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Tua is not the Problem

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, Nov 6, 2021.

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  1. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    Running game is by and far a product of the Offensive line. Our product is not very good. Not that Gaskin is top tier but when they tackle you right when you get the ball, not much you can do.
     
  2. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    Agree, now there are obviously different tiers of running backs. A man like Derrick Henry is an MVP behind a good offensive line. However, look at Ezekiel Elliott last year. Dallas had injuries and issues to their O line last year and he ended up looking washed and having his worst statistical season as a pro. Dallas also sucked.
     
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  3. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    This, as a general rule of thumb is accurate…but there are exceptions. We’ll get back to that in a second.

    Remember the”other” LT…LaDanien Tomlinson? What a phenomenal running back! He ran over opponents left and right in San Diego. There was no doubt their offense’s success was based on his productivity. But what happened when he chased the money and went to the Jets? Their offensive line was so horrible that he virtually disappeared off the radar. This supports fully your stance on an OL being the base of any running back’s success.

    But…look at the LEGENDARY Barry Sanders! An absolutely horrible offensive line! The defense was in the backfield by the time the ball was handed off to him and yet…I’m still mesmerized by the runs he pulled off.

    Derrick Henry reminds me of a modern day Earl Campbell…big strong athletic back that would just run over you. With Henry though, the man gets STRONGER as the game goes on. That’s a generational running back that we won’t see for years to come.

    If only we could build that offensive line…and get that Barry Sanders or Derrick Henry…what an offensive powerhouse we would be
     
  4. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    Barry Sanders was an exceptional exception. IMO, the only running backs who escaped sold out defenses the way he could were probably Gale Sayers and OJ Simpson, both of whom could change direction for a homerun. Neither of them compared with Sanders, though. GOAT.
     
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  5. Kud_II

    Kud_II Realist Division

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    I gave TUa plenty of props. I called him a young Chad Pennington(when he played with us version) but Chad, and Tua both had similar major limitations which = Low ceiling. Maybe if we had the greatest GM that could spot every talented offensive player in the 3rd 4th and 5th type rounds and could put together the perfect (Tua Team) yeah. He doesn't have a great OL or reliable WRs that can also stay healthy (of course neither can he seemingly on that matter - That's called a trend. He's probably more likely to get re-injured at some point than not, at this... point)

    Tua is a good stop gap, and he doesn't cause us to lose hope at a superbowl by himself.. If we magically fielded a better than average offense we'd have a chance to actually beat the ones who stole our glory... Fluffalo. Who is likely the favorite to win the superbowl at least in the AFC, havent checked odds or anything.
     
  6. Kud_II

    Kud_II Realist Division

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    Oh my point was if you can't see his limitations as a passer without having a good team. It's about his arm strength mostly, his accuracy second. Technically it's his fragility 1st. Anyway this is all my opinion, but unless he magically can carry a team, he's not going to carry a bad one, I think that's already been proven.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2021
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  7. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I fully agree; Barry Sanders was next-level, over the top elite. I used to love watching him work in traffic...he was magical!

    For the younger folks here who don't know who he is, it's definitely worth taking a look. And it doesn't have to be highlight films either- just any random game will show him doing things that normal humans can't do. Easily the best running back ever and by far the most entertaining.
     
  8. JJ_79

    JJ_79 Well-Known Member

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    I would be fine with another Ricky.
     
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  9. Dolphin Dundee

    Dolphin Dundee Well-Known Member

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    Talking about running backs watching Johnathan Taylor lead the league in rushing makes me sick. We could have had him but instead we got Iggy i hate this staff!
     
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  10. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Every team could have had him. The coulda/woulda crap doesn't work. We coulda had a bunch of great players, so could alot of other teams.

    He's a running back. His career will likely be over/dwindling in less than five years.
     
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  11. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    It's not just that we didn't pick Taylor, or a number of other great players that were available with that 1st round pick, the worst part is we completely wasted the pick on Igbinogenhe, a guy who had no business being picked any higher than the 4th round or 5th round.
     
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  12. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    That and depending on how you view Tua, we missed on 2/3 of our 1st round picks that year. Jackson is one of the worst OL I’ve seen. Probably have to go back to Jonathan Martin and Noah can’t even beat out an undrafted player for playing time.
     
