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Tua named starting QB

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by TheHighExhaulted, Oct 20, 2020.

  1. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I don't agree with this statement. We were a very boom or bust offense with Fitzpatrick. We are better than the s*** show that was last season, but there is still a lot of room to improve on the offense. One of those spots is the QB. Hopefully Tua will improve as the season goes along.
     
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  2. DolPhinPhan7

    DolPhinPhan7 Well-Known Member

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    I would argue that, of their 3 Ls, you can pin them on Ryan Fitzpatrick's inefficiency. INT's against New England and squandered drives/settled field goals against Seattle. The Buffalo L was on the Defence, but this Defence is MUCH better.

    Those two early Ls were from a much different team.
     
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  3. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I'm not trying to paint Fitz into something that he's not, but I think he's dialed in enough where he's going to put up 3-4 TD drives against just about anyone. And yeah, maybe he does throw a pick or two....but our D is giving up 18 points per game this season. Two TD's and two field goals will win most ballgames for this squad and I think Fitz has enough chemistry to get that from Gisecki, Williams and Parker.

    And I'm not saying Tua won't get there...maybe he's there next week. My only point was that Fitz can do enough today to win most of our remaining ballgames with that defense, with a field goal kicker who doesn't miss, with a punter that flips the field over and over again with near-perfect placements, etc.
     
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  4. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    If we keep playing Fitz we'll very likely miss the playoffs. That guy is notoriously unreliable and loses games that you should have won. Out of 11 seasons where Fitz started a minimum of 6 games (what you're suggesting), he led his team to a losing record 9 times and had a winning record only ONCE! That's a "911" to me.

    Either way, Tua is the future, Fitz isn't, and there's no reason to half-way give up on this season by playing Fitz (see his aforementioned record). Best to see what Tua can do, whether that's leading us to a worse record or a much better one.
     
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  5. DolPhinPhan7

    DolPhinPhan7 Well-Known Member

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    Also the theory that, should Tua turn into a bust, the chance that a Trevor Lawrence could be achieved with a Texans pick is something worth finding out this season.

    I don't think the Texans will finish behind the Jets, but this team is well built, and they'll need a franchise QB to take the next step. If not Tua, it's got to be someone else.

    Nothing I saw from Tua yesterday indicated he's a bust. It was a safe game-plan against one of the best D's in the league.
     
  6. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I completely agree in principal...but we'll see if we lose a game or two w/ Tua that we should have won. As long as we keep winning then Tua is unquestionably the right choice.

    For the other part of your comment, I kind of link it to the RT conversation we had yesterday- surroundings do matter to QB's. Maybe Fitz would play horrible for a span this season, we'll never know, and it's ultimately a good problem to have when you feel like you can win with two different starters. This has simply been the perfect team for Fitz at this point in his career and we were very lucky to have him.

    Fitz playing means Tua is not going thru these learning curves though, so it's absolutely better for the franchise for Tua to start. We've had so many rough seasons I guess I'm just not as patient as I need to be in this scenario, but I support Tua-Time and realize it's necessary.
     
  7. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    This next draft also features a few decent QB's - although it's still early days. Should the coaches not like Tua a high Texans pick or a combined pick with the Dolphins own pick, should mean that they can get another one if they really feel like they need to.

    Nothing is guaranteed in the NFL and especially not in the draft, but they did enough clearance work to be able to make two successive high picks and potentially select a second QB if they want to. Hopefully the Dolphins brass have their evaluation goggles focused in and can make the right calls, especially at QB - because they've got the ammo to almost anything they want (with the exception of the #1).

    There's a thread on 2021 QB's in the Draft forum for those interested.
     
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  8. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    But let's be honest...Fitz wasn't exactly on stacked teams. Again, using win/loss record to judge the play of the QB is silly.
     
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  9. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    It's not silly with large sample size. The guy is 58-86-1 with 4,984 passing attempts! Put a consistently above average QB in the same situations and that record will at least be closer to 50% win%. Fitz is a good backup QB, nothing more.
     
  10. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Bah, that's what you said about Matt Moore too! I think you're just prejudiced against aggressive white QBs in their 30's, LOL. They were/are both awesome leaders!
     
