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Ryan Tannehill

Discussion in 'Other NFL' started by bbqpitlover, Oct 16, 2019.

Ryan Tannehill is...

  1. A terrible QB

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. A below average QB

    4 vote(s)
    5.7%
  3. An average QB

    7 vote(s)
    10.0%
  4. An above average QB

    39 vote(s)
    55.7%
  5. An elite QB

    16 vote(s)
    22.9%
  6. The GOAT.

    4 vote(s)
    5.7%
  1. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    You could absolutely be right...but it doesn't feel like that to me. He's taken so many blindsiding hits that other QB's somehow seem to sense. I'm not a QB so I couldn't give an opinion on that, but he doesn't seem to have whatever other NFL QB's use.

    I mean, we've seen Tua step away from pressure from behind him this season...how does he know? It's something instinctual I think that would almost have to be based on hearing.
     
  2. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    I think league executives hate being wrong as much as some posters do...... How many of those execs would have predicted a passer rating of 117.5 and a YPA of 9.6 and a trip to the AFC Championship for Tannehill in 2019. ZERO. NADA. ZIP. So, they.... were..... wrong..... and so were you.

    LOL @ the attempt to differentiate elite play and carrying the team...... For the record, no QB "carries" the team. It is a bull****, made up phrase. All those QBs "carry their team" right up to the point where they don't..... then there are excuses made.....

    Russell Wilson was "carrying" the Seahawks right up until he wasn't and started chucking INTs all over. Then Seattle decided they needed more balance..... surprise, surprise. And, he's had an EXCELLENT season.
     
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  3. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Well, if the coach doesn't believe it then they're going to bench that QB like we saw this week w/ Tua. That's why I've always trusted the coaches....even if they're not being forthcoming. But both Gase and his current HC (who I can't remember the name of right now) accredits RT for being the main cog in the wheels.
     
  4. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Not necessarily. It's not always benching vs. not benching. A lot of stuff is just what to say in public and what not to. There's a reason anonymous responses are generally more trustworthy: you don't have to worry about consequences of what's said.
     
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  5. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    No I get it. I was more referencing posters across the board, not specific to this thread itself. I can see why you took it that way now, I should have been clear.
     
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  6. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Vrabel
     
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  7. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    Little caveat that diesnt really change your post at all.

    Anonymous replies are useful when you know generally the group being asked. In other words if you know the poll is NFL GMs or coaches and the replies themselves are anonymous.

    Just having a random anonymous source IMO doesnt convey more or less accuracy.
     
  8. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    The caveats go further than that. Anonymous responses may even be less accurate if the person feels they can say things that are untrue without consequences. For most questionnaires that’s probably not the case (hence my statement) but I’d certainly want any subject matter expert to be named if they’re testifying in court with the transcript made public.

    It’s a bit tricky though: for formulating public policy I’d definitely want any scientist that says “this is what the science says” to be named, but you definitely want anonymous reviews for research papers because people often know each other in the field. That latter example is closer to the case with the QB tier poll.
     
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  9. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    So is this argument about Tannehill finally dead, taking into account today's performance? Was dead for me years ago, still...

    Edit: Not that he did anything special today, he just did his job (as usual).
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2020
  10. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Funny you bumped a thread that nobody had posted in for five days to ask if the thread is dead. Isn't that sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy there?
     
  11. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    I'm guessing by your edit you're talking about the original, long-standing argument about whether Tannehill is actually at minimum an above average QB that was held back by bad surrounding cast (and coach) in Miami? For all practical purposes that was resolved after week 9, at least from a purely statistical point of view, which is highly conservative.

    See post #10699:
    https://www.thephins.com/threads/ryan-tannehill.94693/page-268#post-3315391

    Now that a few more weeks have passed maybe we can update the last sentence in that post:
    The only reason to revisit this would be if Tannehill starts averaging high 60's ratings, which we know isn't happening.
     
