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X Extension DONE!

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, Jun 5, 2021.

  1. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    The Rams traded two firsts and a fourth for Jalen Ramsey just two years ago.
     
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  2. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I wouldn't be surprised either way. Trading him makes sense. Restructuring his contract with giving him some more money also makes sense.

    Miami is in a position where letting him go makes sense and keeping him makes sense.
     
  3. Irishman

    Irishman Well-Known Member

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    I guess this qualifies as an "unusual situation". - LOL
     
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  4. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    It is an unusual situation. It is rare that a team signs a player that plays the same position and drafts one in the first round in the same position as their highest-paid player.

    It is even more unusual that the team also has the cap space and despite what the naysayers say, the talent on the team already so that they can afford to use the extra cap space to give that player a raise.

    None of us truly know exactly what X wants or what the Dolphins are offering. X could be trying for $20 million a year or he could be saying that so he can get an extra $3 million a year on his contract or so. Classic negotiations are asking for more than what you actually want. So anything we say about it is just hersay.
     
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  5. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    Everything you said here is on point. It's all spec from our standpoint. We can all read tea leaves but we're probably going to see what we want to see, not what the situation actually is. All we really know is that it's going to play out, one way or another. I'm getting my popcorn ready.
     
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  6. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Here's my ONLY problem with paying him. Yes, what you said is 100% accurate. But what happens when Gisecki wants more money? Or Parker finally has a solid year and wants to cash in? Once you set that trend, it's very hard to keep those contracts on hometown discounts unless you're winning super bowl rings.

    Plus, we're entering year three on a complete roster overhaul and there will be a ton of people in the next few seasons who are expecting raises. And to be honest, many of them 100% deserve more money just as much as X "deserves" a max contract. If you don't offer decent bumps in pay on that second contract though, then we lose a lot of boilerplate talent from role players who have already bought in.

    There's so many variables past "can we afford to give an additional raise?!?" The answer is a lot more complicated if we plan on the perennial playoff contender role.
     
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  7. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    If Gisecki or Parker have one of the best years ever, then I am fine with revisiting. It was more than a solid year. It was one of the best years in the modern era for a cornerback.

    So if Parker or Gisecki have 1,800 and over 10 touchdowns, I am fine with that. I don't think it is that much more complicated. X has been one of the best corners when he has played in the last three years. One of the best of all time. If Parker or Gisecki or any Dolphin player does that, I think they deserve to get paid. And if the Dolphins can afford it, they should be the ones who pay them
     
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  8. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    I keep hearing folks say that once the floodgates open, there will be chaos. Does anybody have any examples of a front office that capitulated to a player's demands and found itself in turmoil when other players followed suit? Most teams don't have players of X's caliber and those who aren't playing at his level would have to have balls of steel to hold out. I'm not suggesting that it hasn't happened, just that it seems like a consideration based more on conjecture than history.
     
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  9. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    You'll notice that the team has smartly tried to mitigate the potential loss of Howard, Gesicki and Parker by signing and/or drafting players at their positions who project to high-level play. That'll allow us to get over potential holdouts but it also reduces their next contracts by reducing their roles. For example, Parker projects anywhere from WR1 to WR3, and Gesicki is surely going to lose targets to Long. Noah isn't ready to replace Howard yet but we drafted him with the intention of being a starter.
     
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  10. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    When he's healthy. How can you justify breaking the bank again on a guy with the injury concerns he has? I dunno. I think he'd have been better off to just play this year and ball out, then push for a renegotiated contract.

    This screams I don't trust my body so I want cash in as much as possible now.
     
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  11. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    That might be part of it. I think the biggest issue for him is the fact that we can walk away from him at the end of the year, saving $35 million with a minimal cap hit. In addition to potentially injuring himself, if he has a less-stellar statistical season, he'll lose leverage for another bite at the apple. IMO, Howard wants some guarantee that he's going to receive most of that money.
     
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  12. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Because Miami has the bank.

    If miami wasn't in the amazing cap situation I would be singing a different tune
     
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  13. Irishman

    Irishman Well-Known Member

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    I think this is probably the closest to the truth.

    This is his last best chance of getting more money!
     
  14. ripper1961

    ripper1961 Active Member

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    If we can get a first round pick for him trade him. Out of a possible 80 games in his career he has started 55. I understand he wants to make money because this could be his last contract. Maybe 15 or 16 db's over 30 in the league don't know how many are starters. This is a big year for this team we don't need the distractions.
     
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  15. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    For one thing, Jalen Ramsey is/was a better player. He's the top NFL CB now and was at the time as well. Xavien Howard cannot claim that. While X gets INTs, he's simply not the overall talent and "lock-down" sort of CB Jalen Ramsey is. Ask any NFL player to name the NFL's best CB and they all say Ramsey without any hesitation. Many names come up as runner-ups: Stephon Gilmore, Xavien Howard, Tre'Davious White, etc but Ramsey is always seen as #1.