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  11. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    And I'm right about him too. Fitz and Moore = good backups, nothing more.
    I don't mind aggressive white QB's in the 30's. I do mind aggressive QB's of any stripe that throw too many INT's and aren't cut out to be franchise QB's, you know.. like Moore and Fitz.
    Awesome for emotional support maybe. They can do that from the sidelines.
     
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  12. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    No comment!

    No comment....gosh that bothers me....yeah, I'll stick with no comment.

    Oh heck no! Matt Moore was a freaking awesome leader!
     
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  13. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Damn.. my response wasn't good enough for 3 no comments!
    Yes he was a good leader, and his production was well above his ability as a QB, but it wasn't sustainable. Overall, he was backup quality (let's see if I get a no comment from this one.. probably not).
     
  14. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I have to get back to work today so I'll give you one more no comment, even though you secretly know that Matt Moore was one the best QB's ever!

    It's so hard to stay off these stinkin' forums when the Fins are playing great and there's so much to be excited about! I'm going to try to stay away for the next 3-4 hours though so I can grind out some work.
     
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  15. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Fitz has had a career far longer than the average career for QBs, so based on that alone I'd argue that he isn't below average. Mark Sanchez was a below average QB. Is he still getting playing time somewhere? John Beck. Cleo Lemon. Joey Harrington. Etc etc.
     
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  16. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Regarding Fitzy, there's a bit of ageism going on here. It is possible that, in your late 30s-40s, you can keep learning. If you are lucky enough to have kept your body relatively strong and apparently Fitz has, then there is no reason you can't become a better QB due the the learning and wisdom aspect which I mentioned. I'm not saying it is common, but it is not unreasonable to consider. We may have been seeing a good example of such.

    You all know that I really did not like the switch to Tua at this time and felt and still feel that there was pressure from Ross to make the move. Just look at how much publicity starting Tua got the team. There was something up with Flores in the press conferences after they made the switch to Tua. It wasn't just him being annoyed at reporters and being short and standoffish or just being upset at telling a guy like Fitzy the decision, it seemed more like a guy being forced to make decision at a time when he didn't want to make it. I certainly could be reading things wrong. Just a hunch.

    Lets not forget that all of the well deserved respect Flores and Co have been getting is largely due to that old, rotting, flash in a pan, Fitzy. We all remember how the team started off last year, getting blown out by teams and all of the BS tanking comments and how the team should possibly be penalized or whatever for tanking and ruining the careers of some of these younger players, etc. We remember how we started Rosen and sucked and how Flores went to Fitzy and said; "You're going in. We need a spark". It was then that we went on that most impressive run and Flores and Co gained a lot of deserved respect throughout the league. That all was largely due to Fitzy. He was a leader. He kept everyone, especially the young guys calm, cool and collected which is essential for having success under pressure.

    It's unfortunate that our bye week was moved up instead of being at week 11 which in when I believe it was originally scheduled to be. IMO, that would have been a more appropriate to start Tua unless we were strong contenders for the division and if he did end up sitting the entire season and hopefully having more of an off season to get ready all while he continues to work with the training staff to continue to strengthen and reinforce that hip, then so be it. We're thinking long term right? We all know the list of great QBs who sat for awhile, right? He didn't have much an offseason. He's not that far away from major hip surgery. He's a smallish QB. He has had a history of surgeries. We know of the list of other great QBs who sat and went on to have great careers and who hadn't even had major surgeries like Tua did. This all just seems so rushed. It's all about winning and that's what we were doing. Oh well. I want Tua to succeed. All we can do is support our team and hope for the best. We did just beat a good team and we are still in the hunt. Our D is viscously good.
    Peace.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2020
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  17. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    No, you're absolutely right...it doesn't matter what a quarterback is hyped, rated, etc coming into the draft. He either performs or he doesn't. The Ryan Leaf comparison is a good example. Additionally, you can add JaMarcus Russell and Johnny Manzel to that list, but Tagovailoa was listed as a generational talent and loddy doddy everybody wanted. I guarantee you the ENTIRE Dolphins organization wanted Tagovailoa, from Stephen Ross down. This wasn't just a coach's and GM's decision so if Tagovailoa ends up being just average to a bust, you can't fault that on Flores when EVERYONE wanted him.
     
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  18. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Yeah, everyone's credibility is on the line. This is also the last HC hire I'll give Ross the benefit of the doubt to. I mean 4 chances is enough. Thing is, I think he got it right this time. #1 in points allowed per game?? Since when?? Even after only 7 games that's impressive, especially considering that our talent on defense is only average or so (on paper).

