1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Flores is exposed

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by pumpdogs, Oct 10, 2021.

  1. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

    3,040
    2,485
    113
    Nov 11, 2016
    What you just said is hogwash. Herbert had the worst offensive line in the league last year, and he still lit it up and won ROY.

    Herbert would be able to do a whole lot more with this offense if he was here. Tua and Herbert don't even belong in the same conversation anymore. Herbert can thrive even when conditions aren't perfect, while Tua needs everything to be perfect around him in order to succeed.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2021
    canesz06, Sceeto, pumpdogs and 2 others like this.
  2. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

    5,185
    2,907
    113
    Sep 22, 2009
    delaware
    https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0g...rankings/RK=2/RS=xRMPjG6C7mVS0mOs3jkjsVHZlqQ-
    Here you sport.Go look where the chargers were ranked last year and yet he won rookie of the year.This guy is physically superior and would thrive under pressure and actually knew the playbook.Its early but now he has a shot at mvp.
     
    canesz06 and Sceeto like this.
  3. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

    3,893
    3,087
    113
    Mar 6, 2010
    And their GM was smart enough to go get a FA impact C and draft one of the most talented lineman in this years draft.

    Linsley is ranked 5th and Slater is ranked 7th. How much better would this team be if we had one of the best OT’s in the game, an additional 1st round pick(ours that might be top 5-10) and solidified the C position? Hell, don’t even pay Linsley, just keep Karras who was serviceable.
     
    Sceeto likes this.
  4. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    10,488
    12,821
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    This isn't the scenario a lot of you are playing out- you guys need to realize that we started the season playing four very solid football teams and the Colts. We choked on the Colts, plain and simple. But the Bills, Raiders and the Bucs were just better teams.

    I still think the sky isn't falling. We need our line to mature and Tua needs quality reps. Yesterday the defense looked lousy, but we also have to frame it on who we were playing. Brady is one of the best. So is Antonio Brown. Tampa is a stacked team with very few weaknesses (their secondary) and Brissett did what he could. But I really think Tua would have carved that defense up yesterday. We wouldn't have won but still...it would have made a difference.

    Give this team a few more weeks as they hit the easier part of our schedule. Things will level out some and we will see some hope.
     
    The_Dark_Knight likes this.
  5. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

    5,185
    2,907
    113
    Sep 22, 2009
    delaware
    I agree as either Grier can't draft lineman or Flores can't get the right coaches to teach these guys.
    My point is this guy still thrived with the worst line in the nfl and we will be haunted by this missed pick for decades just like missing on Rodgers,Brees,Ryan.I hope I am wrong but I think Tua will be out of the league in 3 years.
     
    mlb1399 likes this.
  6. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

    1,461
    1,234
    113
    Dec 29, 2013
    Raiders are frauds
     
  7. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

    8,565
    3,821
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    Powell, WY

    And when they don't...will you admit Flores has crapped the bed?
     
  8. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

    5,185
    2,907
    113
    Sep 22, 2009
    delaware
    If all we can beat is the bottom dwellers than what was the point of this rebuild?
     
    Sceeto and Rick 1966 like this.
  9. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

    3,893
    3,087
    113
    Mar 6, 2010
    I think the point of any rebuild is finding a franchise QB which we don’t have. Outside of a handful of teams, everyone else is fighting for playoff spots that won’t matter because that don’t have the QB to get them over the hump.

    I do think we beat LV with Tua. Indy, might be a different story but it’s hard to win a game when you fumble a punt and basically spot the other team a TD.

    I still contend that most fans would have had us 2-3 wins at this point and I think we’re basically there if we had our starting QB. It’s sucks getting blown out by two of the best teams in football but I had no delusions that we were gonna be at their level.

    At this point, we have to let this season play out to make a decision on Flo. Grier needs to be shown the door today. This team is 3-2 with Herbert and even a mid tier LT.
     
  10. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    10,488
    12,821
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    Look, there's definite problems with the coaching- I'm not trying to say any different. But this team has also started out horrible and improved each year under Flores. I don't think it will be shocking when we bounce back and look like a decent team once again.
     
  11. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    10,488
    12,821
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    I was more against this rebuild than any member here and I was very vocal about it, so I can't answer that question for you. But I will say the exact same thing I said three years ago- firing the coach/GM makes zero sense unless you know where they went wrong.

    In other words, there's very little difference in my mind of Sparano, Philbin, Campbell, Gase and Flores...all five of them ultimately delivered around 8-8 teams. There are some traits I liked in each of them and Flores is my favorite of the bunch, but it has to equate to wins. Before we move on, we need to fully understand what's not working with Flores or the front office or the scouting...whatever.

