've found it easier to learn stuff when I'm not trying to prove a point.
     
    cbrad likes this.
  19. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    10,488
    12,821
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    I was pointing out that he was anticipating to improvise on almost every play the past few weeks. If he stays in the pocket it's dicey without a quick release...but luckily he's not there much.
     
    Irishman likes this.
  20. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

    1,183
    1,484
    113
    Dec 11, 2016
    Doesn’t matter if the db lead witb the shoulder. If he hit him at the head or neck area at all witb that shoulder it’s a penalty.

    not to mention almost every time someone lays out like that after contact the yellow follows.
     
    cuchulainn and resnor like this.
  21. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

    2,474
    2,954
    113
    Dec 13, 2007
    None of that is surprising.
     
  22. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

    1,183
    1,484
    113
    Dec 11, 2016
    Hung in tbe pocket at times too long is an accurate assessment for that game from tannehill. Just throw it in the 3rd row. I think some of it is his never give up on a play mindset.

    the other part is a lack of feel for pressure or when he has to drop his eye level and get out of dodge. It’s just a tick late but when it is it’s too late.

    processing the field stuff doesn’t add up for me. Looks like he goes thru his progressions fine to me.
     
    PhinFan1968 likes this.
  23. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

    1,183
    1,484
    113
    Dec 11, 2016
    separates him from being truly elite. Just hasn’t developed at the clip where it would be expected. Muscle memory or what he was always gonna be? Hard to say
     
  24. cbrad

    cbrad .

    10,659
    12,657
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    Yeah good idea. I’ll do that once the season is over (after the SB). Then we can talk about statistical methodology without it being tied to a specific player/team.
     
    Irishman likes this.
  25. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

    11,817
    10,321
    113
    Nov 24, 2007
    Rockledge, FL
    Better to take a sack than to push a bad pass
     
    resnor and Irishman like this.
  26. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

    1,183
    1,484
    113
    Dec 11, 2016

    No doubt. But there’s times where you can’t take sacks situationally. And Ryan’s got a penchant for those
     
  27. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

    2,474
    2,954
    113
    Dec 13, 2007
    He cannot throw it away unless he is outside the tackle box. That is intentional grounding. The Saints pass rushers did a great job of collapsing the pocket without opening a big lane for him to escape forward. Escaping backwards was the only choice and that opens up the possibility of a much bigger sack. Three of the sacks were for 0, 2, and 3 yards. The two long sacks had no chance for escape.
     
    Irishman likes this.
  28. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

    2,474
    2,954
    113
    Dec 13, 2007
    IMO, his OL had a penchant for failing miserably. Take the 3rd and 1 sack yesterday. Lewan got RUN OVER and the RT whiffed. Tannehill had no chance in a situation that the could not afford a sack.
     
    Cashvillesent and Irishman like this.
  29. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

    1,183
    1,484
    113
    Dec 11, 2016
    Throws it at or past the los from the pocket towards a receiving option and he’s just fine. Not a penalty. If he can’t find his dump throw it down the boundary line past the los and odds of getting that called are nil provided someone’s in the zip code.
     
    Irishman likes this.
  30. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

    1,183
    1,484
    113
    Dec 11, 2016
    I wasn’t counting that one. That’s Lewan all day long.

    but he also got bailed out on some sacks where the d committed penalties. Called that if he doesn’t get situationally are bad sacks.

    throw the damn thing in the 3rd row and live for the next play.
     
  31. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

    2,474
    2,954
    113
    Dec 13, 2007
    So it is a judgement call between taking a 2 yard sack and risking an intentional grounding. One of of the sacks yesterday, he was about to throw it towards the back in the flat but he didn't have the room to make a throw without risking a fumble. He had several fumbles this season in the situation of trying to make a throw from a phone booth. This is the play I'm talking about:

    sack5.png

    Instead, of risking the fumble he steps up and gets sack for a small loss. IMO, there is nothing wrong with that decision.
     
