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Not saying this will happen but

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by pumpdogs, Jul 8, 2021.

  1. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    If Justin Herbert balls out and Tua busts will Grier get fired?
    Nothing else really to talk about until camp.
     
  2. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    I have been saying for awhile how that decision is certainly a make a break decision for him and it appears it will break him and it should. It was a colossal mistake. I said from the second the pick was made, that it wreaked of a Stephen Ross move and I still feel that way. Either way. it was an incredibly massive mistake. We had him for the taking and instead we took the small. soft armed QB with a history of serious injuries.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2021
  3. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Tough scenario to call since we don't know what "Tua busts" means. He played okay last season and we won 10 games, so if we repeat that path and Tua underwhelms, then I don't think anyone gets fired. We'd just eventually move onto a different QB (probably not until Tua's 4th year).

    Now, if he completely bombs and we win 3 games next year, then maybe we look for a QB and a GM much sooner. But I think it would have to be an incredibly bad season for that to happen and Flores would be out the door as well (since that means the defense regresses, etc.).

    The questionable part comes in if we win 6-8 total games...then what? Follow the plan or start over from scratch? It's an incredibly hard call at that point and I could make arguments either way. So I think the goal for this season is 9+ wins and everyone stays regardless.

    One more thing- Herbert doesn't play into this scenario at all. I don't care how good/bad he plays because we can't control that timeline. You can't punish a GM for liking one player over another and play the "what if" game of who we should have taken instead. It doesn't matter who made that final decision or what percentage falls on Grier...it was a team decision that we have to live with.
     
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  4. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    Have to disagree there.If Herbert excels and Tua busts the media and the fans will never let up how the dolphins passed on Herbert as this will put the franchise back for years.
    The Gm main job is to fine the franchise QB!Without the QB he is a failure in today's NFL.
    Let's just hope Tua thrives!
     
    KeyFin likes this.
  5. Den54

    Den54 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I was under the impression that Tua was hand picked by the owner. That's not to imply that Grier didn't support him but I don't think it will cost Grier his job.
     
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  6. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Tu@ alr3ady !s a bUSt!

    HerB3rt i$ thE BeSt qB 3v3r!
     
  7. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    If you think about it, the draft haul we've brought in the past three years could have been traded for just about any QB on any NFL roster at this time. For instance, we could have moved up for Burrow....or traded for Watson...or maybe even went after Rodgers or Wilson. Heck, we could have signed Brady if we wanted him badly enough.

    The point is, I just don't see this as a Herbert vs Tua conversation. Maybe journalists and some fans will complain about that for decades, but even if Tua turns out to be a complete stud and blows Herbert out of the water, folks will instead complain about us not drafting TJ Watt or Travis Etienne. That's just how it goes when people want to focus on the negatives...there's always something to complain about.

    Personally, I think Tua will have a solid season this year. Maybe he's not top-10 or where some would like to categorize him, but we've added too much talent and he's worked too hard not to show some improvement. Adding Fuller and Waddle completely transforms this offense as well, so I think we'll see guys open all over the place and our boy will find his rhythm quickly.
     
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  8. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    By the way Tua is 1-0 against Herbert.

    [​IMG]
     
  9. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    :lost:
     
  10. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    I felt the entire several years prior to the draft that Herbert was better than Tua. I wanted us to draft him, and I think he has the much higher ceiling between the two players.

    However, that one choice shouldn't break Geier if he's done well in most other areas, which I think that he has. If the Dolphins are a really solid team top to bottom going into the 2022 season with the exception of having a starting QB whos about the 20th best in the league (which I see as the most likely scenario), then we can look to see if we can improve from Tua in the 2023 draft.
     
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  11. VManis

    VManis Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Is 2 years enough time to truly tell for a QB? Mayfield had a good rookie season and then followed it up with a dud in his 2nd year. Allen started out bad his rookie year, and then made some progress his second year. It wasn't really until year 3 that both had shown enough to say they were the long term future of their respective franchises.
     
  12. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Logic doesn't apply here.
     
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  13. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    People are often too quick to judge a lot of things, but especially about QBs. And while I really don't like Mayfield, I think its unfair to blame him for his second season. That team had a head coach who had no business being in that role and the team played wild, reckless football all year long. Take away Mayfield's three worst games as he had a 20/13 TD ratio, which isn't bad for a second year QB. Last year, with a better coach, the whole team played much better.

    The point is, you need to really use the eyeball test and look deeper to see how everyone is doing. Tua's stats might look bad on the surface this coming year when he actually did well in a lot of games. Who knows.
     
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  14. Dorfdad

    Dorfdad Well-Known Member

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    Is he better prospect than what we had? Let’s give TUA his 4 years lots of reasons qb’s blossom early. Coach has done a good job in my opinion let’s let him complete his vision
     
  15. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    I know every fan base has its share of crybabies and Chicken Littles. Every decision is quadruply guessed and every glimmer of hope is written off as a temporary glitch in the matrix. Our fan base is certainly no exception.
     