    We can't just blindly say, "Let's fire these guys and hire someone else randomly...I'm sure that will work!" The problem is, that hasn't worked for 20+ years...that process in itself is broken. So I would prefer to stick with what we have until we have a legitimate direction with clear goals. No more of this "I promise a perennial playoff contender" crap that nobody but a handful of elite coaches can deliver.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2021
    mlb1399 likes this.
  12. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

    8,565
    3,821
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    Powell, WY

    That's not a sustainable pattern for an NFL franchise. If the owner wants this team to win a SB, or even contend for one, they have to show a continued improvement year to year. And by that, I don't necessarily mean more wins, I mean how they perform. I could live with being 1-4 against the teams we've played IF we'd fought hard and lost close and showed that we had talent and coaching on defense. It's not our record, it's the fact that we got slaughtered.
     
  13. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    10,488
    12,821
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    I mostly agree with you- but we didn't get slaughtered 5 times. We almost beat the Raiders in OT. We did beat the Pats. The Bills and Bucks slaughtered us. To me, Indy was the most embarrassing of the five since they're not a good team.

    The problem all stems from that offensive line- they HAVE TO figure it out and have at least 4 long-term answers locked in position. They looked decent yesterday at Tampa...I expected us to get completely slaughtered every play with their D-line. We didn't do horrible though and I think it was a good learning opportunity. We'll see though- maybe it wasn't and that's the best we have. If so, then it really is doom and gloom.
     
  14. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

    3,893
    3,087
    113
    Mar 6, 2010
    This where you and I see eye to eye. This is more than about Flores or Grier. It’s showing the league that we’re committed to bringing in people with a plan, vision and will give them the necessary time to execute or fail. No respectable coach is going to come here knowing if he doesn’t work magic among complete dysfunction and start winning playoff games within 2.5 years.

    When you gut a roster and decide build through the draft, you’re relying on players that are in the transition from amateur to professional and haven’t mastered their craft yet. When you scrap the whole thing, a new coach comes in with different schemes and needs to overhaul the roster again.

    I know we want a team to be proud of and getting beat by 70 points against two teams doesn’t foster those kind of feelings. Let the season play out, let’s see if Flo can get this young team to improve over the course of the season and then re-evaluate. Change for the sake of change doesn’t work.
     
    KeyFin likes this.
  15. cbrad

    cbrad .

    10,659
    12,657
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    I once took the head coaching records of all coaches who started coaching in the NFL since 1966 and ran a simulation to see what the optimal firing point was, i.e., when should one fire a coach that has an overall losing record to maximize the chances of winning a SB in the shortest amount of time, and that optimal point is between 3-4 years. So statistically what Ross is doing isn't wrong in terms of giving coaches approximately 3-4 years time to prove themselves, though I admit the simulation has sample bias in that it only includes real world cases where people do get fired early (i.e., you don't have enough samples of coaches being given ample opportunity).

    Regardless, based on the historical data what's wrong is Ross' selection process, not the strategy of trying a new coach after 3-4 years. The problem with Ross is that my simulation chose coaches randomly, he doesn't!!

    Anyway, remember that there's an opportunity cost to sticking to a coach that isn't successful early: you wait longer before trying the next guy out. Even Landry — the BIG exception to this rule in that he had 5 straight losing seasons, then a 7-7 season, before he built a consistent winner with 20 straight winning seasons after that — took 12 years before his 1st SB victory. That's a long time for an exception to the rule. You can't bank on exceptions. The general rule is that if you can't make it work early you mostly likely won't later.

    No I think it's clear the problem is Ross. He doesn't know who to hire. But we're at a dead end once we acknowledge that. Just have to hope he's "random" enough to luck into a winner someday.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2021
    KeyFin likes this.
  16. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

    3,893
    3,087
    113
    Mar 6, 2010
    That’s interesting and seems appropriate. It would be interesting to see how many teams fired coaches in years 2 or 3 and how many Super Bowls they’ve won. Probably skewed because of some of the dynasties but maybe you could look at playoff appearances or wins.

    As far as Grier, he had success in year 2. We’ve taken a step back in year 3 but wouldn’t that be expected? We gutted our roster of veterans and had our starting QB injured. We have 3 rookies starting, 3/4 2nd year players starting and 3 3rd year players starting.

    The nucleus of this team should be our 2015-2018 drafts and we only have 4 players starting from there: Howard, Gesicki, Baker and Parker. Only one of them is an impact player. That 2017 was a complete bust. Winning teams just don’t completely whiff on 1-3 drafts.

    With these facts, it’s hard to understand why we cut or traded some serviceable to good players and/or didn’t sign people. Teams need leadership and that’s where those veterans matter so much.
     
    KeyFin likes this.
  17. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

    5,185
    2,907
    113
    Sep 22, 2009
    delaware
    Sadly I just.feel.like this team will never be good.
     