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  13. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    A good veteran OL coach should be first in fixing the OL.
     
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  14. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    I was fortunate enough to watch the entire career of Barry Sanders. I mean, not every Sunday of course, but he came into the league right when I started to really watch. Head and shoulders the best to ever play the position. We'll never see another one like him. Emmitt Smith gets a lot of the love for GOAT from that era, but that title is truly held by Sanders. I remember one of the defensive lineman from the Bears...I believe it was Dan Hampton...In an interview, held up a few fingers and said "I broke these trying to tackle Barry Sanders."
     
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  15. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    People remember his shiftiness but forget his power. Players had to get a solid tackle for the most part, Sanders wasn't a runningback that would be taken down by a single arm tackle.

    Sometimes I wonder if there is a universe where Barry Sanders was drafted to a team that had an offense designed for a runningback. I think he may have broken 2500 yards in a season.
     
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  16. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    This entire conversation had me spend ten minutes watching fifty of his greatest highlights. Obviously there are wayyyy more than fifty, but yeah...He had DT's bouncing off of him. The majority of the guys that were able to catch him or stop him did so with a horse collar tackle. He was definitely not the fastest running back, but shiftiness, the agility to break East or West on a dime, the skill to find the cutback lane, tackle breaking...He really was the greatest. I remember how durable he was as well. He never took a full on hit where he was just planted like almost every other back in the game takes at one time. Everyone says Jim Brown was the best to ever do it, but I didn't get to see him play. Highlights just don't do him justice either. If you saw Sanders play live, it was an entirely different level of greatness. If he was playing your team, you just knew that an "Oh ****" moment was going to happen and you were lucky if it only happened one time. Sanders only faced us three times in his career. He went for 143 yards in 1991 against us (we lost), 110 total yards rushing/receiving in 1994 (we won), 137 yards and a TD in 1997 (we won). I watched all three of those games as a kid and I remember afterwards thinking that we had actually held him in check for the most part despite those totals. Mainly because he never broke a play more than 25 yards against us. I lived in Wisconsin during his later years and he gave Packer fans anxiety attacks I'm sure.
     
  17. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Watching Jim Brown highlights is like watching a NFL player of today go back in time to play in the NFL during his time. He was so much bigger, stronger, and faster than everyone out there. It is nuts!

    I do think Sanders is better because he was making super athletes who a lot were on steroids look silly.

    There are a few players like Deon Sanders or Calvin Johnson who were just physical freaks as well as great players, but I don't think many players hold a candle to Barry Sanders.
     
  18. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    I view Tua as a miss as well, especially considering we could have taken herbert. And I'm not playing hindsight either, as soon as we picked Igbinogenhe I said he was going to be our next Jamar Fletcher, I also called out Jackson as a weak undeveloped bust candidate, and said Tua was an injury risk and not that talented. I don't know how me just watching tape in my spare time can see these things coming, and idiot Grier who gets paid millions to evaluate talent for a living continues to **** the bed over and over. 2020 will go down as one of the worst drafts in dolphins history.
     
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  19. Fishhead

    Fishhead Well-Known Member

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    If you put Barry Sanders on the Cowboys and Emmitt Smith on Detroit, Sanders would have put up numbers that would defy comprehension, and would never be reached (And the Cowboys probably win more than 3 championships). Smith would have been just an above average back.
     
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  20. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    I completely agree, that was always the argument between myself and the bevy of bandwagon Cowboy fans that I ran into back in those days. The argument was always who was better? Smith or Sanders? Really not much of an argument if you ask me. Smith is no doubt one of the greats. He played on contending teams year in and year out. He played injured, he carried that team at times. He was a superhero in his own right, but Barry Sanders was supremely talented and would have ended up with multiple 2,000 yard seasons behind that Dallas O line. Thank God he didn't play for them. I simply can't see Sanders in anything other than a Lions uniform. It's like imagining Michael Jordan in a Portland Trailblazers uni.
    One of the many awesome experiences of being a 90s kid was being privileged to watching Barry Sanders play. Without a doubt my all time favorite football player NOT named Marino.
     
  21. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Watching tape in my spare time lol. I think you should be a GM in the NFL. Your outlooks on prospects are incredible.
     
