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Ryan Tannehill

Discussion in 'Other NFL' started by bbqpitlover, Oct 16, 2019.

Ryan Tannehill is...

  1. A terrible QB

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. A below average QB

    4 vote(s)
    5.7%
  3. An average QB

    7 vote(s)
    10.0%
  4. An above average QB

    39 vote(s)
    55.7%
  5. An elite QB

    16 vote(s)
    22.9%
  6. The GOAT.

    4 vote(s)
    5.7%
  1. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Yeah so I double checked the stats, and except for the issue we identified long ago with you using Excel and me using Matlab those are basically correct. I'm getting an average 2018-adjusted rating of 105.3 for the winner and 84.8 for the loser with standard deviations of 24.67 for the winner and 26.54 for the loser. Result of the t-test is a p-value of 0.000000067.

    However, the result isn't surprising. Basically it's just confirming that QB's (in the playoffs or regular season) tend to have higher passer ratings when they win than when they lose lol, and that the difference is "real" and not consistent with the hypothesis that there is actually no real difference and that the difference you're observing is due to "random variation".

    So the hypothesis test is concluding the obvious. What's useful however is knowing the actual distribution of adjusted ratings so that you can calculate the historical probability of winning in the playoffs given any rating.
     
    The Guy likes this.
  2. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    With what Miami had offensively? Yea, he would have done about the same, maybe a bit better than Fitzpatrick.
     
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  3. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    Not unless he was coached and adapted to play differently than he does. You'd have to convince him to either jump off script on every play or just chuck it up for grabs. He isn't naturally inclined to do either.

    Now the reverse question, could Fitz go as far with the Tennessee offense, including putting up the highest passer rating, leading the league in accuracy, etc, etc.

    So, I concede, if you want a QB to lead a crap team to 5 wins, Fitz is your man. If you want to assemble a credible team and put it in the hands of a QB that is capable of challenging a defense all over the field with elite arm talent, then Tannehill is your guy.
     
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  4. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    I dont think our offense is necessarily built to maximize his strengths.

    I dont think it's necessarily that Fitz does better with a crap team, but more where the talent on that crap team is and the philosophy.
     
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  5. Mcduffie81

    Mcduffie81 Wildcat Club Member

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    You’ve always knocked Tannehill for not using his athleticism the same way some other QBs do. I don’t believe a QB has to do that to be successful.

    And you asked why I thought I believe you fall in love with mobile QBs. So I just listed a bunch of reasons why I believe that.

    Those are all QBs that you’ve had a crush on at one time or another. And you propped them up while we had Tannehill (or after in Fitz’s case), while disregarding Tannehill as a waste of time.

    So it was on topic.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2020
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  6. Mcduffie81

    Mcduffie81 Wildcat Club Member

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    Hey, let’s not act like I have some kind of personality flaw because I brought it up. It sucks but the Mariota thing isn’t going to die. I’m not saying I’m going to continue to throw it around. You like to toss out things like “put your money where your mouth is” or “at least I stick my neck out and make my evals”. So no doubt people are going to call you out on it.

    But in this case I brought it up because it’s a DIRECT example or comparison of someone you loved and fawned over, to Tannehill who is someone you disregarded as not good enough.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2020
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  7. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I vehemently disagree with DJ about Tannehill and always have.

    Having said that, his record is better than most other people's on here.
     
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  8. Mcduffie81

    Mcduffie81 Wildcat Club Member

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    I don’t believe it’s unfair to questions people’s evaluations or past record of doing so. Especially if they take themselves very seriously as an evaluator. Lucky for me I don’t make many proclamations.

    (The players I can remember proclaiming I liked are Haskins, Derrick Henry and Devante Parker.)
     
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  9. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    You're not doing that really though.

    You are harping on one of the few misses and ignoring the many more hits.

    Deej has a type when it comes to QBs. But he's called numerous guys from Wilson, to Mahomes, to Watson, to CKap, etc.
     
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  10. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    I liked Vince Young back in the day I cant talk haha

    I loved Parker though, I thought Tannehill had at least a good chance to succeed.

    I was wrong about Wilson not making it. Hes become a top QB in the league.

    I will say I wanted us to take Rodgers when he was in the draft. That might have ended up nice.
     
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  11. Mcduffie81

    Mcduffie81 Wildcat Club Member

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    I’m not harping. I brought it up once to make a relative point in a Tannehill thread.

    I know DJ has a type. That was part of my point.
     
  12. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Harping wasn't a fair word to use on my part.