    So if Flores is the right hire for defense, it's all down to the QB. Bullish on Tua too. We'll see.
     
  19. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    That’s why Flores wouldn’t be on the chopping block if Tua busts. Everyone, including Ross wanted him and everyone would be to blame for that hypothetical failure.
     
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  20. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Oh he would. Ross didn't force Flores to take Tua. This is Flores' team, and Ross isn't firing himself. So yeah he'll fire Flores if we have another run of mediocre seasons (e.g., due to Tua not panning out).
     
  21. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Shared from Club, just a little perspective on Tua's Sunday. He'll bounce back. Rams have quite the defense.
     
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  22. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    The thing is, that isn't really what most people are talking about. I think everyone knew he might make rookie mistakes. If he'd been picked off twice because he was too aggressive, I would have shrugged it off. It happens.

    The problem is, he looked timid and tentative to me when it came to using his legs. He didn't seem to have any sense when to run, when to extend a play. Every time he rolled out, it was a called roll-out. He seemed afraid to improvise. He has accuracy and I've seen he has arm strength when he was in college, but it feels as if he's afraid to run now and uncomfortable improvising.

    I also didn't think he took enough chances through the air, but I think that might have been the coach telling him not to push it when we didn't need to, when we already had a big lead. I don't know that for sure, but it makes sense.

    But when you draft a guy fifth overall and everyone says he would have gone first if it hadn't been for the injury, I expect to see something special from him...at least a HINT of something special. He might not execute perfectly, he might make mistakes, but I want to see a gunslinger who's at least trying.
     
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  23. Ronnie Bass

    Ronnie Bass Luxury Box Luxury Box

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    This was also his first start of anything or real significant playing time since his injury, no preseason to help get ready. He does need to be more assertive as he was very cautious, but perspective please.
     
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  24. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    Yeah, there's the possibility that he's timid because he's afraid to get hurt again. But I hope not, because I don't want a high first round QB who plays afraid.
     
  25. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I don't think he is afraid to be hurt again. Though I am sure it is on his mind. The players are human. A lot of receivers say it takes them a few games to trust their knees after major knee injuries.

    Also a lot of emotions, firs time seeing action, a lot of freaking people dropping the ball or runningbacks not getting 1 yard.

    I want him to come in and dominate as much as the next guy, but you have to put things into some sort of perspective
     
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  26. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Táin Bó Cúailnge Club Member

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    So in Tua's first ever start, and actual game (remember no pre-season this year), he targeted 9 different players on 22 attempts. That's about as good as it gets with spreading the ball around, and not a single player caught more than 3 passes, although several had chances.

    Williams and Gaskins killed several drives with drops and fumbles, or having the ball knocked out out of their hands. Gesicki lost a beautiful 3 down conversion on a play where Tua had Williams open underneath, but he chose the the deeper play, and the DB took the ball from Gesicki.

    Timid? Lol...

    Miami's offense ranks 26th in total 1st downs, and 29th in 3rd down conversion%, with Fitzy having played 6 of 7 games. Fitzy also had 10 TDs and 8 turnovers...

    The offense was pretty much the same as you saw in the second half of the stej game... couldn't run, and zero separation from the WRs. And just like in that game, Tua closed it out at the end when they needed 1st downs, he converted on 3rd down with Ford for 10 yards, and had hit Gaskins for another, only to have Gaskins cough the ball up when hit... But that’s what you get with Tua - great throws in critical situations...

    Tua definitely didn't light it up, but there's nothing to be unhappy about here with him in his first start. It only only gets better.
     
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  27. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    You just described Josh Rosen to a tee...and we cut him for the reasons you just asked to see in Tua's 1st start.
     
  28. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think all of that is fair. I would just posit that might have been the premiere team in the NFL with regard to their ability to snuff out any glint of promise in his first game.

    It would also help him if he had a reliable running game to lean on. They seemed to not care about that phase of the game when we called the rollouts but I'd have to go back and look.
     
  29. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    Oh hell no, that is incredibly false. Rosen could never be described as a gunslinger. He was indecisive and hesitant, very uncomfortable in the pocket.
     