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  22. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    Injury robbed us of seeing Terrell Davis rewrite record books. Strong. Fast. Quick. Great running backs normally combine two of the three traits but IMO, TD was the only one who possessed all three. I was never a Denver fan, but I wouldn't miss a Broncos game because he was a true game changer. No, not on Barry Sanders' level but truly exciting to watch. One of the surprising things that the Hall of Fame got write was inducting him after an abbreviated career.
     
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  23. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I think the one that injury's actually stole us from is Jamaal Charles. I always felt TD was very much a combination of a player who was in the perfect system for him. The Broncoes didn't really lose much when he was out.

    Jamaal Charles' career average is 5.4 with 1407 carries. That is better than Barry Sanders (5.0) and Jim Brown (5.2)

    He broke a record that many people said would never be broken which was career yards per carry. I think because his career wasn't spectacular and he didn't make any super bowls that record became ignored. Plus running backs not being as big of stars as they used to be.

    I just remember many people talking about how if Barry Sanders couldn't break this record, it will never be broken. Then Jamaal Charles did it, and is mostly forgotten.
     
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  24. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    Davis was no doubt an incredible player...6th round pick that blew the league up right away. That was a weird draft for running backs from what I remember. The first round went running back crazy, Ki-jana Carter, Tyrone Wheatley, Napoleon Kaufman, James Stewart, Rashaan Salaam and yet none of them really did much. Stewart probably had the best career out of that group. Jump to the third round and Curtis Martin ends up in the HOF. Davis goes three rounds later.
     
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  25. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

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    Its not like these are players who would have gone three rounds later if Miami didn't take them. A lot of the failures fall on the coaching and their inability to develop.
     
  26. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Wrong, real talent always shines through regardless of coaching. Igbinogenhe would probably have gone round three at the earliest. I don't see how anybody could have a first round grade on him unless they are a complete idiot. Same with Jackson. The coaching excuse is a copout for Grier. How come Holland has been able to come in and have success right off the bat? He's been working with the same coaches Igbinogenhe has. It's because he actually has real talent and was one of Grier's rare hits. Coaching can only polish a blade, it cannot make it a blade.

    Real players will show up early on regardless of how good or bad coaching is. Grier is just very bad at picking out those real players.
     
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  27. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

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    Grier needs to go but if you are getting the absolute minimum out of players that falls on coaching.

    Jackson getting picked early in the second wouldn't excuse his poor play any more. That is the bottom line. They obviously shouldn't have picked him but that doesn't mean he isn't capable of being better than the worst of the worst.
     
  28. Rouk

    Rouk Well-Known Member

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    Considering how bad the oline is this should scream tua isn’t a bust atm.
     
  29. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Hitman8 already evaluated the tape. Tua is done.
     
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  30. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    I can print out that chart and wipe my *** with it for all it's worth. Typical stat buffs leading the blind. The tape don't lie, you should always trust the film and not stats.

    Stats are misleading, what's the sample size? Tua doesn't even attempt to throw it long that much and prefers to check down. He doesn't take the chances downfield that a guy like Allen does because he doesn't have the same confidence in his arm. When he does throw it down field it's usually because the guy is wide open.

    All this shows is that Tua knows when to take his chances downfield given his limitations. Which is something I already knew from actually watching him play, instead of just reading misleading charts.
     
  31. Rouk

    Rouk Well-Known Member

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    The only thing dolphins tape from this season shows is a trash offensive line that doesn’t have a single tackle on the roster.
     
  32. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I cannot tell if this is a troll parody post or not. Just in case it's not, why should anyone trust your eyes over the great number of pundits that have broken down and published various video's of Tua playing and not come to your conclusions? Also, when you call it "tape" you just come off as old and technologically impaired. I say this as someone who is old and technologically impaired enough to have loaded computer apps not only via magnetic tape spools, but punched paper tape too.
     
  33. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not asking anybody to trust me, I'm just saying what I see, and I have been right much more often than not. If you want to go listen to pundits go right ahead, just be aware they regularly get it completely wrong. And no, not every pundit sees it differently than me, there are quite a few analysts who have the same view I do. Tua's ok, but not great or elite.

    As for the tape reference, it's just a figure of speech, goes without saying I actually mean video. Lot's of people use the word tape when they refer to watching game footage. Don't be so sensitive...
     