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  12. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    My money is on the Coach, not the surrounding cast.
    Significant offensive coaches Tannehill had in Miami and their league rank sinse leaving Miami by passer rating:
    Zac Taylor (Cinci) ranked 23 so far in 2020 and 30 in 2019
    Bill Lazor (Chi/Cinci) ranked 27 so far in 2020, out of the league in 2019, 25in 2018, and 16 in 2017
    Adam Gase (NYJ) ranked 31 so far in 2020 and 27 in 2019.
    For an average rank 25.6 of out 32.

    Those same coaches‘ league rank with Tannehill as QB in Miami
    2018 - 18
    2017 - n/a
    2016 - 8
    2015 - 17
    2014 - 11
    2013 - 21
    2012 - 26

    For an average rank of 16.8.

    Tannehill in Tennessee was 1st in 2020 and is currently 7th (to be updated after all of this week’s games are finished) for an average* of 4th in the league.

    While this I am sure, because of sample size, has no scientific or mathematical validity the numbers show that RT17 improved the league rankings of his Miami OCs by about 10 ranks. And if people believe Tennessee’s coaches are average (the common view before RT17 became starter) he has improved them by roughly 10 ranking slots.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2020
  13. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    I didn't see Tannehill miss a throw all game. He had 170 yards at the half and should have had 2 passing TDs (stupid NFL scoring ruled it a run) and a rushing TD. He has complete control of that offense.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2020
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  14. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    One minor quibble, for me the argument was whether he was a potentially excellent QB that was being held back. Some of us saw the traits in Miami. He always had the arm talent. His accuracy was significantly improved under Lazor and Gase because they refined his mechanics.

    Like most QBs, he is not without his flaws. Tennessee has been smart enough to play to his strengths and has been able to build a solid supporting cast on offense. They also seem to have a front office and coaching staff that can find and coach offensive linemen. They are a well run, smart, disciplined, tough football team. None of that was true in Miami.

    Just yesterday, while watching Brady struggle in the first half, the commentator covering the highlights noted that if you can pressure Brady without blitzing, you can disrupt him and he will make mistakes, noting - "He is not going to create with his feet." This has been true of Brady for his ENTIRE CAREER. This has been especially true for pressure coming up the middle.

    Now ask yourself (not you specifically, but all the naysayers), if one of the greatest of all time can flaws and still be one of the greatest, why the hell can't Tannehill have flaws and still be given full credit for what he is doing? Makes NO F'N SENSE.

    And for the record.... Gase is now 7-20 as HC of the Jets. Bill Lazor is continuing to stink it up as an OC (now in Chicago). Joe Philbin is the offensive line coach of the 3-8 Cowboys.
     
  15. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    Ya his receivers had some ugly drops/through the hands plays, else it would've been disgusting.
     
  16. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    Call it fan PTSD, to an extent...I'm working on getting past it. I asked because I'd somehow missed cbrad's post that he linked, and I knew he was going to post it.

    I never fought harder for any player than I did for Tannehill. Got dogged out pretty hard on it by several people who have since changed their opinion of him. Had to listen to one particular "fan" change every possible statistical argument around the QB position to fit his incorrect narrative for several years, for reasons I can't fathom.

    Bill Lazor, "you're going to get us all fired." Yep...because YOU SUCK! Pauly's post nailed it on the head.

    Fast-forward to 2020...have to watch him have an outstanding career with another team, because the team I have loved since 4 years old (48 years) was too ****ing stupid to realize what they had. Happy for him, but its just a complete embarrassment for this organization to be this exposed on its dysfunction...and I'm glad he did it. That kid gave his heart, soul and guts to this team, and got crapped on.

    Part of my angst goes back to the Marino days, where this organization wasted what should've been a monumentally successful career and era for this team. Some say, "well they had a shot every year, that's all you can ask." No...it's not...Marino retiring w/o a ring is absolutely inexcusable, and the Dolphins have never recovered from that travesty (nor have I, I guess).