  30. Dorfdad

    Dorfdad Well-Known Member

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    Holding Judgment. Tua looked pretty MEH to me honestly. Yes against a tough defense (supposedly) but he looked like a rookie and that's expected but if our defense wasn't dominating that's an L for us. We can't ask the defense for 4 turnovers every game. 98 Yards was pathetic. Hopefully, the game slows down for him quickly because he rushed a few passes and made some bad throws.

    Still have high hopes and his arm looks powerful! Maybe too fast right now for the receivers :)
     
  31. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Well, here's the $64,000 question (most of you won't get that reference), will THIS thread get 10,687 posts?

    We'll find out, but first, let's meet our contestants...
     
  32. Patster1969

    Patster1969 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    But do you not think that if the offense had had the ball more, he likely would have thrown for more yards? With the D scoring one, giving the O the shortish field possible for another and Jakeem's punt return for the score, that's 3 possible drives that we didn't have.
    He can't throw for more if the O doesn't have the ball.
    Yes, I want to see progression over the next few games but we can't complain that he doesn't throw for more yards if he isn't on the field to attempt it.
     
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  33. The Guy

    The Guy Well-Known Member

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    Based on Tua's skills, the way he's going to be a great QB in the NFL is by using his awareness of pressure, legs, and decision-making to extend plays and find the open man with a high degree of passing accuracy after going through his progression. If he can put that sort of "gestalt" of ability together and demonstrate it regularly, he'll be a great QB in this league for a long time. It's essentially a Drew Brees repertoire of abilities.

    Now I'm with you however. I was disturbed by his size. But the tentativeness I can understand given that it was his first game at the NFL level after a long layoff and no preseason. I certainly hope that changes and he can use his skills to more of a benefit.
     
  34. The Guy

    The Guy Well-Known Member

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    That's the thing I think we have to determine about Tua going forward. Was he tentative because it was his first game in the NFL after a long layoff? Or was he tentative because he feels like a boy among men out there? Either one of those can change obviously, but the latter could potentially be a problem because he isn't getting any bigger.
     
  35. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    One of the things I tried to look at with Tua were his "throws". Can he get the ball downfield and do his throws look effortless in doing so? I would say yes, based off of what little I saw in terms of throwing last Sunday. I think Tua can make any type of throw you can imagine and look good doing it. I thought his mechanics, form, all that looked great. His footwork was solid too and the guy can move around in the pocket. Lets not get too down on him because our defense decided to show up and put the smack down on the Rams. The game script obviously changed once our defense did what it did. I think we're going to see a much different game script this week against Arizona. Expect Tua to throw the ball downfield. We may possibly be playing from behind in this one and if so, then he'll get to really show us what he's got. IF....by some crazy chance our defense is dominant again and we end up in a similar game flow as last Sunday...I wont be upset at all! A win is a win at the end of the day. There is nothing wrong with the defense carrying Tua for a little bit. Eventually it'll be all up to him to win a game for us.
     
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  36. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    Okay, I am going to make my prediction here and now. It's probably going to be wrong, but it will give y'all something to laugh about if it is.

    Tua is going to come in and have some games where he plays very well, maybe 2-3. He's going to have a couple games where he doesn't do much but we win anyway. And he's going to have 2-3 where he plays absolutely horrible. And at the end of the season, we're not going to know for sure if he's any good. We're going to be in Tannehill limbo, with not enough certainty to feel confident he's the guy and not enough evidence that he's a bust to draft another QB. That's my prediction.
     
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  37. The Guy

    The Guy Well-Known Member

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    I suspect that's the modal rookie QB. Hopefully however we have people running the team who can discern within that kind of performance some notion of whether the team should build around him in the future, despite perhaps our inability to know with certainty what we have.
     
  38. Ronnie Bass

    Ronnie Bass Luxury Box Luxury Box

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    A lot of posts and takes are not going to age well in this thread. Tua baby.
     
  39. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    Tua definitely did his thing. If he's improving at this rate, the team will be golden for years to come.
     
  40. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I personally loved the play in the 4th when he tried to roll out to his left, came face-first with a defender, then tried to weave away and tripped himself. Then he tripped again moving up in the pocket. The whole time I'm thinking "Throw it away before they freakin' kill you....", but he found a small gap and jumped between two players for a 17 yard scramble.

    I won't say he played perfect today, but the kid is definitely off to a great start and hopefully today built some confidence for him. Very good 2nd showing.
     
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