    KeyFin likes this.
  18. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    10,488
    12,821
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    Unfortunately, I completely agree with you. And I say 'unfortunately' because we can't fire or replace the owner. I do believe that Ross means well but he makes personnel decisions by committee- meaning he asks everyone and anyone in what the proper move should be. For instance, last time we hired a committee of great NFL minds...and then we went in a completely different direction. Coaches and execs see those types of moves and think to themselves, "I wouldn't want to work there...there's no stability or clear leadership."

    I'm not 100% against a full tear down and rebuild next season, but I do feel like we have to have data to back that move up. That means Tua is starting over with a new players around him, new coordinator and the chances of him developing drop considerably- maybe he's not even our QB next season. The same goes for Howard and our other studs- they'll want out so they're not wasting their careers. I mean, think about it- why would someone like Parker or Gisecki want to stay? They're not Miami Dolphins fans like we are- they're professional athletes in their prime.

    To end this cycle of 'rinse and repeat', I really think we need to see Grier's vision out for the full five seasons we promised up front. And maybe we're horrible the next two seasons, maybe none of it works, but I think we have a higher chance of being successful with Grier/Flores than a complete tear down once again.

    I felt the exact same thing about Gase; it wasn't that I loved him, but we had a competitive team that had some unfortunate injuries to the line and RT that last season. What if he got one more year and everything came together with Minkah, Tunsil and company? To me, it just makes more sense to fully see something through, figuring out what's broken and then moving in a specific direction. We have to stop just firing people and rolling the dice on the next coach up.
     
    Hooligan likes this.
  19. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

    5,185
    2,907
    113
    Sep 22, 2009
    delaware
    The problem I see is in year 3 all three units have taken major steps backwards.
    Flores in his own words said it's year three and this is the team we build so will see where we are.
    Well right now you are top 5 worst team in league..
    I fully expect them to beat a franchise that is at the moment more disfunctional that the phins.
    Lose this game and season is officially over!
     
  20. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

    13,501
    6,246
    113
    Oct 13, 2008
    New York
    Also, having two OCs and neither of them calling plays and having the QB coach call plays is a joke. It is just a total mess.
     
  21. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

    5,185
    2,907
    113
    Sep 22, 2009
    delaware
    That was stupid and numerous retired players around the league said it would not work they were right
     
    Sceeto likes this.
  22. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

    3,893
    3,087
    113
    Mar 6, 2010
    Well, we got rid of 2 of our 4 best pass rushers this off-season and replaced one of them with a rookie who is showing promise but to this point has been a drop off.

    Our offense is worse because our starting QB is injured(this was the warning flag before we drafted him) and our OL is struggling. Once again, we got rid of 2 veterans who played at an acceptable level for young players who aren’t playing to that level.

    To me this is more on Grier than anything. Still not sure what he thought about drafting Jackson in the 1st round. Anyone watching his bowl game saw him get destroyed by a NFL caliber DE.

    In my mind, these decisions are blunders:
    1) Drafting Tua over Herbert
    2) the 2020 1st round looks to be 2 busts and I’m not optimistic about Tua
    3) Trading 2 1st round draft picks to go get a WR who isn’t better than Smith or Chase
    4) the 2017 draft
    5) Cutting quality players this off-season and replacing them with rookies or guys not ready to play
     
  23. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

    5,185
    2,907
    113
    Sep 22, 2009
    delaware
    Don't forget ****ing a chan gailey to start a QB that didn't know the playbook without consulting him.
    These new coordinators are terrible and the great idea to not have one play caller
     
  24. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

    3,893
    3,087
    113
    Mar 6, 2010
    The Tua situation seems to be the epicenter of the dysfunction that’s showing up on the field. Between drafting him, forcing him into the lineup when Fitz had the locker room and Tua admitting he wasn’t ready/didn’t know the playbook.

    Is it Ross, Flores, Grier, some combination of all 3? I don’t know. They need to get s**t figure out quickly or they risk losing the fan base again and maybe permanently.
     
  25. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

    5,185
    2,907
    113
    Sep 22, 2009
    delaware
    I would rule Flores because 2 weeks prior he said he would not put Tua in if it was his son.For one he looked like an idiot and 2 he didn't not want to piss off Gailey.Acoording south fl sport writers Ross does not get involved.This leads us to Grier!
     
    hitman8 and mlb1399 like this.
  26. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    10,488
    12,821
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    I know a lot of you don't like Tua, but I think this could be a very fluid offense if we can protect him and he can find his rhythm. He's one of the most accurate QB's in the league and he gets the ball out so darn fast- I think people just need to see why this admin valued him so much. He will never be Herbert but that's not what the front office wanted.

