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Dolphins Draft Strategy - They Will Move Up... for a QB

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, Jan 6, 2020.

  1. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    I’m not saying Burrow isn’t going to succeed in the NFL. The kid’s a beast at QB. I’m just pointing out the HISTORY.

    I’m not he’s GOING to succeed either. The Bengals are a dumpster fire of an organization at the moment and I’m afraid Burrow’s going to have a severe baptism by fire with that team and in that division.

    I really hope a Heisman winning WB can actually break the drought of Super Bowl winning QBs
     
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  2. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    What you’re talking about is some mythical curse with the Heisman trophy.. people like him because of his skills and ability..

    i think Joe Burrow has the IT factor to be a great quarterback. Im not trading the farm for him though. He gets bailed out a lot by his receivers.. it will be interesting to see how he does next season with Aj Green John Ross and Joe Mixon. If they can find him a tight end, build that line... then he will be picking up where he left off in LSU.
     
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  3. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    This.

    Bottom line is if he came in 2nd for the Heisman this year he would still fundamentally be the same player.

    Also most QB coming into the league fail. You can put together a list of almost any college award or achievement and find most didnt succeed in the NFL.

    Why? Because more players fail period.
     
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  4. Patster1969

    Patster1969 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Doesn't have the arm and I haven't seen any evidence that he can make the throws that Rodgers can. Not saying that he isn't good but as someone has said already, he is helped by his team and he's only had 1 year of production at college level. Hopefully he doesn't get ruined by Zac Taylor
     
  5. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    He can throw pinpoint accurate while scrambling, can find the open man while under intense pressure, almost never gets flustered. He may not have the strongest arm of all the QBs coming out, but it's plenty strong enough for the NFL.
     
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  6. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Burrow processes a play as fast as any QB I have seen. He can make every throw in the middle of the field and he made quite a few throws to the sidelines in Monday's game. His only knock is arm strength and doing it only one year but his arm strength is good enough
     
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  7. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    Like I said before, his arm strength has improved every year and should continue to do so for a few more years.

    He entered college with incredibly under developed arm strength. His Freshman year his coaches told him he "Throws like a girl"

    It's a big reason why he isnt one of those guys that had a great 3-4 year career. He had to work to get where he is now, relying on his other skills until the package was complete.

    Does that mean he will succeed? Nope, but I think it's a fair answer to some of the criticisms people have about him.
     
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  8. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    https://primetimesportstalk.com/202...ing-to-aquire-no-1-pick-to-select-joe-burrow/



    True this early? Maybe not. But what do you think of the concept - would you pay this price for Burrow?


    Cincinnati Bengals would receive:

    • 2020 first-round pick (fifth overall)
    • 2020 first-round pick (18th overall)
    • 2020 second-round pick (39th overall)
    • 2021 first-round pick
    • 2021 third-round pick
    Miami Dolphins would receive:

    • 2020 first-round pick (first overall)
     
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  9. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    Yes. I would pay that.
     
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  10. Deus ex dolphin

    Deus ex dolphin Well-Known Member

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    I'd have to think about it. Burrow for a fortune in draft picks OR Tua at #5 and all those other picks to build the team? If I knew for sure that Tua was going to be healthy, it would be an easier decision. IF Burrow becomes a real franchise QB, the cost to move up is worth it.

    Any chance we can add Rosen into the trade package? In place of that 2021 third rounder? In fact, I'll add Howard to the package and our 2021 second rounder to keep our 2021 first rounder.
     
  11. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Rosen has 0 trade value, Howard (assuming X) has little what with the injury and huge salary.

    If you feel that Burrow is the only franchise worthy QB, it's a fair price, though I wouldn't tough it if I were Cincinnati. If you think Tua is comparable, then it's a huge overpay. This feels a bit smokey though - Grier saying "look at us, we aren't in love with Tua, we are trying to get Joe" etc.
     
  12. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I am a huge Burrow fan but I'm pretty sure I hate this idea. Three 1sts, a 2nd and a 3rd to move up 4 spots? That's a massive gamble and I would personally pass. I'm just super conservative when it comes to picks and rebuilding.

    At the same time though, I don't think I'd ultimately be upset if Miami pulled the trigger...Burrow is one of the most complete prospects I've seen in a very long time. I think his game will translate to the NFL and he could be a 15 year starter.
     
  13. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    This is why I said winning was silly with a roster that needs to be entirely turned over.

    Instead of having the #1 pick along with every other pick we acquired, instead we are potentially looking to give up all those other picks we traded for in order to get that same #1 pick.

    We made our bed when we won our games. It's time to sleep in it unless you can get away with only losing one first rounder.

    A trade like this would show how incredibly inept and pathetic we are as a franchise and would make us a laughing stock.

    It doesnt even have to do with whether Burrow succeeds. The fact we used more to do less is sad.
     