    And being from a military background, I fully believe it starts at the top. This owner flailed at the position for a long time, and it spread downward. But I believe, by him hiring this coach and GM combo, the Dolphins have finally turned a corner and are headed for a much brighter future...its just a shame they had to waste most of the career, of the best QB we've had since Marino, to get there.
     
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  17. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    To put a finer point on it, Gase is 7-20 post Tannehill and Tannehill is 17-7 post Gase...... the Dolphins are 12-15 post Gase and Tannehill.
     
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  18. Cashvillesent

    Cashvillesent A female Tannehill fan

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    The Titans offense is one of the best in the league...

    But I'm not sure if they have all it takes, their defense has been so bad all year, not sure if they can make noise in the playoffs. They are going to need the offense to put up 30 plus each game to have a chance.
     
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  19. Cashvillesent

    Cashvillesent A female Tannehill fan

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    So why did the offense average 17 PPG with Henry averaging 67 yards/game as the main RB in the 22 games during 2018/2019 before the QB change? Afterwards the offense has averaged 29 PPG over 24 games and Henry has produced at a much higher level (130 yards/game which is elite level)..........



    The difference? QB play and while we can debate what tier Tannehill is in, he's put up elite production: 111.2 passer rating with 50 passing TD's (7.5%) and 10 INT's (1.5%) with a YPA of 8.4 in those 24 games.......Not to mention 7 rushing TD's.....Oh yeah, the team was 11-11 in those first 22 and have been 17-7 in the last 24.......



    I'd also add that it's been more than proven that play action, formation, and motion dictate action from the defense in pass/run neutral or early down scenarios. The play action works whether it's Henry back there or another back. Kyle Shanahan, McVay, and LaFluer had an article talking in detail about how they try to have a variety of plays from the same personnel groupings and formation to make the defense play on their heels.



    Tannehill is far more valuable and it's laughable that people would say otherwise in today's NFL. It's not a knock on Henry but that's just the reality of it.
     
  20. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    That's a tough argument either way. On the surface, RT is definitely more valuable...but there's not another back in the league like Henry. He's a unicorn, a generational talent, and that offense doesn't run the same without him on the field. I generally hate the arguments of who's better, x or y, but I felt like I had to add that to the conversation.

    Even if you say Tannehill is a top-5 quarterback, Henry is in a class of his own at RB. I wouldn't say RT is "far more valuable".
     
  21. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Maybe. But he wasn't playing like a unicorn, a generational talent, until after playing beside Tannehill.
     
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  22. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    It's a symbiotic relationship. They both benefit from one another, it's pointless to ask which is more important because they both need what the other provides to function at their best.
     
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  23. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    LOL, I couldn't tell you because I wasn't watching the Titans then. I know his production increased with RT on the field but it's tough to say what that means without more context (IE, watching film). They're a fantastic duo and again, I try to avoid the "who's better" debates anyway since it's all subjective.

    I only made the comment because Henry makes Tannehill better as well, so you can't just dismiss one of them and give all the credit to the other. They're both killing it together.
     
  24. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Ryan is running that offense as perfect as anyone could hope. But this isn't even a 1A-1B situation....Henry is far and above the teams MVP and that's on BOTH sides of the ball.

    We can all appreciate that Tanny is playing great without having to get silly.
     
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  25. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Well, Michael Jordan was clearly the MVP as well, but he never won a championship (or even a single playoff series) without Pippen. Yet Pippen won multiple playoff series during the two seasons Jordan played baseball. Does that mean Pippen was actually the GOAT?

    That's a rhetorical question, of course, because they were both elite and simply incredible together. I'm just using it to illustrate that "the facts" aren't always black and white.
     
  26. M1NDCRlME

    M1NDCRlME Fear The Spear

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    Spoken like somebody old enough to have real life experiences and understanding. You're an old head like me. Too many people don't want to acknowledge nuance and grey areas. And no that was not a slam on anybody commenting above, just a general observation about the current state of the humanity.
     
