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Tua is not the Problem

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, Nov 6, 2021.

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  1. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Stats don't matter, pal. It's all about the optics to random shlubs on the internet.
     
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  2. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Yup, Tua's on the far sides of both of them. Everybody knows that the cool kids hang out in the middle.
     
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  3. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    And that's where we are. When stats don't hold you up, move the goalposts and argue on personal intuition, your superior knowledge about these things, and aesthetics.

    Attributes:
    Completion %
    Check
    Consistent Play
    Check
    Leadership Ability
    Check
    Sack Avoidance
    Check
    Ability To Make Team Better
    Check
    Win/Loss Record Compared to Superior Burrow & Herbert
    Check
    QBR/Rating
    Check
    Yards Per Attempt
    Partial Check (Middle Of The League)
    Wow Factor/Superpower/Ability To Throw 70 Yard Strikes
    Unchecked

    Now, the argument has been reduced to:
    "Tua sucks because he **checks notes** has middling YPA, no wow factor or superpower and can't throw a 70 yard bullet. Yeah, that's the ticket.
     
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  4. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    This is sad. But it's not wrong.
     
  5. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    Found on Reddit:

    Myth-busting the deep ball
    [​IMG]
    As it's bye week, I thought I'd cobble together something a little bit different: some myth-busting!

    As a former QB, I’m often intrigued at how certain elements of the game are perceived, even by some overpaid sportscasters who should know better. Now, I know Reddit is generally a place where people go to voice their opinion, rather than hear others, but I hope that some of you fellow Dolphins fans might value a bit of insight from a guy who's stood behind an o-line… and watched a defense overloading near a third-string replacement guard.



    [​IMG]
    Ah, such fond memories. But anyway:

    Source: former all-state and four year collegiate QB. Nothing special, but my play was good enough to be a regular starter and get my education for free



    The myth of the long pass

    Long passes are the ones we all want to see and the ones all the quarterbacks want to make. They’re thrilling, they look amazing and people say nice things about you when you make one. But from a QBs perspective (and I hate to tell you this), they're really not *that* hard.

    What?!

    That's right. Give me a long attempt down the field to an open receiver over a seven-yard pass into traffic any day. Now, no one is saying the deep pass is easy - if it was, we’d see teams going for it more often. Long passes are hard to complete. But that has a lot less to do with the QB than many people think. Allow me to explain:



    Where long passes come from

    In general, long passes come from three places:

    • Scheme busting plays (particularly play-action)

    • Receivers beating man-coverage

    • Defensive mistakes
    As the number one priority, defensive schemes are designed to keep the game in front of the defenders and not give up the big play. It’s because of this that:



    Long passes are not really about the QB

    A short pass completion is mostly about the quarterback. The read and release need to be made quickly and the ball thrown with pinpoint accuracy. There are a lot of defenders in and around the passing zone, not to mention the linemen with their arms up, making the timing, speed and accuracy of the pass crucial.

    Long pass completions however, are much more about the receiver and the o-line. The o-line must protect the QB long enough for the receiver to get down the field and create separation. The receiver then needs to judge the ball speed and trajectory, follow the lead (if the QB has given one) and execute the catch, often at a stretch or at speed. Alternatively, a pass recorded as long can also come from yards after the catch, which is entirely about the receiver.

    That’s not to say the quarterback doesn’t have a role to play - we all like to see a ball caught in stride - simply that the long pass is far less about the skill of the QB than the short pass. Stay with me on this, I know it sounds nuts. To understand it we need to look at:



    Why long passes are dangerous

    Now, lots of people think long passes are dangerous because it’s harder to be accurate the further down the field you throw. But the truth is, the primary danger from a deep pass comes from *how long the ball is in the air*, not how accurate the pass is. Unlike a short pass, in general there’s only one defender near the target (unless it’s a hail-mary… or the QB made a bad decision). But the longer the air time, the longer a defender has to get to the ball and make a play.

    And (here’s another myth busted) on a deep pass, how the long the ball is in the air has little to do with:



    Arm-strength

    This might surprise you, but when a coach or scout talks about arm-strength, they're not talking about how far a QB can throw, but how fast they can throw. Marino's cannon-arm was famous for how hard he threw the ball and how fast it got to the receiver. Because again, the faster you get the ball to the receiver, the less time there is for a defender to get to it.

