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Are we seeing history repeat itself?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by tirty8, Jul 30, 2021.

  1. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    Whether it be good or bad in the long term, I can tell you one thing that stands true about Brian Flores. He wants to win every, single game. I cannot remember a head coach like him. I really think he genuinely puts in the players that he thinks best gives the team a chance to win.

    Last season, we traded for Matt Breida and gave Jordan Howard a big contract. Breida barely played, and Howard was gone before the season concluded. Gaskin looked the best in camp, and guess who won the job.

    Tua was the fifth pick in the draft and is the future of the team. Did Flores hesitate to pull him from games in which he played poorly? Not at all. Honest to God, I really think if Reid Sinnett was balling out in camp, he would be our starter.

    Now, I know it is early, but from all reports, Albert Wilson is looking great.

    Now if you would have asked me a week ago, what I thought was going to happen with Wilson, I would have told you that Parker, Fuller, and Waddle were locks. Bowden was very likely to make the squad because he is young and we used a decent pick to get him. I would have said that Williams sticks because he is young and cheap. Our last WR spot would go to Grant or Hollins for special teams play. We would try and deal Wilson, cut him, and there is an outside chance that he would have just played week 1 while Fuller was suspended then would have been cut.

    A few things to consider. Wilson is undersized and brought in with Gase and Tannehill in a time in which Gase was obsessed with WR screens (fun times, remember). I never thought that Wilson was a match with Tannehill. RT threw catchable passes but was never a pinpoint guy. I always wanted bigger "radius guys" for him. Look and see what Tennessee has done with Brown and now Jones.

    Tua does not have the arm talent RT has, but he is that pinpoint "ball placement" QB. I think one of Tua's biggest problems is that he does not see NFL WRs as open. Jim Miller often retells his own personal struggles as an NFL passer. He said, he would tell his coaches nobody was open, and his coaches would tell him that "college open" and "NFL open" are not the same thing. I could tell that Tua was not as comfortable in throwing the ball to Parker as Fitzmagic was. Fitzmagic really was the only guy to toss 60-40 balls up to Parker and let him make plays on the ball. That is when we saw the best of DVP.

    Wilson is really good at getting separation, and I think Tua will see him open... AND, this is important, throw those placement passes that will lead Wilson into turning upfield and getting those sweet, sweet RAC yards.

    I really would not be shocked if there is some sorta shakeup in the WR depth charts and Parker or Fuller may not have the role we once thought they may have.

    *Side note - I do not think the shake up would affect Waddle. It sounds like he has looked really good.
     
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  2. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    Its very depressing to think about yes.
     
  3. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I personally find that refreshing- the best man deserves the job regardless of age or draft position.
     
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  4. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'm really not sure why there were people writing off Albert Wilson as though he wasn't one of the better play-makers the Dolphins had at WR. He's not as fast as Jaylen Waddle but he's got great hands and is very quick. We've seen him create big plays and in the final year of Gase/Tannehill he was really one of the better WRs the team had.

    In 2018 he only played 7 games but he amassed 391 yards, a 15.0 Y/R average and had 4 TDs. And remember, he had a few years in KC where he flashed that same potential. Had he stayed healthy, he might've been a 1,000-yd receiver or had something like 8-10 TDs.

    He kind of disappeared the following year coming back from injury but it was understandable given that Miami was tanking. That was also a year featuring Ryan Fitzpatrick, a QB who prefers throwing deeper and more to the outside where big WRs like Preston Williams and DeVante Parker can make contested catches.

    Then of course Wilson sat out last year. I'm not sure what prompted him to do that but I can understand why some people might've forgotten about him entirely. But those who were writing him off were (I think) forgetting just how good he was back in 2018.

    Maybe some people thought Wilson would get traded for a future pick now that Waddle and Bowden were in the fray? I understand the idea that the WR position is crowded and that maybe Miami might want to exchange some of that for future draft assets, but the idea that other WRs were going to out-play Albert Wilson was ignorant. Quite frankly, until Waddle proves himself to be a capable NFL player, Albert Wilson is really the best interior guy Miami has. He's more capable than Bowden (when healthy).

    Wilson appears to be a good fit for what Miami is looking for. He's not totally dissimilar to other guys on the roster like Waddle, Fuller and Foster who are all kind of smaller-but-fast.

