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Ryan Tannehill

Discussion in 'Other NFL' started by bbqpitlover, Oct 16, 2019.

Ryan Tannehill is...

  1. A terrible QB

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. A below average QB

    4 vote(s)
    5.7%
  3. An average QB

    7 vote(s)
    10.0%
  4. An above average QB

    39 vote(s)
    55.7%
  5. An elite QB

    16 vote(s)
    22.9%
  6. The GOAT.

    4 vote(s)
    5.7%
  1. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    "Never" is correct. Check out 9:40 in the highlights. We have NEVER seen Tannehill do that, not in Miami nor in Tennessee. That also clearly shows he can do it in games with poor protection. He just hasn't shown it consistently.



    Tua's play against Arizona to keep us in the game against Murray when our defense was failing and then win it is not something we've seen from Tannehill. He carried the team that day. You're right it's only one game, but it was a special one.
     
  2. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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  3. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Yeah I don't put that in the same category as the Tua example. Tua had to evade and weave through more defenders behind the line of scrimmage, and he had to have greater quickness than Tannehill shows in your video to do that.
     
  4. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    LOL.....

    cbrad picking the Tannehill scrambles that meet his criteria of "Tua like":

     
  5. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Tua at his best would have easily done what Tannehill did in your video IMO, while I don't think the reverse is true. And I'm pretty sure most people who aren't Tua or Tannehill fans would agree. Anyway you have your opinion, but as far as I'm concerned "never" is the correct word.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2020
  6. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    As I said, we can agree to disagree.
     
  7. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Your bias is overly blatant that it blinds you from the truth. Tannehill’s been sacked 14 times this season. That’s only 2 more than Patrick Mahomes and 19 times less than Russell Wilson, so please stop with the false narrative that Tannehill has no pocket presence. It’s a lie.

    Like I’ve repeatedly said, I’m not dumping on Tagovailoa but if you are 100% honest and objective, Tua has been mediocre to average at best. He’s a rookie, I expect that but please do not commit sacrilege by comparing Tagovailoa to Marino.

    That game against the Cardinals, he played well, but we could have won that game with Fitzpatrick or Tannehill at quarterback. The TEAM was playing that well...against a phenomenal athletic quarterback in Murray.
     
  8. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Tannehill has never been known for having good pocket presence. Most people that have no stake in this debate will tell you that. And sacks are not a good way of measuring pocket presence across both pocket passers AND mobile QB's because mobile QB's often have far more sacks due to running around a lot. Look at the list of leaders in sack% to see that:
    https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_sacked_perc_career.htm

    Seriously, who in their right mind would argue Steve Young and Russell Wilson have worse pocket presence than Tannehill because their sack% is higher!?! Again, sacks aren't a good stat for comparing across different types of QB's when talking about pocket presence.

    Tua played fantastic for one game. For THAT game the comparison to Marino is appropriate. Nothing else. Yes, otherwise it's been mediocre. And no, no other QB we've had could have carried the team to a win against Arizona.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2020
  9. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    I do find it ironic that you are using a play where Tua showed poor pocket presence but good escapability to illustrate his pocket presence.... LOL, even the announcer says "Tua spins the wrong way!". The difference is that the linemen were sustaining their blocks.

    You are completely wrong on the notion that Tannehill has never been known for good pocket presence. It was a strength coming out of college. The fact that crap OL play hid it in Miami is what created the false narrative.

    Here is a scouting report:

    https://bleacherreport.com/articles...ft-texas-am-qb-ryan-tannehill-scouting-report

    upload_2020-11-23_15-28-56.png

    Here is a two part article that goes into great detail:

    https://mattwaldmanrsp.com/2012/02/09/managing-the-pocket-part-i-texas-am-qb-ryan-tannehill/
    https://mattwaldmanrsp.com/2012/02/11/managing-the-pocket-part-ii-texas-am-qb-ryan-tannehill/
     
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  10. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    Also just to add, there are different types of pocket presence.

