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Dolphins get over the 85% goal

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Finatik, Jul 9, 2021.

  1. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    You know, just read through the entire thread. Look at the responses from yourself, and others that agree with you. The responses to me are belittling, condescending, etc. So, I go read and watch videos from mainstream and not mainstream sources. I see the information that the not mainstream presents, and I go look in the mainstream, to see what they say. They almost universally don't address this things. How many mainstream reports are you seeing on myocarditis? How many are you seeing on blood clots? Those two things have been WELL KNOWN for getting close to a year. But our mainstream ignores it, and tells us there's nothing to worry. Go ahead, vaccinate your children. Nothing to worry about.

    I'm sorry, I do think there are things that very concerning. Honestly, I don't really like talking about this stuff, because I know the responses I'm going to get. But, then again, I think there is truth here that people need to be aware of.

    Peace.
     
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  2. Den54

    Den54 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Preach.
     
  3. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

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    Of course people are going to strongly react to dangerous misinformation and links to hate filled conspiracy theories websites. You have fallen down a very unfortunate hole and I would assume you are too smart for that but social media bubbles are strong. Hopefully you and those around you don't suffer for it and stay safe from covid.

    If this was something stupid like the earth is flat then yeah we would all be having a laugh but its a little more serious. Things that aren't factual do tend to not get mainstream science attention. Its the way it goes.
     
  4. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    This argument at it's core comes down to two "belief systems" for lack of a better word- those who believe the US government will tell us everything that's in our best interests, and those who don't.

    Obviously we know the govt. keeps secrets. For example, what's in Area 51? Or how much gold is actually in Ft. Knox? The public has no idea because there's no ironclad proof that we can turn to from a trusted person or organization. Maybe we have theories pointing to one thing or another, but it's very important that we realize opinions or educated guesses are not fact. The problem with the web these days is that whatever I believe in, I can find thousands of others who believe the exact same thing. Over time, those opinions from like-minded people start to feel like facts and we end up exactly where this conversation is today.

    With COVID, I'd like to believe that the US and the world health organizations are giving us the best possible information- but I do not know that as a fact. I think my vaccine was relatively safe, but again...I got there off of personal research and my current life circumstances. I've said many times here that I think Resnor is 100% wrong, but he is my friend from years of conversations (on and off-site) and I do respect his opinion. Because that's the thing, we both have opinions...I can't say that it's a 100% proven fact that he is wrong.

    And to clarify, I think it's a fact that vaccines greatly reduce the severity of COVID...but that's not Resnor's argument here. He's saying that because we don't know the long-term effects of the vaccines, they're potentially dangerous. That's it, that's the whole story, so please stop accusing him of buying into wild conspiracy theories and misinformation. I don't think that's the case at all here.
     
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  5. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    What he said.

    The mainstream media backed up the doubt about the vaccine when it was Trump's vaccine. Biden and Harris both said they would be skeptical of a "trump" vaccine. Our governor in California and the POS in NY both said they were going to have independent commissions on if they vaccines were safe. As soon as Trumps out, they're all good to go with it. What happened to the independent commissions? The media was complacent in this as they has trump derangement syndrome. Now they don't even ask the question to the power brokers "Do you think your stances early on were part of the problem that has lead to vaccine hesitancy?". The "mainstream" media and big tech perpetrated the lie that hydroxychloroquine and zinc combination does nothing, even blocking anyone that had something different to say. Many, many doctors quietly kept prescribing this combo as they were seeing actual results. What is being referred to as mainstream isn't like it used to be where the press was independent. Where research results were independent. Now if its not approved by the current administration they work with search engines and social media platforms to prevent that message. That is a fact that they have admitted to. So where do you go to get "alternative" insights into a topic. Hence the sites that some are labeling as what I one might call crackpot. It's the last vestige of free speech. And this is way more scary then Covid.
     
  6. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

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    It may not be the case but he sure is going out of his way to make it look that way.
     
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  7. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Even this argument isn't based on science. Basically every single time you see long term effects of vaccines they show up within several weeks or a month or so after injection. When the US introduced the original oral polio vaccine it accidentally gave some people polio (about 1 in 2.4 million people that got the injection), but that happened within a month or so after injection. Same thing with all the side effects you see reported from COVID vaccines. The clotting disorder with the AstraZenica vaccine (about 1 in 100,000 individuals vaccinated) occurred within 2 weeks of vaccination. And the myocarditis with the Pfizer vaccine (about 1 in a million) occurred within a few weeks of vaccination.

    Vaccines aren't like normal medications that you take repeatedly. They're injected once or twice and that's it so it usually doesn't take long to see side effects. There's really no cost-benefit analysis that suggests not getting vaccinated is a good idea once you take into account the probability of death with COVID and/or it's long-term side effects (far more prevalent than from the vaccine).

    Oh, and the success rate of these vaccines is amazing. You usually don't see 90%+ decreased risk of infection. That is WAY better than most vaccines. For example, the flu vaccine is only ~50% effective.
     
  8. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

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    This is why we need to reinstate the Fairness Doctrine.
     