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  27. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    It is a perfect marriage, the Titans and Tannehill. Everything else is semantics.
     
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  28. Cashvillesent

    Cashvillesent A female Tannehill fan

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    No it really isn't a tough argument. Even if Henry is the best running RB in football, and that can be debated, it's meaningless. The QB is far more important in running a functional offense and the very same Henry was ordinary more often than not when the QB play was poor.



    The value/important of the QB position is 1000 times more critical to success. I'll take the top 5 QB every day of the week over the best RB. So will every decision maker in football.
     
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  29. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Okay, but they basically have both...making this entire discussion meaningless.

    Yet there's also a much deeper meaning. Tannehill wasn't an elite, top-5 type QB in Miami after many seasons. Henry wasn't an elite RB with other QB's. Why not? Maybe the true MVP is the coach or the offensive line, or maybe it's that entire offense from top to bottom. The point is that you can't point to one piece and put it in a vacuum- football is a team sport.

    Maybe the QB is 1,000x more critical to success, but we know that this isn't Tannehill suddenly becoming a world-beater and carrying the entire team solo. I love what he's done and I'm massively proud of the kid, but after 270 pages hopefully most here realize that there's no simple answer. Stats can't solve this riddle and neither can film....Tannehill has simply clicked in this offense.
     
  30. Cashvillesent

    Cashvillesent A female Tannehill fan

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    Well, in the Titans case, we actually can do that. They had the same personnel, scheme, and play caller in 2019 prior to the QB change. At the time, alot of others wanted the OL coach fired, the OC fired, and were roasting the lack of weapons.......The offense went from one of the worst to one of the best and still remains there - even surviving injuries to the OL this year. You will never find a case study that illustrates the importance of a QB to an offense better than what we saw in 2019.



    People continue to harp on what Tannehill did in Miami as concrete proof that he's not capable of being excellent. Well, his coaches were Joe Philbin and then Adam Gase. Miami's offensive lines per PFF ranked at the bottom of the NFL every year he was the QB.



    The Titans are well coached, have a good OL, and good skill players. Henry, AJ, Davis, Smith all are better with Tannehill at QB - that's what good QB's do. The situation is perfect for Tannehill. Of course, it also is for Henry.



    But none of this changes the fact that Tannehill is more valuable and the QB position is far more important
     
  31. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    We also have the game vs NO last season. The Titans sat out Henry. Tannehill led the team to 28 points on 17 of 27 passing for 272 yards with 3 TDs and 0 INTs for a passer rating of 133.6.

    In the first 4 games of this year Henry averaged less than 4 YPC. The Titans were 4-0 with Tannehill throwing 9 TDs and 1 INT. They averaged 30.5 points per game.

    Not sure why people are still denying this.
     
  32. Cashvillesent

    Cashvillesent A female Tannehill fan

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    By every metric Tannehill is a top 5 QB since he took over the team. We went from one of the worst offenses to one of the best instantaneously.



    I’m getting tired of seeing any argument that doesn’t acknowledge Tannehill has been the center piece and one of the deadliest QBs in the league. It’s a joke at this point. Without him we were terrible and now we have a great offense.


    I don’t care how to you try to frame it. It doesn’t really matter. The stats on all sides show Tannehill is the engine. Henry has openly admitted this. It’s about time some of you guys stop lying to yourselves.
     
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  33. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    The stats can't show which is more the engine because we don't have sufficient Tannehill without Henry data.

    Regardless, the general view around the NFL (whether you're tired of it or not it's still what most people think) is that Tannehill is NOT an "elite" QB that consistently "carries" the team — a concept people understand even if it's hard to quantify — and that Henry is the centerpiece. I tend to view it that way too based on what I see, and as I pointed out so do the NFL GM's, HC's, OC's, DC's, scouts, etc. that consistently leave Tannehill out of Tier 1 in those QB rankings.