    Marino couldnt make that play Tua did either, are we going to say Marino had no pocket presence? Of course not. Quarterbacks deal with the rush in a variety of ways that fit their gameplan and skill set.
     
    resnor likes this.
  11. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    I'm talking about in the NFL. Talk to anyone that's not a Tannehill fan and they'll tell you he often just took sacks he didn't have to. No, I'm not wrong when I say Tannehill hasn't been known for good pocket presence in the NFL.

    That's true, but it's still true that Tannehill has never been known for good pocket presence in the NFL.
     
  12. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    To have pocket presence implies there is a pocket of some sort. As I've said before most teams have a weak spot on their line to where of course a QB cant 100% know where the rush will come from but it isnt every angle on every play or best case entirely random from play to play.

    In his entire time here I'd count under ten sacks that were terrible on his part. So we are talking like...1 to 2 a year max?

    People on here, not speaking about you specifically, have a warped idea of what a QB should be able to do in the worst of circumstances which is what I'd argue Tannehill had here most of his tenure from his line to his receivers to his coaching.

    It really shouldnt be shocking that now he is doing the things he was always capable of but not given a fair chance to do
     
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  13. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    Jesus.......... below the stereo, to the right of.....

    The NARRATIVE came from crappy OL play, just like we saw Tua struggle with yesterday....
     
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  14. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    It was way more than 1 to 2 a year. I'd say on average more like once or twice a game where the issue popped up. It was a common source of criticism on these boards throughout Tannehill's tenure here, and I think in most of those cases posters weren't asking for unrealistic responses on the part of the QB. We all saw how bad the OL was, and we all saw how bad Tannehill's pocket presence was. Both were true.

    That's where we disagree. A lot of us saw BOTH bad OL play AND bad pocket presence on Tannehill's part. A lot of posters here will agree with me, at least their posting record does. Same is true with Tua yesterday. He could have done WAY better even given the OL struggles. We saw him do it before.
     
  15. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    The fact is that Tua almost spun directly into a sack as was noted by the announcer when it happened. Great escapability, but pocket presence on that play? No.
     
  16. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    I'm just saying even if we wanted to give that argument credence, it doesnt mean QB who cant make that specific play have no pocket presence.

    I agree that it was a terrible spin, he was lucky to not get absolutely destroyed. He did stick with the play though which was good, a lot of QB dont make it to the bad spin.
     
  17. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    All I know is that people, including myself said Tannehill was capable of A, B and C without factors X, Y and Z holding him back.

    Now those factors arent holding him back and he is accomplishing A,B and C.

    I dont know why it's so hard for some people, again not you, to recognize this was always there if you watched the tape and knew what you were looking at.

    I honestly love all you guys, bit at the end of the day I dont care how many people believe or talked about it as it happened. They were clearly wrong.
     
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  18. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    Wrong. Sorry, you're just wrong.
     
  19. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    I guess my big issue is this. Why is it so hard for any individual to admit maybe they were wrong? Why do we need to cover it with 100 reasons we are actually right despite the evidence?

    I've been wrong many many times. I didnt think Russel Wilson was going to be a great QB. At 16 or so I was obsessed with Vince Young. More recently I thought Osweiler was going to end up a stud QB.

    It happens. We are all wrong sometimes and right other times.
     
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  20. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    BTW, he got good protection on the play you are referencing, otherwise he would have gotten crushed.
     
  21. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Well then I guess by your "logic", it's more than appropriate to compare Tannehill to Marino, as Tannehill has had numerous games MUCH better than what Tua did against the Cardinals.

    Oh wait I forgot, Tannehill sucks...
     
  22. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Tannehill never had games like Tua's Arizona game where you could say he was "carrying" the team to a win like that. No, never. You're right though that Tannehill has had a lot more games where he played "elite", including a full season, but that's because he was being put in situations ideal for him, not situations where the team had to rely on him to win.

