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Ryan Tannehill

Discussion in 'Other NFL' started by bbqpitlover, Oct 16, 2019.

Ryan Tannehill is...

  1. A terrible QB

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. A below average QB

    4 vote(s)
    5.7%
  3. An average QB

    7 vote(s)
    10.0%
  4. An above average QB

    39 vote(s)
    55.7%
  5. An elite QB

    16 vote(s)
    22.9%
  6. The GOAT.

    4 vote(s)
    5.7%
  1. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    For teams, not for individual RB's because they don't all have the same load nor are they used in the same situations. You could apply it to individual RB's only if they were responsible for all team carries.

    Yes he was. He was considered one of the league's top deep threats. He was one of our priorities in free agency because of that. Tannehill just couldn't time him.

    Everyone knows Fitzpatrick was never looked at as a long term solution. Flores and Grier did well to plan a multi-year rebuild, and clearly 2020 is where they were targeting QB in a talent rich field with Tua the most hyped until his injury.

    You're right of course that none of this matters if you can't find that QB, which is why I've always advocated trying every few years until you find one. The team finally took a QB I wanted, so I'm really hoping it's our time now to enjoy that kind of QB instead of always seeing another team succeed at it.
     
  2. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    I hope Tua is great also but that doesn't change the fact that the Titans HAVE found their QB. Case closed. You can try to spin it anyway you want. Invent new ways to try to discredit what Tannehill is doing, doesn't matter. He is playing like a top 5 QB. Period. You'd have to be an IDIOT to dump something like that to go mining for Mahomes. If Tua turns into that, I'll take it but no team should dump a top 10 QB on a prayer. Frankly, the Dolphins SHOULD HAVE FOUND OUT what they had by putting a decent team around him. That is just undeniable at this point and it STILL pissed me off.
     
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  3. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    BTW, I refused to watch the Dolphins last season (after being a fan for 47 years). I also didn't watch the team until they started Tua. My 17 year old son and I have gone to watch them play at a sports bar or somewhere every game that Tua has started.
     
  4. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    It's a catch-22. It's hard to put the right pieces around Tannehill, which is why we couldn't find out what he could do with those pieces. He has to go to a team that already has those pieces before you can see what he can do.

    Good to hear. We'll see what happens.
     
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  5. Cashvillesent

    Cashvillesent A female Tannehill fan

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    So explain to us what are those proper sorroundings. Because this Titans team doesnt look better than last years team and yet Tannehill has kept the same play.
     
  6. M1NDCRlME

    M1NDCRlME Fear The Spear

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    That would be King Henry II. The original King Henry played for Arsenal in the EPL.
     
  7. Cashvillesent

    Cashvillesent A female Tannehill fan

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    Tannehill made Hartline. Hartline was a bum, lol
     
  8. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    That's pretty obvious. One of the best RB's in the league that others have to game plan against, an OL good enough to give Tannehill time to scan and throw, and at least one really good receiver in Brown. You had that last year and this year.

    The main difference from last year is on defense not offense. Your defense went from above average to below average. Have to fix that if you want a decent chance at a SB.
     
  9. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    See this is where folks like you look at "players" and that's the end all be all for you. You always want to counter that no no no, I've always said the head coach was the most important person on the team but yet your posts are always contrary to any of this.

    I don't give a rat's butt what players we had. Joe Philbin and Mike Sherman/Bill Lazor/Zac Taylor...Adam Gase all ***SUCKED*** and it didn't matter WHAT players they had. Their offensive schemes absolutely ***SUCKED*** and TANNEHILL did what he could to make chicken salad out of chicken ****!! These players, including Tannehill went on to teams that proved to be beneficial to these players becuase their COACHING staff was wire tight, save Houston...a flash in the pan.

    Please, do tell everyone what Joe Philbin, Mike Sherman, Bill Lazor, Zac Taylor and Adam Gase have done since leaving the Dolphins? Oh yea, Adam Gase won his FIRST game today...CONGRATUATIONS!!!

    Meanwhile, in Miami Brian Flores took a gutted team last season and after a 0-7 start, finished the season 5-4 and this season with a completely new team, we're vying for the playoffs. It's all about coaching, so please put away all of your crao about this player and that player and who had what...Tannehill didn't have crap for a coaching staff in Miami. Now he does!!!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 21, 2020
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  10. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    TDK your view of the influence of HC's is just completely unrealistic in that it doesn't fit the data at all. I went through a lot of this before with you, mostly with QB's. I already showed you how win% changed dramatically for different coaches with and without Peyton Manning for example, and also for some other QB's.