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  16. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Damn it’s definitely a slow news day
     
  17. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think Tua was the right choice considering how we viewed Herbert at the time of the Draft. I did NOT want to wait another 6-7 years so Ryan Tannehill 2.0 could come in and have us argue over whether he was good enough or not.

    I saw Tua as a more developed QB. Game-to-game it seemed to me Tua was doing more to lead his team which featured what was maybe the best passing offense in college football. I thought he had NFL size/strength so I was for drafting him over Herbert.

    To my eyes, Tua brought more spark/potential and there were too many uncertainties about Herbert when it came to consistency, competition and how much of a leader he'd be in an NFL locker room. By comparison Tua played QB for the most NFL-esque team in college football. He performed as consistently as one could imagine and played great against top-tier opponents.

    When you ask who the "safe" pick was, it was probably Tua. He was the one who you felt you could judge. Herbert was the one with boom/bust potential.

    You could cut up highlights from a single Tua game and it'd look amazing. To make Herbert look like that, you'd have to cut up highlights from the entire season (or maybe his entire career). Again, Tua was the one people trusted. He was the same guy week-in, week-out.

    The only thing that made it close was Tua's injury history. It all came down to the medical evaluation which you have to put in the hands of the doctors/team. A healthy Tua was the consensus pick over a healthy Herbert. Tua's floor was certainly viewed as higher than Herbert.

    It really came down to whether Tua would be healthy and whether the team that drafted him would assemble the right kinds of pieces around him such that they'd achieve the same success as Bama.

    The question was always about how high Tua would ascend, but no one questioned the work ethic he had. That made most people sympathetic to Tua. You can combine that with the fact that the Ducks were so inconsistent against lesser competition and you see why (most) folks favored Tua.

    So looking forward, if Tua were to bust and Herbert were to thrive I can still look back and say I made the right decision at the time which is the only thing that's fair to evaluate.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2021
  18. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    The dolphin fan base has every right to cry.How many NFL franchises haven't won a playoff game in 20 years?
     
  19. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think what he's talking about--at least as I watch it--is how Dolphins fans/media, which are desperate for something to cling to, have a tendency to over-react. Everything feeds back onto itself.

    Without the right team/coaching, we never saw the best of RT17. But he also never looked like Aaron Rodgers which meant the team around him sometimes had to carry him. That puts pressure on the coaches, players and team-builders. Ultimately, we end up over-hyping certain guys who are good but not necessarily great (e.g. Jarvis Landry, Reshad Jones, etc.). At the same time, we're too hard on other guys (e.g. DVP).

    At the end of the day it's a team game and it's hard to put it all together. The Dolphins are closer to doing that than they've probably ever been in my time as a fan. The GM, HC, QB and DEF all look solid. That's really never been the case here before (since I started watching in the mid-00s). We were always complaining about some piece in the puzzle and how the rest wasn't good enough to compensate.

    I for one am very excited to see how this next season goes. I think it'll be tough because of the competition but I also think the team has a real chance to pull out some surprising victories and maybe even make it into the Play-offs with some momentum.
     
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  20. Den54

    Den54 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Sooo true.
     
  21. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    In year 3 of any rebuild its playoffs or its a total failure at least for me.Especially after a 10 win season.
    I fully expect an 11 win plus season.
     
  22. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    That's an interesting perspective. I don't know that we have a lot of regular posters who began as a fan in that era. For me, and I think a lot of others, most of the past 17 years or so has just been waiting for the "good old days" to come back.
     
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  23. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I 'USED TO' think that way, but I'm so tired of tear downs and rebuilds my main goal is to keep the same coach/GM in charge for 5+ seasons. Like Greg said, Tannehill really was "the guy"...we just never saw the full picture because of outside factors.

    At the same time though, we can't say "we won 10 last year and added x, y, and z, so this season should be 11+ wins easy." We all know that's not realistic in the salary cap era....10 wins is never a given. But that goes back to my earlier point of keeping the same front office and the same core players- the less that changes, the better chance you have of repeating the same success. Players get more familiar with the system and the people, etc....that's a very big deal and we haven't had it in decades.

    For that reason alone, I think Flores/Grier are virtual locks for the next few years unless we just have a complete team collapse.
     
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  24. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    ^^^ Yes, I'm saying this.

    But I'm also saying that writing off a QB who came off of a debilitating injury during a year without regular offseason activities and installations is ridiculous. I can't say that Tua will be a stud. But he was a stud in college and he flashed last season in tough circumstances. Suggesting that we missed out on Herbert for a "bust" is childish because the "bust" hasn't manifested.

    Last season was a good season but it wasn't successful. This year holds promise. Looking at other teams and wishing we did something that made them better is engaging in hindsight. I'll wait for Tua to fail before I call him a failure.
    [​IMG]
     
  25. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Of course it's ridiculous...there's no reason to even debate that. Tua will play better this season or he won't, but it's way too early for all of this noise. Yet every season, that's exactly what we get from a select few who think every rookie QB should throw for 5 TD's and 600 yards in their very first start.

    We've literally heard this stuff from his first NFL snap...why is that noise any different today?
     
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