    Either way, one thing Tannehill can take to the bank is that he came in #1 in passer rating last year. That's not easy. Even Marino did that only once. Note though that people don't compare Tannehill to Marino precisely because with Marino you could expect to win even when the rest of the team was not playing poorly. Not so with Tannehill. Tua? Who knows, but he did do that in one game.

    Also, you really shouldn't start with these strawman arguments again. Never did I say Tannehill sucks in this debate.
     
  23. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Tannehill never had a game like Tua's Arizona game where you could say he carried the team to a win huh? Ok, challenge accepted! I just blindly picked ANY of Tannehill's games from last season and the one I picked indiscriminately was the Titans against the Jaguars.

    In Miami's game against the Cardinals, Tagovailoa was 20/28, 248 yards and 2 TDs. He also had 7 rushes for 35 yards.

    In the Titans game against the Jaguars, Tannehill was 14/18 for 259 yards and 2 TDs. Tannehill also had 7 rushes for 40 yards and 2 TDs. That's 4 touchdowns via Tannehill.

    One not enough? Ok, let's take a look at another...

    in his Titans debut against the Chargers, Tannehill was 23/29 for 312 yards, 2 TDs and 1 Int.

    How about another?

    In the game against the Raiders, Tannehill was 21/27 for 391 yards, 3 TDs and 1 Int...which included a deep 91 yard TD pass.

    I'm not going to sit here for hours on end and go over every game with you but if you actually truly believe that Tua's one game performance equates Marino comparison while dismissing Tannehill and his SIGNIFICANTLY better performances, then you are not being OBJECTIVE one bit.
     
  24. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Once again, it's not the final output. Yes Tannehill had many "elite" games last year. Not the point. It's how those stats came to be. We all know Tannehill was aided tremendously by Henry, a good OL, Brown, etc. I can even agree that in a few games Tannehill was the most important player for winning the game (not many, but there are a few yes).

    But NEVER did he truly "carry" the team. In fact, if I were to try to come up with the closest example of that it's in Tannehill's rookie year in that game against Seattle and Wilson. At least that's getting closer to what we're talking about. Still wasn't as impressive as Tua vs. Murray.

    Seriously, talk to non-Dolphins and non-Titans fans and ask whether Tannehill is the type of QB that "carries" his team to a win. The answer is no. That's not who he is. He's highly efficient in the right situation, but he's not a guy you rely on when a lot of other stuff breaks down.
     
  25. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Revisiting this debate now after another month has passed, Brady's passer rating after today's game is 95 when the league average is 94.2. It's becoming more and more likely that the stats-based prediction of Brady being "done", as in no better than average, is correct (and note he has a great surrounding cast in Tampa).

    Anyway, another 5 games to go but this is exactly what was expected, at least statistically.

    A bit more surprising to me, but still happy to see, is Belichick's NE at 4-6! Can you imagine NE ending with a losing record?? And it's to a great degree attributable to their offense, which is now 26th in points scored!! .. from 7th last year. Those two should've sucked it up and ended their career together.
     
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  26. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    You know, you really should have looked those games up...series by series....play by play before bringing Henry into the discussion. That's just plain sloppy posting.

    And as for "carrying" the team? I'm sure there are a lot of Chiefs fans that would disagree with you. Tennessee down 10-0 at the end of the 1st, TANNEHILL carrying the team on a 4 play drive (3 passes/1 rush) scoring their first touchdown...not to mention that Tannehill threw the go ahead touchdown pass with :23 left in the game....oh and he himself ran the 2 point conversion in.

    No, that's not carrying your team. Your bias blinds you.
     
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  27. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    Yikes.... the Tannehill denial and the Tua hype strong with this one....
     
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  28. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    WTF..... for a "stats guy", you sure do post some fluffy nonsense on topics you are passionate about.
     
  29. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    He has been biased against Tannehill all along. He has attempted to keep it hidden and stick to the stats (which he is damn good at) but when it comes to discussion not involving stats, it is obvious. Being smitten with Tua has only amplified it.

    The Dolphins got a defensive touchdown, good pass protection, and support from the running game.