    Believe it or not, *any high school sophomore QB can throw a 40 yard pass*. Now, if said sophomore went to a coach to ask how they could throw it further, the first thing the coach would say would be: *stop trying to throw it so hard*. That's because the long ball, much like swinging a golf club, is more about mechanics than about arm strength. It’s about form not force.

    What separates the ability to throw a good long ball from a bad one isn't arm-strength at all, it's technique. The best QBs are experts at setting the angle-of-attack correctly so the arc of the football takes the most efficient and accurate route to the receiver. Judging and setting the trajectory correctly can send a 40 yard pass 60 yards with the same amount of power.

    "Ok fine," I hear you say. "But why should I care about that?" Well...



    What does this mean for the Dolphins?

    Let me be clear here: check-downs and flares are generally easy (though you still need to have your wits about you). But every other short pass is much, much harder than you might realize.

    So if you're worried about why the Dolphins don’t push the ball down the field more often, then take it from me: the Dolphins lean heavily on the short pass because the o-line can't block for long and they don't have much of a run game to set up a play-action. But the field will be stretched plenty once we get some decent blockers, I assure you.

    Finally, any narrative about quarterback limitations is entirely false. Judged with a QB's eyes, Tua’s ability to make a read, run a progression and get the ball away with perfect accuracy, in less than two seconds and when the defense already know the short pass is coming is mind blowing. He does things I have no idea how to do and certainly never witnessed on a field. And he does them over and over and over again. Trust me when I say this: what he does is hard, he just makes it look easy.

    Anyway, that’s it. I hope you found this insight interesting and encouraging. Thank you for reading and I’m happy to answer any questions of course. Go Dolphins!



    [​IMG]


    TLDR: QBs don't like to admit it, but those big beautiful bombs down field are much less about quarterback than you might think. I know, outrageous isn’t it?
     
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  6. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Alright listen, all of this “can’t throw the long ball” talk is silly. Let’s do a SIMPLE exercise, shall we?

    Tua has, on average what, about 2 seconds before he's under pressure?

    The FASTEST receiver we have runs the 40, un-impeded in shirts and a tank top in what, 4.3 seconds?

    Now someone explain to me, like I’m a 6 year old how a quarterback is supposed to get the ball, set, plant his feet, wind up and throw a 70 yard pass in under 2 seconds when you’re receiver will be at best, 20-30 yards down field?

    Evade pressure? Absolutely, you want your quarterback to be able to evade pressure but is that what you want him doing EVERY TIME he drops back to pass?

    If you want Tagovailoa to be able to throw those pretty long passes then damn it, fix the freaking line so he can.
     
  7. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    "I'm tired of all of this dinking and dunking. We need a quarterback who can throw downfield. I want somebody on my team who can throw like #13 in this video."
     
  8. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    It also takes the ball another 2-3 seconds to get 50-60 yards downfield once it leaves the QBs hand. So even if the receiver is only 20-30 yards downfield at the time it's released, if he's fast he will have time to run another 20-30 yards in the time it takes the ball to get there.

    But I agree with you, having a bad online makes it a lot harder to throw long.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2021
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  9. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Well, if at 2 seconds the receiver is 30 yards downfield, then you throw the ball on a higher arc so that it's in the air for about two seconds, which should allow the receiver to run another 30 yards. It's called throwing to a spot, not to the receiver.
     
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  10. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    Chris Simms was the absolute master of making that throw.
     
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  11. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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  12. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    This is how you throw deep, even with bad protection.
     
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  13. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Great pass. No doubt he has a good arm. He dinked and dunked the entire first half before this throw. You didn't see that though.

    And, if this was Tua you would have said it was blown coverage.
     
  14. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    No, if it was Tua I would have said great throw. I wish Tua could make a throw like that.

    I watched only parts of the chargers game this week, and the parts I watched he was airing it out, including this throw which I watched live. I did catch almost the entirety of the chargers Bengals game last week, and he was throwing it long all game long for 34 points on offense, and now 37 points this week against the Giants.

    Tua played the same Giants defense last week and we only managed 20 points dinking and dunking.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2021
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  15. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    You know, you should migrate the the Chargers fan site so you can share your viagra induced erection for Herbert with all of their fans.