    But my issue is, was is the Mariota miss more significant than all the hits relative to this discussion?
     
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  13. Mcduffie81

    Mcduffie81 Wildcat Club Member

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    In this thread, hell yeah!!! Lol
     
  14. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Can I take that as an admission that you understand you aren't being really fair, but are just trying to win an argument?
     
  15. The Guy

    The Guy Well-Known Member

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    Thanks cbrad -- appreciate the feedback as always. I thought the t-test might be necessary as a way of determining that the "winning" (versus the losing) distribution should be used to determine the probabilities of winning associated with various passer ratings, given that there is overlap between the winning and losing distributions. Is that accurate, or does it matter?

    At any rate, what we've apparently found here is that a team doesn't get a 50% or better chance of winning from its passer rating in the playoffs unless it gets one of at least 105.3 (103.7 if the team is using Excel :smile:). That's a pretty staggering number at first glance in my opinion.

    I'll do some research to determine how likely quarterbacks with various abilities are to produce a passer rating that high in the playoffs.
     
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  16. Mcduffie81

    Mcduffie81 Wildcat Club Member

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    I explained why I think it’s fair and relative.
     
  17. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    You are completely ignoring the margin of victory. If a QB has a passer rating of 110 in a game that his team won by 35 points, he didn't "need" a passer rating of 110 to get the win. In addition, you have a chick and egg situation. Does the passer rating lead to the win or does playing with a lead (or conversely playing from behind) affect the passer rating. I propose that it sometimes one, sometimes the other, and sometimes both. Once again, you are using much too simplistic of an analysis. Just shows a lack of sophistication in both your understanding of stats and the game.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2020
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  18. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    There isn't a single way of determining the relation between win probability and passer rating. Each approach answers a different question.

    If you want to know what the probability that a winning QB had passer rating X then you do what you just did: you look at the distribution of passer ratings for all wins and calculate based on that. There the t-test doesn't matter because you're conditioning on winning so you HAVE to use just the distribution of passer ratings when the QB was on the winning team.

    If however you want to know the probability of winning GIVEN a certain passer rating in a single game, you need to do logistic regression. So on the x-axis is passer rating and y-axis goes from 0 to 1: every passer rating for a loss gets a 0 while every passer rating for a win gets a 1, and you fit a logistic function to it.

    If however you want to know the probability of winning GIVEN a certain passer rating over multiple games (e.g., season ending passer rating), then you do linear regression with passer rating on the x-axis and win probability on the y-axis. That graph I already provided.

    So for the probability of winning GIVEN a passer rating you always use both winning and losing distributions. It's only if you condition on winning or condition on losing that you use one or the other regardless of t-test. So the proper interpretation of the stats you have from the winning distribution is to say that IF the QB was on the winning team X% of the time the passer rating was at least Y, etc... But you can't say a passer rating of Y means the probability of winning is X% from that.
     
  19. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    I predict that he will still make the claim (perhaps reworded in some way), especially if the Titans manage to beat the Ravens. He NEEDS to try to diminish Tannehill's accomplishments.
     
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  20. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Hmm, with 0 run game, and the worst oline in football??

    I don’t believe that to be true..and I don’t think that’s bashing the player either.. Ryan had better talent on offense during his tenure dont ya think? Not better coaching but can we say better talent?

    Maybe the question being answered is, Ryan can play better if he has a dominant run game and good protection, but not so much if he doesn’t?

    Is that fair?
     
  21. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Thank you for your honest answer, I think that’s a pretty interesting study no?
     
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  22. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I would think it’s also fair to see with a better run game and much better protection Fitz’s numbers would improve.. not reach Tannehill numbers because Ryan does have innate accuracy, but better across the board..
     
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  23. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The bottom line is the record overall, so whoever I fall in love with, love being put into the context Relative to draft status and where they got picked, if they become successful or if I project unsuccessful, athleticism is just a trait to analyze.

    My love for wilson, Mahomes, Murray, Mahomes, Watson, is different then my interest in Taylor going that late that year, Or Kaepernick and Kyler Murray being called a bust predraft, it’s all relative..

    So no I don’t agree that I look into athleticism too much in a Qb, I look into who can get it done at a high level... some you miss on obviously but overall is how one should be judged..
     
  24. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Flip side, Henry wasn't dominating like this with Mariota...
     
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  25. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this.
     
  26. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Folks forget about bust predications, they just wanna highlight a miss for whatever reason, only you know that..

    What about Ponder, Geno Smith, Russell, Locker, Claussen..

