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Are we debating the wrong QB?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by tirty8, Jan 4, 2020.

  1. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    Over the course of the year, we have been on Tua watch. Today, I went on a run and sorta just did a mental reset of the Dolphins' QB situation. I sorta remember a point Colin Cowherd made on his radio show one time. His thesis essentially was, "I may believe something today, but when things change, so does my opinion." He used the analogy that he may believe in a stock so much that he would buy it, but if he found out the CFO was investigated for fraud, he would sell the stock immediately because the facts have vastly changed.

    I truly feel that the facts have drastically changed with Tua. His body is seriously in question. Will he be able to use his lower body to drive balls down field like he once did. What is his mobility like? His injury was not his first. Is he injury prone? It is quite conceivable that the guy we are evaluating no longer exists. Hope is not an evaluation tool.

    Just Herbert is far more of a known commodity. Prior to taking an in-depth look, I was not a Herbert fan. He played in the PAC which is far from a defensive juggernaut, and he really couldn't lift a team to the playoffs. Prior to Rose Bowl, he never had a signature win. For all intents and purposes Oregon underachieved during his tenure. It is absolutely fair to ask, "If he could lift a college team, how could he lift a pro team?" I think that criticism is both fair and warranted.

    Why should we talk about him then? Just look at him. He is exactly what a QB should look like. Undoubtedly, he does bring ELITE arm talent. When thinking about a drafting a player, elite attributes are important. You cannot teach/coach arm talent. Herbert is gunslinger and at times throws questionable balls and has inconsistent accuracy. That being said, he is significantly farther along developmentally than Josh Allen was when coming out of college. With Herbert, we have to be wondering, "With coaching and significant upgrades at WR, how much better could Herbert be?" With Tua, you have to ask yourself if his best football was behind him? Will his athleticism ever return? That being said, Herbert has big man athleticism. The man may not have top end speed like Lamar Jackson, but he can take a hit and keep trucking like Cam Newton. He is strong as an ox, and is difficult to bring down similar to Big Ben.

    Perhaps, this is the guy that should be the center of our attention and debates.
     
  2. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    I would say Herbert or Hurts, much later for Hurts though, are the options I'd be looking at.

    I'll support Tua as well if the team believes in his health enough to take him.
     
  3. Striking

    Striking Junior Member

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    Many baseball scouts died an early death because of "he looks like a baseball player".
     
    Fin D likes this.
  4. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    I read other team forums to see what their fans are saying about the pick and I swear, im not kidding you when I say Dolphins fans are the most infatuated by Tua and its not even remotely close, probably because we got some guy on twitter having wet dreams about Tua and his cult following repeats his thoughts. Every other fanbase are saying stay away, hes a china doll, made of glass, with just a handful of each chargers, lions and other team fans that need a quarterback saying theyll take the risk.

    here’s what was being said in the Citrus Bowl by the announcers who are very close to the situation in Alabama, and what is coming out of Bama radio and news outlets are saying: Tua is getting advice from everywhere that his stock is low due to his injury, and the likelihood of him returning to Alabama is high.

    He’s been told that if he declares, he is going to rely on one team to draft him - the dolphins, and if we pass on him at 5, hes taking a chance to fall to 18 or much lower, a Brady Quinn dive or worse.
     
    mlb1399 and resnor like this.
  5. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    I have felt these sentiments too. In fact, I ask myself, "Are my eyes deceiving me?"

    Here is my rebuttal. I have seen him do great things (at times) on the football field. I have seen him regularly make big-time football throws. He is absolutely not Kyle Boller who wowed scouts by throwing footballs through the goal posts from his knees from the 50 yard line. There is more to this puzzle than physical appearance.
     
  6. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    delaware
    Doesn't seem to have any leadership qualities.Very introverted for my taste
     
  7. Striking

    Striking Junior Member

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    I'm no expert. The little I have seen did not impress me.
     
  8. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Are you kidding me? Herbert? Hurts? They both got their butts WHIPPED in the big games, where the competition is stiffer and they folded like a cheap suit. Why in God's name would you want that?
     
  9. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    He is. It is problematic. The guy with elite leadership has a bum hip.

    I don't think that you are gonna find "the perfect guy." What warts can you deal with, and what warts can't you deal with?

    Legit question - Is his personality a non-starter?
     
  10. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    This is essentially the argument for looking at Herbert in the first place. The reason for moving on from Herbert is that despite all of the prototypical stuff he's severely flawed elsewhere. His decision making is one of those areas.

    Could the right coach turn him around? Maybe. And I'm no talent scout so I probably no nothing. To my eye, though, there's a lot to dislike and over the course of the season nothing has really improved. So I wouldn't pick him.

    Have you tried looking in the NFL Draft forum? There are threads there on Tua and Herbert and other QBs and some recent news.
     
  11. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    This makes no sense since you're literally the one who says we dont need a great QB and that the team around them being built right will lead to success.

    Sometimes I think you contradict your own opinions just to disagree with me...
     
  12. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    The media has been selling us tank for Tua since early in the season. I wonder how much of it is that vs people watched him play and thought he looks legit.

    Back to the OP, I’d be ok with Herbert or Hurts later in the first round, not #5. I’d say draft BPA at a need position: OL, DL, S and then use our 2nd on a QB. Assuming Flores and Gailey don’t believe Rosen is salvageable.

    I’d also be ok with riding the Fitzmagic train for another year or two, developing Rosen and drafting other positions.
     
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  13. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    The only complaint i'm going to have is if WE DONT draft a quarterback. We have to draft one! Must draft one! And it should be with one of our first round picks. That is all i'm saying. It doesn't necessarily have to be Tua or Herbert or Fromm, it just has to be one of them. I love Ryan Fitzpatrick, but I refuse to drink the kool aid. I don't think he's Rich Gannon 2.0. I think he's Ryan Fitzpatrick and i'm absolutely fine with that, but we need to draft some hope at the position. Same goes for Josh Rosen, I don't like him, I don't think he's going to amount to anything other than a career backup in this league (maybe i'm wrong), but we simply can't go into next season with just those two as our guys.
     
  14. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    What??? Dude, stop sniffing glue. I’ve NEVER said such a thing. What I’ve said time and time again is that great quarterbacks are great because of great surroundings ie; the team that surrounds them.

    Folks like you sing a version of the Beatles, “All You need is a great quarterback”. Great quarterbacks go only so far without a great team around them, ask Marino.

    Back to THIS topic, Herbert is straight garbage. Hurts is straight garbage. Both heralded during the season as potential first round draft picks playing against inferior competition throughout the season and when they play in a bowl game with stout competition , they didn’t perform.

    If they can’t perform as advertised during a bowl game what makes you think they’re going to perform against far superior competition in the NFL?
     
  15. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    You basically just said exactly what I said you did. I'm not sure how you cant see that.

    Also you entirely misrepresented my outlook and what I've said previously.

    Just to be clear my opinion is that a more talented QB has a higher floor than a less talented one regardless of team.

    They also have a higher ceiling with a great team.

    So my opinion is to get the best QB possible AND build a team around them. Not that a QB means instant victories, no-one here has really said that but you keep accusing us of it.

    Also just for the record, I could care less how any of these QB perform in an individual Bowl Game. You dont scout based off of one game, you scout based on a players capabilities, potential and entire body of work.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2020
  16. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    Tua decision live shortly, links in the thread in the Draft forum.
     

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