    For the Titans your view doesn't fit either because the sudden increase in offensive efficiency and production occurred when they made a player change: Tannehill for Mariota. According to you it shouldn't matter who the QB is because the HC was the same. You're wrong though. Player talent matters, and it matters a lot.

    And no, none of my posts are contrary to what I've said about HC > QB. You just (incorrectly) think that when someone says QB is important that this somehow means HC isn't.
     
  11. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    One could argue those 2 elements ALONE are very important to the success of a QB/passing game. Especially when you're going through numerous new offensive systems in a short amount of years. He was above average at many times throughout his Dolphins career, in spite of those contributing factors...that was why I always defended him so much.

    He has made 1, maybe 2 throws he couldn't or didn't make while at Miami, in Tennessee, that were eye-openers (that ridiculous throw to AJ Brown at the 3 from around the 50, in 2019 I think against the Saints or Texans, can't remember exactly, but it was INSANE...lowest probability reception of the season per Next Gen Stats IIRC). Aside from that, IMO, same guy. I'm on record numerous times saying I'll take me an above-average QB with an overall good team with good coaching, over an excellent QB on a scrub team and/or sub-par coaching (2019/20 Titans vs. 2018 Packers). Only, Tannehill has shown he's an outstanding QB given a good situation and team around him.

    Edit: One could even say, he elevates his team by his play, given the stark difference between the team's performance under Mariota and Tannehill (and the same Henry).
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2020
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  12. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Absolutely. Depends on the QB how much the OL matters but for Tannehill it matters a ton. Coach is always important except for the most exceptional talents at QB.

    Here I disagree. There's much more that's different with Tannehill in Tennessee. Remember in Miami he could NEVER run a good 4-minute or 2-minute offense? No problem in Tennessee. Just in general his decision-making is better. Obviously, he plays a lot more confident. It's just the right environment for him, but no I don't think it's the same QB. I do think he's developed, and IMO if you transplanted him back in Miami he'd do better than he actually did.
     
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  13. Cashvillesent

    Cashvillesent A female Tannehill fan

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  14. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    I stopped reading after “Tannehill was average in Miami”.

    By your account, Miami had a PERFECT situation and Tannehill just couldn’t pull his own weight
     
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  15. Cashvillesent

    Cashvillesent A female Tannehill fan

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    Thats what makes his sorroundings weak. His defense isnt doing him any favors....basically the worst 3rd down defense in history.

    Also, he has been playing with a backup RT all season, a third stringer LT [Lewan has suffered an season injury since week 6] an banged up Safford, yet he has kept his play basically at an elite level. Titans oline has been having a down year. They been a subpar at run block, but pass pro has been terrible all season.
     
  16. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Nice deflection...you completely avoided the question while attempting to intellectually reply. Man firing Philbin and Gase were the STUPIDEST things the Dolphins could have done!!! (Sarcasm) Man I wish our team was as good as their teams are!

    Now please show me when I have EVER said that any quarterback can play for a team and win. I have NEVER said that and your attempt to portray any statements I've made stressing the importance of the head coach over a quarterback is misleading and purely dishonest...and you know it! When discussing the differences between Tannehill in Miami and Tannehill in Tennessee, you focus on nothing but Tannehill...you focus on players...you point to this player or that player who are having successful careers with other teams ergo, it was all Tannehill.

    This is all you focus on, regardless of how you try to steer your argument and later say that the head coach is the most important piece of a team, because you NEVER lay any blame at the feet of Philbin...you NEVER lay blame at the feet of Gase. Never once have stated any words to the effect of "Philbin/Gase had all of these great players and he just couldn't win because of his offense". Never once!
     
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  17. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    IMO, this is just nonsense. He "developed" into a better QB while not playing from the end of the 2018 season until the second half against Denver in 2019? WTF? How? Explain how. I might give you that IF there were a long string of starts with the Titans where he developed. But, no, his first pass as a starter in Tennessee was a strike to Smith. FIRST PASS AS A STARTER.
     
  18. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, cbrad. This is where you need to put away the stats SW and put the film back on. Go the the FILM to see why the DOLPHINS (not Tannehill) weren't good in 4-minute or 2-minute. I'll give you two great reasons (and not coincidentally you already acknowledged the problems). OL and coaching.