  34. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Which analysts are those? I haven't seen one that has concluded that he is unable to become great. That his arm is always going to hold him back. I haven't seen one think that he hits check downs because of his arm, instead of the line and WR play. If you cannot find anyone showing the "tape" that you mention, then where are you seeing that? Which games, plays, etc...? I have game pass.

    Basically, I think you are full of malarkey, but don't snap your cap, or flip your wig. I'm not trying to be a wisenheimer, or bust your chops, I just think you're whistling dixie, instead of taking a gander at the actual film.
     
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  35. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    I have said numerous times, and I said it when we drafted him as well. Tua is not terrible. He will not be a complete bust, but he is also not elite, his talent was magnified because he was playing on a great team in Alabama and he had the media hype behind him. He is more of a system QB, if you put the right system in place for him and surround him with a great team he will do well. However, he is not the type of QB who can overcome adversity and elevate his teams play when he is not surrounded with a great supporting cast. He is not elite in that sense. The coaches have also realized this, which is exactly why we were actively courting Watson all this time. Aside from this, he has a fragile body and is liable to get injured anytime he takes a big hit. Availability and durability is also a talent which Tua unfortunately does not have, aside from not having a great arm or great football IQ. For all of these reasons, I don't think he was worth the #5 overall pick, and I said so when we drafted him.

    Below are a couple of examples of analysts having similar views regarding Tua:

    First 4 minutes and 15 seconds are basically my same sentiments regarding Tua.


    This old geezer referring to "tape" again. Sorry about that...
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2021
  36. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Living across the river from Detroit I got to see alot of Barry Sanders growing up. You're absolutely right here. Doesn't matter whether you're watching his highlights, or lowlights. His lowlights are highlights for most players. Special doesn't even begin to describe what Barry Sanders could do.
     
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  37. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Just a tip here... this is why you rub people the wrong way here; not because of your opinion. It's ok to have an opinion, but when you pass it off with your superiority complex; nobody cares to take you seriously because you just come across as a smug arrogant jerk that's not worth actually debating/conversing with. Nothing personal; I enjoy reading your takes whether I agree or not because i do get the impression you have a clue, but to act like you're gods gift to the football world is the problem. Just... wanted to throw that out there though. You're an average fan like the rest of us; leave your ego behind and just lay out your opinion. Just my 2 cents.

    :up:
     
  38. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Point well taken. I do realize I may come across that way sometimes. Really is not intentional, my apologies.

    I am just a regular fan, and I really do love the dolphins, have so for 29 years now.

    When I criticize the team it's from a good place. I became a dolphin fan in the era of Marino and being super bowl contenders, so I may be spoiled in that sense, but I'm just sick and tired of the endless mediocrity for the last 26 years.

    Also, when I speak I don't just speak out of my ***, I actually do my research. When I comment on a draft pick I will have watched at least two games worth of footage on them before offering my opinion, and when I comment on a game I will have watched the whole game and replayed specific plays to comment on them.

    It's not just casual ****ting on the team for ****'s sake as some may believe.
     
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  39. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    I wanted Herbert over Tua too for many of the same reasons. That being said, what's done is done. My question for you is how much do you think Tua has improved from this year to last?
     
  40. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    I constantly remind people on message boards, Twitter and FB that folks seen to be "trolls" (constantly complaining that the team needs to improve, regardless of how well it seems to be playing) are just as much fans as people who could accept a manure truck and swearing it's roses. I'm somewhere firmly in the middle of the two. I recognize that even championship teams could be better and have no problem with fans pointing it out.

    A big part of the issue with Tua is a lot of his detractors either barely recognize what he does well, while blowing up his obvious areas of opportunity as if they're deal breakers. He's playing as well as I'd hope for a second year player with arguably the worst line (and offensive coordinator(s)) in the NFL. Moving on from him before fixing what's broken around him only sets his replacement up to fail.

    It's all an exercise of semantics and subjectivity. We should all be able to agree to disagree, but acknowledge when someone with a differing opinion is right. Personally, it's way too easy for me to avoid replying to strangers jonesing for a fight, so any and all opinions are welcome. The only way to really do it wrong is to make something personal.
     
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