  32. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

    2,474
    2,954
    113
    Dec 13, 2007
    To follow up on the fumbling thing. He had 6 fumbles in his first 6 starts, including lost fumbles in 3 consecutive games. He has zero fumbles since. There is no doubt in my mind that he is making a conscious decision to avoid fumbles and INTs, even if it results in an extra sack or two a game.
     
  33. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

    11,817
    10,321
    113
    Nov 24, 2007
    Rockledge, FL
    And yet he’s currently the BEST quarterback in the league. Go figure
     
    Irishman and resnor like this.
  34. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

    2,474
    2,954
    113
    Dec 13, 2007
    I don't think he is the best in the league. Highest passer rating but not the best QB.
     
    resnor likes this.
  35. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

    11,817
    10,321
    113
    Nov 24, 2007
    Rockledge, FL
    Oh I jumped on the Tennessee bandwagon the instant Tannehill started. Not like there was really anything to root for in Miami this season
     
    Irishman, resnor and KeyFin like this.
  36. The Guy

    The Guy Well-Known Member

    6,598
    3,323
    113
    Oct 1, 2018
    I didn't say that what you pointed out couldn't account for the difference in yesterday's game. I said I suspect a single turnover couldn't account for the normal difference in scoring in a game in which one team has a passer rating around 133 and the other team has a passer rating around 118.

    And here are the data for such games since 2004, where one team's passer rating was between 130 and 136, and the other's between 115 and 121, followed by the winning team's turnover margin (yesterday's turnover margin was Tennessee -1):

    W 31-21; 1
    L 39-42; 1
    W 42-34; 1
    W 27-21; 0
    W 35-28; -1
    W 34-31; -1
    W 37-21; -2

    So the average margin of victory there for the teams with passer ratings between 130 and 136 is 6.7 points, and there is nothing significant to be said about turnover margin in those games. Again Tennessee lost yesterday by 10, which is highly inconsistent with the above data.

    So let's take a closer look at sacks in yesterday's game, as a possible explanation for the above.

    Yesterday New Orleans had 13 offensive possessions (not counting the one where they received a punt with 18 seconds left before the half), and Tennessee also had 13 offensive possessions. So New Orleans's number of points per possession was 2.92, while Tennessee's was 1.62.

    Tennessee had 4 of its 13 drives killed by sacks, where a sack during a drive did not result in another first down or any points on the drive.

    New Orleans had 2 of its 13 drives similarly killed by sacks.

    So New Orleans, by virtue of being sacked fewer times, had two more opportunities to extend drives and score in the game.

    Now, I don't harbor any illusions that we're going to get people to agree here on who is at fault for Tennessee's sacks, so just realize that the difference in the game could've very well been the more limited scoring opportunities Tennessee had, by virtue of its quarterback's being sacked more.

    This is something to watch going forward, because sacks of course do not contribute to traditional passing statistics, yet they can certainly contribute to wins and losses by limiting a team's scoring opportunities (note the data in the earlier post about the drive-killing function of sacks).
     
  37. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

    11,817
    10,321
    113
    Nov 24, 2007
    Rockledge, FL
    I think some of those other quarterbacks everyone seems to jump on their jock straps for would say differently
     
    Irishman, resnor and KeyFin like this.
  38. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

    1,183
    1,484
    113
    Dec 11, 2016
    you know I can’t tell anything on stills.

    but just to make sure people understand when I say 3rd row I don’t mean literally 3rd row. I mean outside the boundary to the sideline past the los. In the bench area in other words. The 3rd row is rarely something to throw to unless outside the tackle box between the 20s. It’s more a tight red primary taken away post snap vs immediate/quick pressure get out of jail free card. 3rd row of the end zone
     
  39. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

    2,474
    2,954
    113
    Dec 13, 2007
    Why do you insist on this nonsensical type of argument? We were talking about YESTERDAY'S GAME.

    Why do you want to review weather forecasts from the past 15 years to discuss whether it rained yesterday??????
     
    Irishman, resnor and KeyFin like this.
  40. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

    2,474
    2,954
    113
    Dec 13, 2007
    There is a highlight video of just NO's sacks on NFL.com.
     

Share This Page