    Second, Ramsey was (and still is) a healthier & younger player. Xavien Howard has a chronic knee issue and is about to turn 28 in a week. That means he's a full 3 years older than Ramsey was at the time of Ramsey's trade (25).

    Also, take a moment to consider what kind of player is the best at his position by the age of 25! Along those same lines, Ramsey was a tone-setter in Jacksonville. Xavien Howard is a smart player but he's not really an energetic/forceful leader the way Ramsey is.

    Third, Ramsey was about to negotiate his 2nd deal whereas Xavien Howard is threatening to sit out if his 2nd deal doesn't get re-negotiated.

    In short, Ramsey was better (and ascending into his prime) whereas Xavien Howard is more likely to decline over the next several years assuming his chronic injury doesn't take him out sooner. Moreover, the team trading for Ramsey had the ability to shape his contract how they saw fit.

    IMHO, the Ramsey trade is totally different from any hypothetical Xavien Howard trade and as I said before, if I were a GM I would not be giving away a R1 pick for Xavien Howard.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2021
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  16. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    "He's not a lockdown corner."

    His stats say otherwise.

    https://www.espn.com/blog/miami-dol...r-dolphins-xavien-howard-states-case-on-field

    (Caveat: This was through 13 weeks. Couldn't find one for the full season, but still.)

    At this point, it just seems like you're downplaying Xavien's playing ability.
     
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  17. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    I don't want them to trade him, but if they do, maybe they can trade him to the Texans for their next 13 first round draft picks.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2021
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  18. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    I have thought about this situation all summer. Ultimately, my back and forth has come down to one fundamental question: "Would you make a trade that you could not possibly win at?"

    Unfortunately for us, Bill O'Brien is out of the league, ergo we will never, ever, ever see the Leramy Tunsil trade. Back to reality.

    So let's think about how potential trades would play out.

    1st + mid round pick = Howard is top five at his position. I would say the odds would be extremely low at getting another play even close to as good as Howard. In all honesty, I think the most likely outcome is that we get a decent starter and a role player in this trade.

    Okay, let's think about player for player. These are harder to do, but possible. In fact, we have had a history of being involved in such trades.

    Herein is another problem. Think about positions of need where this would make sense:

    We have so many WRS, TES, DBS, DL, and young OL.

    In my mind, it would only be reasonable to trade for a RB, a C, or a LB.

    Here is the problem with RB. I would love to have an elite RB, but I would hate to have an elite RB contract. Look at most teams that sign a RB to a massive contract. They are trying to get out of it year later.

    C - There were elite Cs available in free agency. We passed. I don't see the point of getting one now but losing Howard. We shoulda just signed one if that was the case.

    LB - I feel like the nickel is the new base, so we may not have dominant LBs, but we are good at the position for reasonable prices. We could get better here, but I think losing Howard would be a bigger loss to our defense.

    Finally, I think that Howard actually changes our W/L record. His turnovers can either take points off the board for our opponents or put points on the board for us depending on field position. In rare cases, those turnovers could be the double bonus, and teams could lose points, and we could gain points. That in of itself is a 10-14 pt swing.

    At the end of the day, I just think that we would look back and think that this trade really hurt the team not helped it.
     
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  19. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    You don't win a trade for a superstar (which I consider X to be). With that said, I wonder if we could trade him for Chandler Jones? Jones would take our LBs to a level that rivals our CBs with Howard. Adding him might mitigate the weakening of our secondary by improving our linebacking corps. Rumors are that Jones wants a new deal from the Cardinals, who have an absolutely trash cornerbacks room. That's as close to a win-win as I can find.
     
  20. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    Of course it wouldn't help the team if he's traded, at least for the near-term...unless Flo is even better than we thought (and I have a massively high opinion of his coaching/teaching). If we lose X, yet stay top 5 in scoring defense and close to the top for 3rd down defense efficiency, its a win in my book.
     
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  21. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    I like the idea of Jones, but I think we could wind up even paying more to a guy who is 31 as opposed to paying Howard more and is only 27.
     
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  22. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Just to be 100% accurate in these discussions, Xavien Howard will actually turn 28 this very Sunday (July 4).

    TBH, I'm not sure age is even as important as time spent playing? He's entering his 6th NFL season. That doesn't seem like too much, but I'm not sure exactly how long most physical CBs last in the NFL.

    Just quickly reviewing Revis' history, he peaked in year 5 (kind of like X just did). Revis then missed the following season with injury before playing another 4 seasons during which he was a solid CB but never what he had been. I'm excluding his final (10th) season in KC where he ultimately ended things.