    When your OL cannot block 4 (or sometimes 3) in obvious passing situations, you have no chance as a QB.

    I don't know about you, but when I was watching those teams, I was just waiting for the OL to collapse. They rarely disappointed.
     
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  19. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    Tannehill made Hartline, Bess, and Clay. None of them duplicated their success after they left.
     
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  20. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    LOL "for Tannehill"......


    Pass pressure affects ALL QBs, especially when that pressure is applied without needing to blitz. That is what Tannehill faced for most of his time in Miami. Just admit it. It's okay.

    You can find tons of articles like these about any QB you care to research - https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/tom-brady-couldnt-take-the-pressure/

    upload_2020-12-21_7-22-58.png
    upload_2020-12-21_7-24-37.png

    WHAT?!?!?!?! Brady AND Brees????????? Pressure affecting HOF caliber QBs??????? SAY IT ISN'T SO!!!!!!!!!

    Please repeat the following line to yourself repeatedly until it sinks in:

    every quarterback sees a dramatic decline in performance with onrushing defenders in his face....

    Oh, wait, there is more....

    upload_2020-12-21_7-29-39.png

    upload_2020-12-21_7-32-10.png

    As some of us said FOR YEARS, not all pressure is the same. Getting pressure from just the front 4 is deadly to an offense. Even one run by an all time great QB. Why is this SO HARD for Tannehill detractors to understand???????

    BTW, I wrote the second line above, BEFORE finding this article. It should just be obvious......
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2020
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  21. Patster1969

    Patster1969 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think for RT, the best thing for him was a fresh start and new surroundings, which he has found in Tennessee.
    Not being allowed to audible or move outside the pocket (negating his ability to move) really inhibited him - things like this must handcuff a QB in 2/4 minute offense, as you have to make quick decisions. That was Ryan's major issue in Miami - Marino would have likely just said screw it and done it his way regardless of what Sherman/Philbin said, whereas Ryan was the loyal soldier as he probably wasn't confident enough in his abilities (not something that you can label the greats with).
     
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  22. Cashvillesent

    Cashvillesent A female Tannehill fan

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    Rodgers, Ben, Brees, and even now Mahomes has had really good OL throughout their careers.

    But its cute how he thinks Titans oline is "really good" when he lost Conklin via free agency, lost Lewan since week 6 and their LG has been playing with a bum knee.
     
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  23. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    And this goes to my continuous arguing the importance of coaching. Tannehill’s situation in Tennessee this season isn’t 100% ideal with the OL being banged up like it is and yet the Titans are the highest scoring offense...and Tannehill is ranked as the #4 quarterback in the league.

    Now I’ve always aid and will continue saying football is a team sport. Even if the TEAM situation was ideal in Nashville you could make a faulty argument that Tannehill is benefiting from a perfect situation and yet, his situation is not ideal with the decimation of the offenses most basic unit, the OL and yet the Titans offense and Tannehill himself continue to excel offensively.

    That’s the product of great coaching, something that was poorly lacking during his tenure in Miami.
     
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  24. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    Maybe some improvement, but not night-and-day level. He improved multiple facets of his game every year in Miami, if slowly, so it's nothing new for him...its his norm.

    Totally agree on the confidence thing...he sure as hell looks the part now, more-so than when he was a Dolphin.
     
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  25. Phins_to_Win

    Phins_to_Win Well-Known Member

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    Not to pile on, but if we look back in time at Miami now, I think it goes without saying that the 6 games of elite level play with Tannehill were not an aberration. So essentially, with everything that was wrong with Miami, we were still only a stone's throw away from unlocking THIS Tannehill.

    I mean that should be enough to haunt any fan's dreams.

    Bad coaching, bad game planning, bad free agencies, bad drafts.... the list just keeps going. AND WE WERE STILL THAT CLOSE TO UNLOCKING TANNEHILL.
     
  26. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    There were many reasons why Wallace was not a fit in Miami. There was a reason why Pitt let him go. He was never successful in timing offenses because he ran poor routes, was easily pushed off his routes, had a tiny catch radius, and could not catch with his hands.
     
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  27. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Once again, you deliberately make false statements (a strawman) to try and make a point. I said OL and coaching was subpar. How do you read from that that he had a "perfect" situation. Intellectually dishonest on your part.