    Compared to Murray, Tua had far less pressure and far more bad throws.

    upload_2020-11-24_7-24-57.png

    I loved how he looked in the game games but some of the reaction is just over the top.
     
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  30. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    I kind of find it interesting that there seems to be a pretty sizable overlap between people who wont acknowledge Tannehill and people who are crowning Tua as a franchise QB.

    I dont know if he will or wont be, my personal guess is no, but I still find the overlap interesting.
     
  31. The Guy

    The Guy Well-Known Member

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    That holds with regard to other statistics as well. He's currently middle of the road in 2020 with regard to EPA per play and CPOE.
     
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  32. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I've said it for seven years now...I think Tannehill has hearing problems. When he knows the pressure is coming he does great rolling out, side-stepping, or whatever he needs to do. Very good pocket presence. Yet somehow, inexplicably, he has instances where he has no idea the defender is there until the guy is right on top of him and knocking the ball out. Terrible pocket presence.

    I honestly believe he's a hearing aid away from being a perennial Pro Bowler. To me, a general statement on pocket presence doesn't fit him because he can be so incredible...or so horrible...depending on the angle that the pressure comes from.
     
  33. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Wasn't Brady below average last season though? He has a better roster this season but he's lost Ernie Adams and SpyGate, so that's too much for me to compute on what that means. Even the true GOAT (Manning) struggled his last season but for him it was the loss of arm strength...how does Brady look throwing the football? I can't bring myself to watch simply from lack of interest.
     
  34. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    I've seen every Tannehill + Titans game since 2019 except one I think. Never did I think Tannehill was "carrying" the team. So no this isn't sloppy posting. I'm telling you what I saw and what just about every non-Tannehill fan will say.

    As far as bias, just remember that all those league insiders, from NFL execs, HC's, GM's, OC's, DC's and scouts consistently ranked Tannehill not in Tier 1 = "Can carry his team each week", nor in Tier 2 = "Can carry his team sometimes", but into Tier 3, which is "Legit starter but still needs heavy run game and defense to win".

    Sorry to keep pointing this out, but the bias is on those who think Tannehill "carries" the team. That's simply not what most fans in the NFL (ask around) or what people who know the game best think. And that's not taking anything away from his "elite" performance in 2019.

    So saying Tannehill played "elite" in 2019 is not "acknowledging" Tannehill. We HAVE to agree with you that Tannehill is like Mahomes and "carries" the team to wins or it's not "acknowledging" Tannehill. Total bull****. People have already "acknowledged" Tannehill is above average and needed a new environment to flourish. That doesn't mean he "carries" the team. If you HAD to choose a Titans player that does that it would be Derrick Henry.
     
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  35. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    I wasnt speaking directly about you and if you dont feel you fall into that category I dont know why youd take it that way, nor did I imply it was a bad thing anyway.

    Perhaps a better way to word it is that people who had a bad evaluation of Tannehill as a QB before his breakout in Tennessee, if you really want to be included?
     
  36. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Yeah he had a -0.2292 z-score last year. The year before was 0.4. It's straddling average. With one season worth of games the confidence intervals are large enough to overlap with z-score = 0 = average. I haven't looked at any of Brady's games, but I'm definitely happy he's not doing as well!
     
  37. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    It is not hearing. It is his clock. IMO, it most often happens when he has a numbers advantage from the side that pressure ultimately comes from. I think he thinks "two vs one over there, I'm good". Then someone blows a block....
     
  38. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    OK no problem. It's just that I'm the only one here arguing on the other side so it's hard to see the context you intended. I'm also high on Tua, so you can see why I interpreted what you said the way I did. I'll keep what you said in mind next time.
     
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  39. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    To be fair, both Gase and his current head coach have said Tannehill is carrying the team, not Henry. I generally trust head coaches more than other types of experts.
     
  40. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    The HC of the team the player is on is pretty clearly more biased. Their opinions will be made public and can impact team chemistry. That's why these insider rankings are all done anonymously. I personally would trust that more than what the HC of your own team says in public.
     

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