    Richard Sherman played every game for 6 seasons and was a force for Seattle but over the last 4 years he's only played in 43/64 games with a clear decline in performance.

    Darrelle Revis, Richard Sherman, Vontae Davis, Chris Harris Jr., Aqib Talib, Josh Norman and Antonio Cromartie all lasted about 9-10 seasons as pro's but were really slowing down in the final few years. You can probably add the aging Patrick Peterson to that list as well.

    With Howard already at 5 (and with an injury history), I'm personally very worried that he's not going to last more than 1-2 more seasons as a top CB. He's very likely to be a value in 2021 but a more average player between 2022-2025 given the historical trends we've seen among top CBs.

    Plus, if (or when) Howard loses his burst/speed it could really limit his ability to generate INTs making him a pretty unremarkable player.

    If I'm the Dolphins I look to arrange the $$ so that Howard is happy in 2021 and stays for the sake of continuity and overall roster talent. But if he pushes for guaranteed money beyond 2021 I would seek to trade him away.

    We brought a defensive-minded coach in who we have great confidence can built up a secondary. In 2019, Coach Flores turned some of the least-respected DBs in the NFL into a competent secondary that helped the team win 5 of its final 9 games, and that was with Howard on IR. Ultimately, it'd be nice to keep Howard in the short term but if it can't be done, the Dolphins can definitely survive losing him.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2021
  23. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    Very fair post...appreciate the legwork.
     
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  24. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    This is legitimately one of the best posts I've read on a message board. I cosign to everything in it.
     
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  25. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    This guy claims to be an insider, we will see if that is accurate.
     
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  26. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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  27. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    What is the point of this?
     
  28. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    LOL. Nothing really beyond the Las Vegas shirt. I wouldn't take too much, but I saw a few comments where folks are speculating he's cryptically signalling a desire to go to Vegas. Personally, I just wonder who took the photo and why he chose to post it. Instagram is such an odd concept for me.
     
  29. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    That also could be a Louis Vuitton shirt.
     
  30. Dolphin Dundee

    Dolphin Dundee Well-Known Member

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    See Yah! This is exactly why i'll never buy another NFL Jersey.
     
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  31. Deus ex dolphin

    Deus ex dolphin Well-Known Member

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    A first rounder and a good player would help ease the pain of losing Howard. I'd still rather see them give him another $10 million in guaranteed money and get another season out of him -especially since the offense should be (finally!) good and seeing the defense take a step back at the same time would be so frustrating.
     
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  32. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe. If it is, I hope Louie gets his designing skills back.
     
  33. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    PhinPhanatic.com (Dolphins' FanSided blog) has five trades it would like to see. I listed them below:
    1. Eagles for a 2022 2nd rounder and Derek Barnett
    2. Browns for a 2022 2nd rounder and Kareem Hunt
    3. Cards for a 2022 2nd rounder and Chandler Jones
    4. Saints for a 2022 1st rounder and Will Clapp
    5. Lions for a 2022 2nd rounder and Trey Flowers

    https://phinphanatic.com/2021/06/29...used-a-lot-differently-by-the-miami-dolphins/
     
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  34. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    I’m jumping into this one really late but I’m going to give my point of view, mainly from the point of principle.

    Xavien Howard, FANTASTIC corner. He came to Miami, we signed him to a deal…”x” number of dollars for “x” number of years. The Dolphins have shown no intentions of breaking contract they signed with him. Howard though on the other hand wants to renegotiate his contract. Well, it doesn’t work like that.

    You agreed to the deal. You signed tour name on the dotted line. No one held a gun to your head and forced you to sign it.

    If Howard (or any other player in the league for that matter) chooses to breach their contract, then they should have to pay back all of the money paid to them thus far. The deal was for “x” number of years, not “y”.

    It’s no different than any other business contract
     
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  35. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Business contracts are renegotiated all the time. I just renegotiated a contract last month.
     
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  36. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    I get that. But, as stated multiple times, the organization put themselves in this situation by paying more for Byron Jones. I like Byron Jones. He's a great corner. But he's not as great as Xavien Howard. And when you see someone in your line of work who's not as good as you get paid more, you'd feel some type of way, too.
     
  37. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    The Phins are going to cut or trade X after this season. They'll owe him practically nothing and can get commensurate value in a trade if he plays well. He knows it and that's why he wants a new deal. Come back with the "he signed a contract and needs to live up to it" energy when the other side is the one that breaks the deal.
     
  38. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    Hi agent didn't put in for Skill, CAP or Injury clause per the collective bargaining agreement. Then it would have been guaranteed. If he holds out he's breaking the contract. If they cut him they are not breaking the contract. That's the difference.
     
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  39. Irishman

    Irishman Well-Known Member

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    Did you get a better deal or just took whatever was offered?
     
  40. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I got a better deal. I am saving thousands of dollars.
     
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