    Again, not defending Tua over Herbert...but only one of them is our QB right now and we don't have a choice on who to root for if we're Fins fans. I really believe that Tua is elite at his brand of football though and we haven't seen that yet except in small spurts. We can definitely win with him if the line can be figured out by names currently on our roster.
     
  27. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

    3,893
    3,087
    113
    Mar 6, 2010
    Its not that I don’t like him. He seems like a good guy with a good head on his shoulders. I just don’t that him to stay healthy. Which means we’re always going to have to have an expensive backup QB.
     
  28. JJ_79

    JJ_79 Well-Known Member

    4,587
    1,707
    113
    Nov 25, 2012
    Germany
    Totally agreed but I just don’t see him staying healthy and he might develop into something but so far it‘s one good game and I think that most people don’t hate Tua it‘s just a) he can’t stay healthy and b) Herbert is rocking like a Superstar + our 1st rounders the past few years are no game changers + our free agency moves are suspect. Put that all together and then seeing our defense regress, which supposed to be our strength then no wonder people are questioning everything especially when everyone in this franchise is trying to be to cute. Sure let the season play out but I‘ll doubt that Tua is going to play every game this season after he comes back…

    Oh and since the Colts game I changed from rooting for them to back to proof it to me…
     
    KeyFin likes this.
  29. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    10,488
    12,821
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    I get why you'd say that, but if you look at that Bills game where he got hurt, he was leveled by a free rusher four out of five snaps. I don't care who the QB is, that's not going to cut it and they'll eventually be hurt. We just can't run an offense like that and expect any sort of positive outcome...unless your QB is a young Russell Wilson.

    And by the way, Tua has been releasing the ball around 1.5 seconds after snap- that's insanely fast for a young QB. So it's not like he's holding the ball and getting clobbered; the line is just that bad.

    I mean, just look at this year- Tua, Dalton, Fitzpatrick, Carr, Jackson, Big Ben...they've all been hurt behind sub-par line performances this season. Even Rodgers looked downright bad in week one once they got consistent pressure on him. The difference between those other QB's and our QB is those teams made immediate adjustments to protect their QB's. We couldn't do that with all young guys who are still developing. Tua's injury is 100% on the front office for putting him in that position.
     
  30. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

    3,893
    3,087
    113
    Mar 6, 2010
    If that was his only injury, I’d certainly buy into that. The problem is it’s ankle, his hip, his finger and now his rib. He’s small, not durable and it doesn’t get easier to stay healthy in the NFL.
     
    hitman8 likes this.
  31. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    10,488
    12,821
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    I completely agree. But at the same time, you drafted a small QB and you absolutely have to protect him. There's no excuse for a free rusher to ever hit your QB in stride. Especially when he's getting rid of the ball that fast.
     
  32. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

    1,461
    1,234
    113
    Dec 29, 2013
    False

    “Look, the honest thing for me is if it was my kid, and he had a serious injury like that, I wouldn’t want his coach to throw him in there because of media pressure or anything like that. That’s kind of how I approach this situation and really all situations. The players, essentially, they are my kids. So no one is going to pressure me into doing anything. When we feel like he’s ready to go, we’ll put him in.”
     
  33. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

    3,893
    3,087
    113
    Mar 6, 2010
    Is that the truth or is that coach speak? No one who values their job throws their boss, much less an owner of the company under the bus publicly.
     
  34. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

    1,461
    1,234
    113
    Dec 29, 2013
    Yeah it doesn't really reveal anything about whether Flores was ready to play him or not. Its purely him saying the media won't pressure him and nothing more.
     
    KeyFin likes this.
  35. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

    5,185
    2,907
    113
    Sep 22, 2009
    delaware
    Its true because Flores used the injury excuse because he knew Tua did not know the playbook.
    What coach in his right mind that had a vet playing well would put in a rookie qb who did not know the playbook.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2021
    Hooligan and KeyFin like this.
  36. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

    1,461
    1,234
    113
    Dec 29, 2013
    You said he wouldn't play him if he was son. Its not what he said.
     
  37. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

    5,820
    4,665
    113
    Jan 15, 2008
    It's no use, I already tried to explain this exact quote to him in a earlier thread. He doesn't understand words or context really.
     
  38. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

    5,185
    2,907
    113
    Sep 22, 2009
    delaware
    If you don't see he wasn't pressured to play him when he didn't even know the playbook then I don't even know what to tell you.
     
  39. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

    1,461
    1,234
    113
    Dec 29, 2013
    You said he wouldn't play him if he was son. Its not what he said.
     
  40. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

    5,185
    2,907
    113
    Sep 22, 2009
    delaware
    So I misquoted him.Bottomline he was pressured to play him.You arguing with that ?
     

Share This Page