    You constantly keep saying "It's ALL on the HC". You even said that in the post I just quoted ("It's all about coaching"). You really need to stop saying that if you don't want people to attack it.

    Right.. maybe you should learn to read first. I mean you did say you stopped reading my post early on because the only person being intellectually dishonest is you. I said right up front that OL and coaching was a problem. So what does the intellectually dishonest TDK do? Yup, just harp on and on about me never referencing coaching. LOL. Serious levels of intellectual dishonesty dude. But knowing you you will have "stopped reading" my post before getting this far.
     
  28. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Nah. Watch the tape. This is less a stats argument than a tape argument even though the stats back it up. I NEVER saw Tannehill get his guys playing "hurry up" properly. Constant time wasting and not being aware of the situation. Sorry dude, a better QB would not have played that poorly in such situations.

    First of all you shouldn't quote an article using ESPN's QBR. It's a black box method that has no credibility. Either way, while it's true that pressure affects all QB's, it doesn't affect them equally. Put Lamar Jackson behind the OL Tannehill faced and you get a different result. There's nothing controversial about what I said. You're trying to create a strawman here of "pressure" vs. "no pressure" when all I said is that pressure affects QB's differently.
     
  29. Cashvillesent

    Cashvillesent A female Tannehill fan

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    Bull****.

    So how do you know all pressure affects QBs differently, when you have no fact to back up this statement. Rodgers, Brees, Ben has had one of the top lines their entire career, so how are you so certain they would have the same effienency with subpar lines?
     
  30. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    omg.. are you serious? You think all humans react equally to the same situations? If you want evidence try this:
    [​IMG]

    That was from 2016. Note that Tannehill has the worst passer rating differential between no pressure and pressure situations. This stuff is obvious dude. That's why in statistics you always assume "random variation". Of course you need to be able to estimate the distribution of that variation, which one can do through data like the above.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2020
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  31. Cashvillesent

    Cashvillesent A female Tannehill fan

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    I call it bull****. I dont care about this stats. You have no evidence of how a QB can be affected by pressure if majority of elite QBs were never put in those situations.
     
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  32. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    I can’t believe 275 pages in, this thread is still going. Clearly no ones mind is being changed at this point.
     
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  33. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Yeah there are too many who have an unhealthy obsession with Tannehill. It's like the tiniest perceived slight sets them off into some kind of attack dog mentality. I can understand why a Titans fan would care but no Dolphins fan should care about this guy, especially when we're in a playoff race with the Titans as one of our competitors.
     
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  34. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    Complete nonsense.

    And ask Lamar Jackson to make plays from the pocket and he produces far far less than Tannehill.

    Or, put Brady in Tannehill's situation and he wouldn't fare very well. Maybe better than Tannehill, but not well enough for it to be good enough. Every game where Brady gets pressure from the front 4 alone has proven that. It is common knowledge.
     
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  35. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    You wouldn't have "pressure" stats on those QB if they were never put under pressure. There are operational definitions people use for those things. Anyway, you believe what you want. That's evidence that QB's (and humans in general) respond differently under pressure. What I said is in no way controversial, it's the default assumption.
     
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  36. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    And yet, here you are.......

    It isn't knocks on Tannehill that sets me off, it is a lack of understanding of the game that does.....
     
  37. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Both of those statements are true, yet have nothing to do with what I said, which is that QB's respond differently under pressure and that for Tannehill a good OL is really important. That graph I showed demonstrates that was true in 2016 at least. You're attacking statements that are highly defensible (including what I said about coaching and OL being the main subpar elements of Tannehill's surroundings).

    No reason to attack me for these things.

    Yeah.. but I'm not attacking people for making highly defensible arguments.
     
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  38. Cashvillesent

    Cashvillesent A female Tannehill fan

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    LOL. Consistent pressure like he has faced in TN and in Miami? Uh no.

    Rodgers and Brees numbers wouldnt been as good if they had bum LTs and LGs....
     
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  39. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Once again you missed the point. There's an operational definition for "pressure" they're using.
     
  40. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Your conclusion that he needs a good oline is kind of an argument starter. You've always refused to acknowledge that pressure stats aren't accurate representations of the actual pressure being applied. Like they don't tell you how much pressure the QBs are feeling due to a blitz, or if the pressure was off of a 3 or 4 man front only. We watched Tannehill deal with pressure from multiple places routinely, without teens having to blitz. That is different than a QB who is feeling pressure from blitzing defensive players.
     
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