  9. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

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    There has been plenty of coverage of the few cases of Myocarditis perhaps being caused by vaccine and lots of reports on how frequently children who get COVID, especially the Delta Variant are having it. And it's not the vaccine causing the myocarditis directly but kids getting COVID or it's symptoms from the vaccine. So as a parent I have to choose. I understand the risks of vaccines, no one who is paying attention does not. They are real. But the monster they keep from my child is WAY scarier and WAY more likely to kill my babies, so they get all the shots.

    To be honest I'm way more worried about sending my wife and kids off to a public school every day, they have a better chance of being killed by gun than any other threat they face. They come up with a vaccine for that I'll load up a truck full of them and stab every mother lover I can with it.
     
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  10. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Remember, I agree with you here- I'm fully vaccinated and was of the first in line once I was eligible. However, even with the evidence you provided above, that's not concrete, undeniable proof that there's no long-term side effects.
     
  11. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I completely agree- it's terrifying that we have news that caters to people who believe this, that or the other thing. I sometimes feel like it will be the downfall of democracy since the media is so hell-bent on placing us into nice, tidy little groups. As an independent thinker, I absolutely refuse to listen to any of that garbage that tells me to hate someone because they might have different opinions.

    It may seem like my agenda here was simply to defend Resnor (which I was), but I really hate the mainstream media that much these days. News and journalism by definition should be unbiased and let readers/listeners make their own judgements.
     
    resnor likes this.
  12. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    What does that have to do with anything? You don't have "concrete, undeniable proof" there aren't long term effects to ANYTHING. You could live 50 years with no symptoms and you can still say there is no "concrete, undeniable proof" there are no long-term effects. That's a ridiculous argument.

    Point is, with vaccines you're dealing with something other than regular medication use. In essentially every case you see the effects weeks or a month or two after. That doesn't rule out this one being different, but you'll find no science backing up the idea you have to wait years before deciding a vaccine is safe.
     
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  13. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    That has EVERYTHING to do with it, because each of us personally decides the risk/reward factor. What seems like common sense to you may sound ridiculous to someone else.

    For example, I think people that skydive, people that train lions and tigers, and so many other types of adrenaline junkies are completely insane for the stuff that they do. For them, it's just a normal Tuesday. We can't solve that equation of acceptable risk because the variable is different for each of us.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2021
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  14. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Cbrad, come on man. We have no idea what the long term health effects of these injections are. We do know, however, that the VAERS reporting is off the charts as compared to any previous year.
     
  15. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Like I said, it has NOTHING to do with it if you use evidence based reasoning. There's no science behind this idea of saying we need to wait years to see the long term effects of vaccines if you base your decision on everything that's happened with vaccines in the past.

    You're right it has everything to do with it for anti-science people. But I qualified my original post saying that this was about science, not the anti-science viewpoint you're suggesting has merit right now.
     
  16. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Really? Here's the current data:
    https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html

    0.0036% of people dying from COVID vaccines, and that's with the qualifier that it's not even clear the vaccine was the cause of death. That is NOT "off the charts".
     
  17. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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  18. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Do so yourself. I just gave you the link!!!!
     
  19. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    There are more deaths associated with these injections than pretty much every vaccine given over the past 20 years combined.
     
  20. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    100 percent true!
     
  21. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    That's mostly because the vaccine has been given to orders of magnitude more people than most vaccines. Right now it's 3.67 billion doses total, so at least half that number of people. In the US it's 338 million doses. You need to interpret VAERS properly. VAERS does NOT tell you that the vaccine caused the death. It just reports deaths following vaccine administration. There are many false reports and even some hilarious ones (there was one report of the flu vaccine turning a person into an Incredible Hulk lol). These things aren't vetted, and usually research afterwards shows many of the deaths were likely due to other causes.

    Either way, even taken at face value, 0.0036% chance of death is extremely small. That's 1 in 27,778 chance of dying. Compare that to the 1 in 60k-80k chance of dying from a lightning strike. You're not looking at a serious risk factor here.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2021
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  22. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    You understand how many vaccines are administered every year, right? For 08-09, there were 110 million flu vaccines administered in the US, and it only goes up every year from there. There are millions of vaccines administered each year to children on their normal vaccine schedule. So, I don't agree with you that this vaccine is orders of magnitude greater. With all those millions of vaccines being administered each year in the United States, these covid injections are associated with more deaths in VAERS than all of the other vaccines administered in America, combined, for the past like 20 years.
     
  23. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I also think it's interesting, you're arguing that these injections are safe, because there's only a small chance of death. Yet, when I point out that under 70 years of age, covid has a 99.97% survival rate, that is somehow unimportant. Why do I need to get an injection for something that at worst has a .03% chance of killing me?
     
  24. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Yeah that's why I said "most vaccines". Flu vaccine is obviously an exception, but with most vaccines you never reach billions of doses.

    It's an order of magnitude higher if you look at confirmed cases. I think for 40-60 year olds (not sure how old you are) it's between 0.1% and 1% deaths of confirmed cases depending on country. Regardless, even if you go with 0.03% chance (which is an underestimate), that means you're still 10 times more likely to die from COVID than from administration of the vaccine. And with the more realistic estimates that's probably more like 50-100 times more likely to die from the disease. Cost-benefit analysis is clearly towards vaccination.
     