    Herbert is NOT a Dolphin so I don’t care one bit what he does, can do or might do. I really don’t…and I would venture to guess most anyone else here doesn’t either.
     
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  16. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    This is such a dumb argument for a guy who says he knows everything about football.

    Every game is different. Tua did more against the Ravens in one quarter than Herbert did in an entire game.
     
  17. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

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    Some want Herbert to be great and Tua to be bad because they want to be right more than they want Miami to be good. They would deny that but giving updates about everything Herbert does is the evidence
     
  18. Rouk

    Rouk Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, herbie threw an absolute piss missile on that one. He did have 4 seconds to throw btw and I wouldn’t call that horrendous protection. The tackle gets beat but at least has his hands on him and the other side is stonewall blocked which easily allows him to slide that way. He was in no danger there and could have easily ran if he wanted to. Instead he chose to take a hit and throw a piss missile. I think even if tua could make that throw he wouldn’t anyways under those circumstances.
     
  19. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    *Ding Ding*

    Looks like we have a winner. I'm cool with having different opinions. I admit to being wrong sometimes, myself. That's what message boards are all about. But dang if it doesn't seem like some people are twisting themselves into knots because they want to maintain credibility more than they want to happily admit that they might be wrong. To be sure, it's way too early to anoint Tua. But if you can say that he's not trending in the right direction, then your expectation level is off the chart.
    [​IMG]
     
  20. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    When have I said I know everything about Football?
     
  21. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    I shared it because it is specifically relevant to the posters question about how is Tua supposed to throw long if he has pressure within 2 seconds.
     
  22. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    I've always said Tua can be good and won't be a complete bust, I said it when we drafted him, my only gripe with the pick is I didn't think he was great, and was too big an injury risk to be a top 5 pick. And he is not better than Herbert, who should have been our pick in 2020.
     
  23. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    You have no clue how well Herbert would play in Miami. You're entitled to your opinion, though.
     
  24. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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  25. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    Cherry Pickin' R-Us
    [​IMG]
     
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  26. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand why you guys are still defending Tua...I just don't get it. If people look at our five-game win streak and still think he's not the guy, then they're not going to change their minds this year...or probably next year. There's really nothing left to prove here.
     
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  27. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

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    He didn't throw it within 2 seconds. You can't roll out if 3 of your lineman get beat which is a typical play in Miami.
     
  28. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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  29. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    Pretty sure that's where most of us lie. It's possible to like both players. Comparing one to the other is cool, but if you have to trash the one in order to make the other seem good, you shoot down your credibility and consequently, hurt your own point. I can offer props to Justin Herbert without suggesting that Tua was a miss. And vice versa.
     
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  30. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It's fun to run up the score, or in this case, drive the point through the ground. So, "for fun" is your answer. If Tua is ever inducted into the HoF, I'm going to figure out a way to post on this thread. Probably have to buy some sort of emulator for my brain plug.
     
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  31. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  32. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  33. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    [​IMG]
     
  34. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Tua sucked today but his pedigree as a winner took over.
     
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  35. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Yup, probably his worst game as a Dolphin. But he did calm down, make a few clutch throws and the line/run game helped him out. It's amazing what can happen when all 11 players participate on offense.
     
  36. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    The Bad: He seemed off the whole game.
    The Ugly: Two interceptions, including a pick six. Could have easily have been five.
    The Good: Instead of getting into his feels about how things were going, he came up big when he needed to.

    I have a feeling we're going to have a great week of practice.
     
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  37. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    Better yet when all 22 pitch in. Looked like our guys forgot that tackling was legal in the first quarter. And Tua was uncharacteristically tepid today. But at the end of the game, both he and the D were churning. It would have blown my whole week if the OL and running game finally played well and we still managed to lose the game.
     
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  38. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    He was like the anti-Tua

    Better in the 2nd and 3rd then the 1st and 4th
     
  39. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    I love this take. I was screaming just Fn tackle the guy. You would think at this level, thru High School, College and now the Pros they could just have the fundamentals in place. I hope this weeks practice is about that. The fundamentals. It would be a good practice focus. Too keep them focused. On what’s important. Fundamentals.
     
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  40. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I was cracking up during the 1st quarter when the announcers said that the Jets were playing "sandlot football" with all the tricks, gimmicks and ad-lib plays. Those sorts of things aren't going to last through an entire NFL game.
     
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