    Here's my 6:

    Outside: Parker
    Outside: Fuller
    Outside: Williams or Hollins

    Inside: Wilson
    Inside: Waddle
    Inside: Bowden
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2021
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  5. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I don't think people were "writing him off" as much as we know you have to have a variety of receivers for different situations. Preston, Gisecki and Devante for their catch radius are a great combo. Grant and Wilson are similar players for their speed/agility and once we added Fuller and Waddle, it feels like a pretty packed "speed group". There almost has to be an odd man out you'd think and since Wilson didn't play last year, a lot expected that he wouldn't return to camp in football shape.

    Obviously that opinion has already been proven wrong, but it doesn't change the fact that we probably won't keep everyone. Maybe Grant stays specifically for special teams and makes the roster...I hope so at least since I love watching him.
     
  6. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    Nearly 70% of his yardage in 2018 came on just four plays. The rest of the time, he just didn't do much. In 2019, he was basically invisible until the last three games, when Fitz was throwing the ball short on every play and he caught a number of dump offs.

    Wilson is almost like a big play punt or kick returner on offense. You might get a big YAC play out of him every so often, but he's just not proven to be a guy that you can rely on to make the regular play, basically ever. It's all screen passes and trick plays.
     
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  7. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You could criticize Jaylen Waddle for being the same type of player though.

    The fact Miami used the #6 pick to draft Waddle while going out and signing the speedy duo of Fuller and Foster indicates they're looking to stock up on WRs who have the athleticism to get open and create with the ball in their hands.

    Preston Williams is really just Brian Hartline. He makes what look like impressive grabs despite being covered and then goes right to the ground. I think Miami is looking to steer the ship away from that kind of player and more towards the Fuller, Waddle, Wilson type guy.
     
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  8. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    I'm certainly not doing anything to prop up the selection of Waddle, trust me.

    Its funny that you bring up Hartline. I loved how the team used him in 2013 and 2014. He was just limited as an athlete, and they needed a better player. So when they drafted Parker in 2015, my dream was that he would be used in very much the same way, but be a bigger, better, and more productive version. If Hartline could go 75/1000 in back to back years, then Parker could surely go 90/1300 if he was used the same way.

    But they've never used him that same way. They've wasted him, year after year, with only glimpses of what he could be. And other than big plays, most of his productive games have been when they've let him basically play the way Hartline used to.
     
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  9. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think everyone would like to have a Deandre Hopkins or Julio Jones but the problem is that Miami never found that type of player. DeVante Parker might look somewhat like those guys but he's not even close when it comes to quickness and route-running. He'll never be as open as those guys are week-in, week-out. Plus, he's probably not as motivated as those guys given his history of sitting out. I loved Jarvis Landry's attitude but at the same time, he wasn't a dominant player because he didn't have the athleticism of an OBJ or a Julio Jones.

    You can only pick and choose who you have to a certain degree. You can try for this or that type of player but in the end, you just have to build an offense around who you have. I wouldn't have any problem rooting for a team with Derrick Henry and Ryan Tannehill but that's not who Miami has.

    And if Miami is shopping for FAs, I'd prefer they collect guys who are athletic without breaking the bank. They've done that with Will Fuller and Albert Wilson. Retaining Devante Parker isn't bad but he's not the player we hoped he'd be and that has nothing to do with play-calling. He's a better-than-average outside WR who's happy winning 50/50 balls. But that's not an offense by itself or a style you can build around in 2021. In the 1980s he would've been a great weapon to have, LOL.
     
  10. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    Well, I never said that Parker was as good as those guys. Nor that he should be used in the exact same way. But do you think that Parker would be able to play a similar style to what Hartline did over those years? I really don't see why not. And if so, do you think that he would have likely been better at it, and more productive in general?

    But instead, the team (under Gase) used him on deep routes and screen passes most of the time, unless it was a 2-minute drill (during which he often excelled). Because Gase is a dolt, and tries to make everything a big play, rather than work down the field gradually.
     
  11. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think you probably overrate both players. Objectively, Brian Hartline wasn't that good and DeVante Parker has been an under-achiever. So pick your poison.