    Anyway, all Tannehill needs to do to change minds is consistently produce like an elite QB, you know like Rodgers, Brees, Wilson and Mahomes (arguably the 4 QB's today that are near universally considered elite) and he'll be in that group. But right now there's almost no one outside of Tannehill/Titans fans that would argue he belongs with those.
     
  34. Cashvillesent

    Cashvillesent A female Tannehill fan

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    Without Tannehill we were one of the worst scoring teams.

    If Henry is the center piece our offense would of been better. It wasn't.
     
  35. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    In 2016 and 2017 you were ranked #14 and #19 by points scored, so around average. It's only in 2018 that it dropped off precipitously, so you were slightly below average overall over those years, not by any stretch one of the worst.

    Also, I think it's clear Henry alone doesn't do it. It's the Henry + Tannehill (and maybe a bit of Brown) tandem. Stats can't show right now who is more important. All we know is that together they give you one of the best offenses.
     
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  36. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    It’s crystal clear that Tannehill was the missing piece of the Titans offense.
     
  37. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    lol yes that's true. Actually it's one of the best examples out there of the rest of the team already built but missing the QB. Doesn't change the fact that in many cases the QB was picked well before the rest of the team was built (e.g., Montana), but yes Tannehill was the missing piece for the Titans offense.

    Dolphins were also such a team in the early 2000's after getting Ricky. Too bad Wannstupid thought Jamar Fletcher was better than Drew Brees when we already had Surtain and Madison. Such a momentous decision in our franchise history.
     
  38. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    No QB carries the team. Every QB needs a good supporting cast. Besides, you changed the question from "Is Henry or Tannehill more important to the Titan's offense?" to "Is Tannehill as good as Mahomes, Rodgers, Wilson, and Brees?"

    The Titans chose who was more important when they signed Tannehill to a long term contract first.

    That same group of NFL GM's, HC's, OC's, DC's, scouts, etc. would have failed BADLY at predicting Tannehill's success in Tenn, so why does their opinion matter now? They've already been proven wrong.
     
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  39. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    When people say "carry" they mean something like "often be predominantly responsible for winning when the rest of the team isn't playing well", or something like that. The NFL insiders who answered those questions didn't have an issue with the question, nor do most of the rest of us. It's common language and it refers to something that is generally not ascribed to Tannehill, even if it's hard to quantify.

    Regarding switching the topic, Cashvillesent responded specifically to me, and I had said earlier that if anyone is "carrying" the team IMO it would be Henry, so I'm just defending what I said.

    As far as contracts, signing someone first or second isn't necessarily the best metric of which player is more important. You have no idea what goes on behind the scenes in terms of negotiation.

    Finally, while those NFL insiders like those of us who thought Tannehill was average didn't predict Tannehill's success in 2019, that doesn't mean you or any other Tannehill supporter is better at predicting Tannehill's success or failure. Prior to the 2018 season there was widespread agreement among Tannehill supporters that 2018 was the year he would have breakout success because: 1) he had the right coach in Gase who believed in him, and 2) he had the right surrounding pieces. Boy was that wrong. Gase turned out to be terrible and Tannehill performed average even with the "right" surrounding cast. At least for those predictions I was right.

    So let's not act like you or anyone else here is better at predicting how QB's fare in different situations. Tannehill supporters were generally wrong in their predictions while Tannehill was in Miami, while Tannehill detractors were generally wrong with Tannehill in Tennessee.
     
  40. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    This is some revisionism.

    Those of us who defended Tannehill in Miami were 100% in our predictions. Tannehill is a different QB when playing for a coach who trusts him and has his back, gives him a commitment to the run game, and allows him to audible.

    That's all we ever said about Tannehill in Miami. That he needed the coach to trust him, and give him the tools to deal with opposing defenses, like a consistent run game and the ability to audible. We all thought Gase was going to do those things. He was the QB whisperer. The problem was, Gase was a fraud, so he didn't actually do anything to improve the situation regarding Tannehill.
     
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