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  14. Patster1969

    Patster1969 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    So everyone that was disgusted that we were trading assets to potentially lose for the number 1 pick because "Wilson/Brady/Mahomes/etc were not drafted number 1" are now happy that we potentially trade 5 premium picks to move up 4 spaces to 1 when this is a team rebuild? Wow, no thanks
     
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  15. Hooligan

    Hooligan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This is an even sillier idea than taking Tua at #5. Grier would deserve to get fired. I understand everyone's desire to be in the play-offs next season but, this is not how to rebuild a gutted team and I don't want to look like the Redskins for the next decade.
     
  16. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    It's really only 2 firsts, because we're getting a 1st back.

    It is worth it if Burrow ends up a stud and is your franchise QB for 15 years.
     
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  17. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    My aversion isnt to Burrow himself. It's that we could have had Burrow plus the additional picks if we really wanted them.

    Instead we have decided that the wins were more important than the picks, which I think is silly.

    The trade itself could turn out fine if we did it but I'd still consider it something we did to hinder ourselves.
     
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  18. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    You can't ask a coach and players to intentionally lose and go 0-16. That's just an unrealistic "fantasy" scenario. Having Flores show the potential of being an excellent coach is worth four draft spots anyway.

    If Grier and Flores feel strongly enough to put their careers on the line like this, then more power to them. Make no mistake, giving up a boatload of picks like that is a career defining move. Either it works great and Burrow leads us to dominance over the AFC East and regular title contention, or it's a failure and Burrow is middling to bad over a 4-5 year span with Grier and Flores gone by year 3-4 of the Burrow era.

    I'd still say this is likely smoke and due diligence rather than serious discussions. Either the Bengals feel as strongly about another QB as they do Burrow, in which case, why don't we? Or they just aren't sold on Burrow, in which case, why are we? You don't pass on an elite potential QB for mid/late rounders if you need a QB. If the Bengals make that trade and Burrow immediately leads us to the playoffs, how does any Bengals fan not revolt immediately?
     
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  19. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    That's if it is coming from them. Ross might feel the need to step in and make a decision. This is a turning point for the team. The Pats are starting to fade, the Bills have stepped up but still aren't dominant. The time is right to try to make the leap.
     
  20. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    Being realistic, all we had to do was not start Fitz because we got the exact win count the majority if us predicted if he started.

    Basically as much as I love Fitz, I consider his signing to be a potential mistake. I'd personally have been much happier starting Rosen even if he bombed horribly.

    Of course when we signed Fitz we didnt have Rosen.

    At the end if the day, to me there is no way to justify giving up a ransom you absolutely didnt have to. Its poor vision for the future.
     
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  21. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    I won't dispute that last statement - it's a huge risk. However, I just don't think there is any way to force a coach to intentionally lose. If Grier came down to Flores' office and said "you aren't sucking bad enough, bench Fitz" and got any other response other than "F you man" then we hired the wrong guy. Again, the idea of an organizationally wide tank in the NFL just is not feasible and is a fan construct. I understand the academic disappointment behind the struggles of the offseason and start to the season not leading to a #1 overall, but I would still rather be us than any of the teams ahead of us.
     
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  22. Deus ex dolphin

    Deus ex dolphin Well-Known Member

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    Once we beat the Jests, if I was Ross, I'd have demanded that Rosen start the rest of the way to 'see if he is the future at QB'. I'd have started Fitzmagic at the end to try and mess over the Pats too -IF the #1 pick was secured.

    On the other hand, the team grew to believe in Flores and we saw a lot from Preston Williams. Parker saved his entire NFL career (or at least his career in Miami) thanks to Fitz building up his confidence with all those contested catches. Parker is probably a bust playing most of the season with Rosen. So we actually SAVED a draft pick need by having Fitz play most of the season.

    Whether Burrow, Tua, or someone else, as long as Miami can get a QB of the future I'll be thrilled.
     
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  23. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    Like I said I'm not necessarily advocating losing on purpose.

    It's not as cut and dry as that to me. You can also say we spent a 2nd round pick on Rosen and he needs to be given a chance to play, at least at some point.

    We didnt need to go 0-16 necessarily, a loss to the Bengals gives them another win for instance.

    I'm not necessarily arguing the logistics of losing, just that its painful to give up a lot of value you didnt necessarily have to.

    We could have drafted Burrow and used those picks to surround him with talent. Instead, if we made this trade it's just Burriw.

    Dont get me wrong, I'd take Burrow but getting him on such poor value would stink.
     
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  24. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    How weird for Etienne and Najee Harris to play in their senior season... i know Saban gave Najee the Heisman talk.. Alabama plans on running the ball more next season and be less reliant on their pass..

    But they were both first round picks IMO..
     
  25. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    I feel Burrow we be the next Joe Montana.
    If the offer is on the table take it.Never seen a college kid with such poise in big game after big game like this kid.
     