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  25. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

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    And thats only talking about deaths. Let's talk about the long term effects of COVID. I'd say the risk reward correlation is even greater when you factor in the .0034 chance of dying with the chances/risks of long term effects from actually catching CVD vs long term effects of the vaccine.
     
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  26. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Yeah it goes even further than that. Vaccines prevent or limit replication of the virus which means that from a purely mechanistic point of view they should reduce viral transmission. Those studies take time to do (except in animals where that's been clearly shown), but a few are starting to come out. Here's one that shows vaccinated individuals reduce odds of transmission of COVID by around half (looking at close to 1 million household contacts in the UK):
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8262621/

    Most of their data is in the link at the bottom to the Supplementary material. Note this graph showing the odds ratios for contacts becoming a secondary case (i.e., odds of transmission) compared to unvaccinated individuals. The odds start to drop after 2 weeks:
    Screen Shot 2021-07-22 at 8.58.11 AM.png

    So if you care about others and not just yourself, the cost-benefit analysis for vaccination is even greater. Furthermore, if you aren't vaccinated and care about reducing the likelihood someone else will transmit to you, you should also be in favor of others getting vaccinated.
     
  27. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    There are hundreds of millions administered each year in the United States. The covid injections have surpassed the total reported deaths in VAERS for every vaccine administered in the US for the past 20 years combined.

    They pulled the vaccine for swine flu in '76 after 32 deaths. Typically 50 deaths associated with a vaccine gets it pulled.
     
  28. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    What about long term effects of lung and heart damage from spike proteins causing blood clots? Myocarditis? There are many long term effects from these that we just don't know.
     
  29. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

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    • Reports of death after COVID-19 vaccination are rare. More than 339 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through July 19, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 6,207 reports of death (0.0018%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it’s unclear whether the vaccine was the cause. Reports of adverse events to VAERS following vaccination, including deaths, do not necessarily mean that a vaccine caused a health problem. A review of available clinical information, including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records, has not established a causal link to COVID-19 vaccines. However, recent reports indicate a plausible causal relationship between the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine and TTS, a rare and serious adverse event—blood clots with low platelets—which has caused deaths.
     
  30. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    It's been widely reported that VAERS reporting is only 1-10% of the actually adverse reactions.
     
  31. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    There are very few vaccines that are administered in hundreds of millions of doses. Without looking it up I'd be surprised if vaccines for yellow fever, anthrax (not even widely available), meningococcal disease, and a bunch more are administered to hundreds of millions of people. There are a lot of vaccines dude, and if they're not administered in similar doses you can't compare total reported deaths.

    Regardless, even with VAERS for the COVID vaccine taken at face value, your chance of dying from COVID is 10x times that of dying from the vaccine, and as I pointed out if you look at confirmed cases it's actually higher. Cost-benefit analysis => take vaccine.

    EDIT: btw, just looked up the anthrax vaccine. That thing caused adverse reactions in 85% of people that took it when the military used to administer it to select units. That's with relatively small sample size. Think about what would be the case with billions of doses where you have so many comorbidities, i.e., where people have other diseases that make it more likely they'll die. This is why you can't just compare total reported deaths for vaccines given to huge numbers of people and vaccines given only to those at most risk.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2021
  32. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

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    Widely reported?

    And why are you assuming all of those cases are caused by the vaccine?
     
  33. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Yeah I think it was Harvard that did the study.

    VAERS is for reporting negative affects after receiving a vaccine.
     
  34. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    These injections are not vaccines. A vaccine gives immunity.

    In 08-09 there were 110 million flu shots administered in the United States. It goes up every year following. Millions of children receive vaccines every year. All those combined for the past 20 years don't have as many associated deaths as 8 months of covid injections in the United States.
     
  35. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

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    “FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it’s unclear whether the vaccine was the cause. Reports of adverse events to VAERS following vaccination, including deaths, do not necessarily mean that a vaccine caused a health problem.”
     
  36. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Resnor you're unbelievable. Your anti-fact crusade has no bounds. Now you're claiming the yellow fever vaccine isn't a vaccine because it doesn't provide immunity. Yet everyone interested in facts (unlike you) will tell you it provides immunity to about 99% of individuals within 30 days. The anthrax vaccine provides effective immunity for around 90% of individuals, but your anti-fact crusade forces you to dismiss even basic facts like that and claim it doesn't.

    Seriously man.. THAT is the equivalent of saying the Earth is flat. You're simply anti-fact, not just anti-science.
     
  37. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    By definition, a vaccine gives immunity.

    Covid injections specifically do NOT give immunity. They are supposed to reduce symptoms.
     
  38. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I understand what gets reported. Try to understand, VAERS is a the only place to report.

    Only around 1-10% gets reported.
     
  39. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

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    But so what? Do you take that as evidence that X number of people died? Or are you just saying we don't know?
     
  40. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Once again false. The WHO points out the distinction:
    In other words, a vaccine is not guaranteed to provide immunity. It just stimulates the process that can lead to immunity.
     

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