    Ryan Has proven me wring up until one last point, and that point is trusting that he can play at a high level on the road, and make those individual plays I think every Qb has to make on their way to a champ.. I saw some good throws last week, especially the conversion, but overall I thought he and that team was carried and won by one dominate running back..
     
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  27. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Parker, was incredibly high on him, Henry did not talk crap about, Haskins, not a bust, solid first round grade, but not in the category of a prospects like Mahomes, Wilson, Watson..
     
  28. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    Ryan Tannehill's numbers in 2013 (as a 2nd year QB with far worse skill position players, a more poorly coached team, and an OL that gave up 58 sacks): 60% completion, 245 yards per game, 24 TDs, 17 INTs, 81.7 passer rating. 8-8 record.

    Ryan Fitzpatrick's numbers in 2019 - 62% completion, 235 yards per game, 20 TDs, 13 INTs, 85.5 passer rating. 5-8 record.

    I think you are splitting hairs here. In addition, this is a comparison of a 2nd year QB (that was supposed to sit a year) and a 15 year veteran. Finally, I'd take the 2019 Dolphin receivers over the 2013 receivers all day.
     
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  29. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    By design.
     
  30. The Guy

    The Guy Well-Known Member

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    Appreciate all that. What I'm interested in specifically is the passer rating needed to give a team at least a 50% probability of winning in the playoffs. Would that involve logistic regression?
     
  31. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I’m rooting for Ryan like I said a million times, I think he deserves success for what he put up with here..I just want him to do what I always though he should do, and that is to establish his legs early in the game and beat the opponent with his entire skill set, now some folks can say he’s a progression read QB, that’s not how he plays the game, but I say, do whatever it takes to win, I know he has it in his repetoire, so show me you get that when the situation calls for it.. don’t just rely on the progression bringing you an open man..
     
  32. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    and it worked this time..
     
  33. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    And at least one person (not you) wants to "blame" Tannehill for it.
     
  34. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    .

    The only time I talk like that is when someone is talking ****

    I took a lot of **** when I said Murray and Wilson and Mahomes would become superstars in this league, all three had heavy backlash..sometime when sh## gets to heavy and out of hand, you have to stand up and meet the challenge.

    You can keep harping on it like you say, if it makes you feel good, do you.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2020
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  35. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    If he can develop that part of his game to be more consistent, he'd be a perennial top 5-6 QB. His athletic ability combined with his arm talent and intelligence would be incredibly difficult to defend. I don't think he will ever have the escapability of guys like Wilson, Watson, and Jackson, or even Aaron Rodgers. He is just a different kind of athlete. Not nearly as agile but he has good straight line speed and can threaten a defense with his legs.
     
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  36. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Jeff Fisher. :censored:

    Vince showed some flashes, but Fisher never wanted him (I believe the owners forced the issue) and pretty much killed his career.
     
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  37. The Guy

    The Guy Well-Known Member

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    @cbrad

    If so, here are the results:

    Model Summary
    ╔══════╤═════════════════╤════════════════════╤═══════════════════╗
    ║Step 1│-2 Log likelihood│Cox & Snell R Square│Nagelkerke R Square║
    ╠══════╪═════════════════╪════════════════════╪═══════════════════╣
    ║ │ 242.14│ .15│ .20║
    ╚══════╧═════════════════╧════════════════════╧═══════════════════╝

    Variables in the Equation
    ╔══════╦════════╤═════╤════╤═════╤══╤════╤══════╗
    ║ ║ │ B │S.E.│ Wald│df│Sig.│Exp(B)║
    ╠══════╬════════╪═════╪════╪═════╪══╪════╪══════╣
    ║Step 1║Rate │ .04│ .01│25.45│ 1│.000│ 1.04║
    ║ ║Constant│-3.18│ .65│23.78│ 1│.000│ .04║
    ╚══════╩════════╧═════╧════╧═════╧══╧════╧══════╝

    The variable entitled "Rate" is passer rating.
     
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  38. Mcduffie81

    Mcduffie81 Wildcat Club Member

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    And you can keep ignoring the fact that I’m not harping in it.
     
  39. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    That and the league didnt have a plan for Mobile QB yet, coupled with the fact Fischer wasnt innovative enough.

    They didnt use his athleticism to set things up. It was drop back, if it isnt there run.

    I dont want to bring in debates about Vick as a person, but I find what he did with his legs more impressive than Jackson (just talking legs, not arm or other skills) because the way he got his yards wasnt designed but mostly running for his life.

    Probably the closest thing to Barry Sanders style I've ever seen.
     
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  40. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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