    Looking at Hartline's 5 core seasons (76 gms) in Miami under Sparano/Philbin we get this:

    57% catches
    14.0 Yd/R
    8.0 Yd/Tgt

    6.1 Tgt/gm
    49.2 Yd/gm
    0.12 TD/gm

    Looking at Parker's 3 seasons (39 gms) under Gase we get:

    60% catches
    12.6 Yd/R
    7.5 Yd/Tgt

    5.9 Tgt/gm
    44.2 Yd/gm
    0.15 TD/gm


    They were slightly different players of course with somewhat different skillsets but both played with Ryan Tannehill and achieved about the same thing. If you want to tell me Adam Gase sucks as an OC worse than the guys we had under Sparano and Philbin I think you're probably biased. Tannehill actually had better production and efficiency under Gase.

    Parker was a massive disappointment though. He only started about 50% of the time in the Gase years and only played in about 75% of the games he could've.

    Hartline was certainly more reliable but as you point out, a less spectacular player, too. Hartline over-achieved to become an average dude. Parker disappointed to become a slightly above-average dude.

    To me, there's not much difference. You can't win much if you're featuring either guy.
     
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  12. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    In my opinion, Hartline was a much smoother route runner who maximized his potential. Parker is an average route runner with off-the-charts talent. He's clearly superior to Hartline in every possible way except for work ethic and toughness.

    If I had to choose one of the two in their prime, I'd honestly take Hartline.
     
  13. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Yeah, it's one of those things that's kind of pointless to debate. If I'm throwing a quick out on 3rd-and-10, I probably want Brian Hartline. But he's also a guy with literally 2 decent seasons in which he was over-targeted and who's lack of value can be summed up in the fact he almost never scored any TDs and who washed out of the NFL almost immediately once Miami let him go. Even as a massive disappointment, Parker has still probably contributed to more actual wins than Hartline.

    I was always a big Davone Bess advocate. If you go back and watch the tape, he looked really good. He and Hartline were a real nice combo for about 2 years but neither WR could stay relevant once they ventured outside Miami.

    What I liked about Hartline and Bess was that they both caught the ball. I think we all got used to having a couple ultra-reliable WRs for awhile. Since then, we've had guys who've disappointed for one reason or another. Mike Wallace always seemed like a bad fit and a weird sort of WR in his own right. Parker never stayed healthy and was a sloppy WR in general. Landry got too big for his britches and too expensive. Stills was never really the impact player we imagined. I thought Rishard Matthews might be a dude but after 1 good season in Tennessee he called it a career.
     
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  14. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    3, 6, 6, 5, 8. Those were the catches per game for Waddle last year. The three was the championship game were he came back way early from his injury and played hurt. All the others were against SEC schools.. He averged 21 yards per reception too. If he didn't get hurt he would have been first non QB off the board and might have bumped a QB back. The Dolphins might have had to stay at 3 to get him. It wouldn't have been fair criticism of Waddle last year.
     
  15. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, Hartline, Bess and Camarillo....they were all solid, dependable receivers that showed up, caught the ball and played hard. Those types of blue-collar receivers are ultimately what makes a team since they're dependable depth- it just so happened that those few years had them as our starters.

    Bess has a full mental breakdown after he left Miami- I'm not sure if that was mental health or drug related, but he was really "out there" in his thinking for a stretch of time. I caught this quote from him a few months ago though so it sounds like he's doing well these days-

    “Life is about ebbs and flows and just the emotional roller coaster it puts on you because I wanna say the last two or three years, I’ve really been in a really, really good space mentally, physically, spiritually, emotionally, and I worked to get there. It didn’t just happen overnight, it was a process."
     
  16. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Yeah, I'm not an expert but I had heard he went crazy after joining the Browns.

    As far as the blue-collar guys go, I don't mind them being no-names and unsung guys but they have to play. I'm done with rooting for guys who just flat out aren't very good. I don't mind rooting for above-average players like Baker, Wilkins, etc. You don't have to be an All-Pro. But I don't want to sit here and defend some of the guys we've had to pull for over the years. I like that this regime seems willing to let go of guys who aren't exceptional value: Raekwon McMillan, Kyle Van Noy, Bobby McCain, etc.
     
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