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  26. Patster1969

    Patster1969 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Wins are not silly, the right thing to do is always play to win and then take the cards as they are dealt - that is how successful teams do it. This is exactly what we haven't done for 20 years. Instead we have had no plan but instead gone for the shiny toy, which has got us precisely nowhere
     
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  27. Patster1969

    Patster1969 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    By not starting Fitz, we would not have been able to evaluate the entire offense. Instead, we would have been nowhere close to seeing what we had, particularly in Parker and Gesicki. Also, if we had started Rosen and it been a dumpster fire, the majority of the fanbase would have been calling for Flores' head plus Rosen would likely have been destroyed, physically and mentally
     
  28. Patster1969

    Patster1969 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    But what is the point of starting someone who clearly isn't ready to lead the team. He may well have needed the year to get his head round it, particularly as he was chucked into a worse situation as a rookie - at least the Dolphins got better by the end of the season, you cannot say the same about the 2018 Cardinals. With a season sitting behind and learning from Fitz, you may well see a completely different Josh Rosen (also, isn't he younger than Burrow?)
     
  29. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    That's why I really like him as well (besides the physical and mental attributes)- they ended up beating 7 out of the top 10 teams this season and the only time I saw him rattled at all was early in the 3rd quarter versus Clemson (which is understandable since he got leveled). His pocket presence is fantastic and I absolutely love his instincts; he's so decisive out there and literally doesn't miss a beat. Folks have said he doesn't have the strongest arm and I do agree, but he can make every throw accurately and seems to have excellent vision.

    I'll be honest- I haven't watched a ton of college ball before this season so I can't make fair comparisons to Mahomes, Jackson, etc. when they were in college. Joe Burrow is probably the best all-around college QB I've ever seen though and I've been singing his praises all year long. I think the part that impresses me the most is that he only started that one season...the kid is still raw and so much of what he does is just natural instinct. Heck, he looks like a baby and when that kids develops, I have a feeling that he will be one of the next all-time greats.

    But again, I don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to college quarterbacks....that's just what I see with the eye-test after watching every game this season. He plays like a veteran NFL quarterback out there with his poise and confidence- I'm just nuts over him. But at the same time, I WOULDN'T trade the farm to get him because grading QB's isn't my thing...I could be completely wrong and I wouldn't trust myself to make that decision. If Miami pulls the trigger though then I'd be ecstatic!
     
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  30. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Fair warning....if I see anyone who screamed at us for tanking when we weren't, but then lament the fact that we didn't....I will rain down hellfire.......


    ok, maybe not rain down hellfire, but I will silently judge the **** out of you.
     
  31. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    I had no problem with tanking, though I did and still do have my doubts about trading away our talent for picks because I don't think we're going to use them wisely.
    I would trade for Burrow. I think it's a wise use of the picks. Or I would draft BPA and take a QB later. I would NOT draft Tua at 5 or, God forbid, trade up for him. But I think they're going to do it. Which brings me back to my problem with trading all that talent...
     
  32. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Tua will be great.
     
  33. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    I have never seen any qb in all my years of watching college football(and I am 52)play this type of schedule and perform at an elite level in every game.Blows my mind.Pocket presence,anticipation,leadership and accuracy are off the charts!I would not be shocked if he ends up a hall of famer someday.Pisses me off we won 5 games but yes If I was the GM I would put my job on the line for him.
     
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  34. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    You can't know that. You can't know how risky the hip injury makes him because even he doesn't know that yet.
     
  35. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    If we cannot know how risky it is, why are you sure it is risky?
     
  36. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    It's risky not knowing. It's Flores and Grier risking their jobs, it's this team risking spending another 6-7 years screwing around, wasting time and money and talent. If Tua doesn't get reinjured but the hip slows him down to where he's never the QB he once was, that 5th overall pick was wasted, which is bad, but probably years of time will be wasted, which is horrible. Too big of a risk on something we KNOW is a big risk.
     
  37. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Every pick is a risk.

    Truth be told, this franchise has done literally everything it can int he past 20+ years to change its fortune......except be bold.
     
  38. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Folks say they're okay with trading up for Burrow, but let's ask this a different way. Would you trade-

    - Tua
    - a top 3 tackle in the draft
    - the best RB in the draft
    - a top 5 DE/DT/NT in the draft
    - the top LT/LB/CB/DE or S in the draft in 20201

    for

    - Burrow

    It sounds great when we're looking at straight up numbers, but once you realize the talent we're passing on it's a completely different story in my book. So even though I'd love to have Burrow, I don't know if he's worth that much if Tua gets a clean bill of health. It's a very tough decision that will literally shape the face of our franchise for the next 10 seasons.
     
  39. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    Tell me how many of the draft picks we've used in the last ten years are still with the team and then I'll answer your question.
     
  40. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I'm not disputing that...but it also has no bearing since Burrow is just as likely to be a bust as Tua or any of those other picks.
     

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