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Fixing the OL

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, Dec 6, 2021.

  1. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    Our OL is under performing.
    I'm convinced they can play better than they are playing at present, even without personnel changes. However, new talent is also needed.

    The question is, what are the right moves to make?

    There's the draft, free agency/trades and coaching.

    Who would you keep on our current OL?
    How high up/where in the draft would you be happy to spend picks on the OL?
    How many picks in 2022?
    How prepared are you to hunt after FA's? Any particular players?
    Are you happy with the current OL coach, do we stay in house, seek new help outside?

    Here are the FA's for 2022:
    https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/offensive-line/
     
  2. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    Keep Davis, Hunt and Liam. Move Liam to RT and Davis to LG. Buy Jackson a one way to ticket to anywhere in the world and wish him the best.

    Draft Linderbaum(C), Penning(T) or Cross(T) whoever is available. Then sign whatever position you don’t draft in FA
     
  3. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sold on Liam either, he is currently sucking too badly to be considered the answer at RT. He played RT for a while this year and was terrible there also.

    He seems to have movement, footwork and balance issues that I am not sure can be improved enough to make him a good NFL tackle regardless of whether it's on the right or left.

    Usually a quality player will play at least decently in his rookie year, but Liam has just been horrendous, almost as bad as Jackson.

    Jackson definitely has to go. He should not even be starting right now. Kindley was playing better than him before getting benched.

    Davis needs to be moved to left guard, he has never been a good Tackle I don't know who got the stupid idea of moving him there.

    Dieter should be kept on as a serviceable backup center.

    So only dieter, Davis, Hunt and Kindley should be kept, and Liam can be a serviceable backup swing tackle.

    The rest of the line should be filled in FA and the draft. I have not really researched the 2022 crop of linemen in the draft and FA yet, I just know Grier should NOT be making the selections. Grier has to go, he's the whole reason we are in this mess as he has no idea how to evaluate olinemen and prefers spending big on injured receivers than on quality linemen.

    We also need a new oline coach. Someone with a proven record of putting together good lines, I don't care what we have to pay him but the oline coach needs to be top notch.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2021
  4. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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  5. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    It was clearly the year's biggest mistake starting all these young linemen, but I am glad Jackson and Eichenberg are getting quality reps. I don't think you trade/cut either one yet...but I'd rotate Liam and keep Jackson off the field.

    The reason these reps are so important is because it's the only position where live competition is the only way to grow. Practice is not at full speed/full contact so you never know what you really have until they're thrown into the mix.

    Eichenberg at least has solid fundamentals and it shows on tape where his mistakes come from- it's not major fixes. Its literally one step to square your feet and have the best possible chance of cutting off the edge, but it looks like he'll get fooled in protections and over-commit one way or the other. Fix his shuffle steps, clean up the angles and I think he's okay- he does well when he's in position and makes solid contact.

    Jackson is failing in technique and power; he's getting manhandled and stays off-balance the majority of the time. Playing the line, that first step is EVERYTHING...either you get in a position to win with leverage, or you're playing behind and very unlikely to catch up. Jackson can be salvageable but it comes back to those fundamentals- it's a terrible sign that we don't see them consistently in year two.

    The explosion comes from your legs and through your core...he just doesn't have that anymore (he did before the transplant). So there's still some hope there anyway but I don't think he gets there without great coaching and more live reps...which is the catch 22 we're facing now. He's not starter quality but he'll never get there without the reps.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2021
  6. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Fixing the OL, you guys are all looking in the wrong direction. While players and talent are indeed crucial, it’s coaching that these players need. Our OL coaching has been underwhelming to say the least.

    If we were truly SERIOUS about fixing the OL in the off season, go get Bill Callahan, Mike Munchak or Dante Scarnecchia. Get a HIGH QUALITY offensive line coach that can anchor the offense, as it should and even average skill players will look elite.

    Imagine Tua having a minimum of 4 seconds every time he dropped back before the threat of getting g sacked? Imagine the LOS being pushed back 5 yards on any rushing play before our RB (even if it still Gaskins) was handed the ball.

    The OL needs improvement and it’s a drum I’ve continuously banged on but if you’re going to fix a major problem, you have to get a coach who knows how to run the line first before you worry about individual talent.
     
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  7. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Oh, I completely agree. Maybe I didn't stress it enough in my post, but both Jackson and Eichenberg are failing due to poor technique that's 100% coachable. Some of what Jackson is doing drives me nuts- for instance, he'll stand straight up on a pass play and extend his hands...which is always going to be game over (your arms will never be stronger than a rushing lineman's body). Terrible technique that's usually coached out at the high school level.

    Eichenberg has the same issues but they're smaller- he takes the snap and makes a big step outside, so the DT just cuts inside him. Same problem but on a lesser scale. His stance is there though and he shows the fundamentals, it just hasn't 100% clicked yet in every phase of the game.

    That's 1000% on the coaching for both players.
     
  8. Dan S

    Dan S Phins up!

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    New. OL coach first. Then if Grier is still in charge I wouldn't trust him to draft a quality lineman so I'd be looking to FA.
     
  9. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    HOW the OL is fixed is one of the most crucial things for Grier and Flores. If we can replicate some other teams (e.g., NE) and fix it through better coaching, mostly mid/late round picks and FA that don't cost too much, that frees up tremendous resources for other needs (RB, WR, etc.). Otherwise, it'll become a lot tougher to build a SB contender due to resource limitations.
     
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  10. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    Most importantly, I think that the entire offensive coaching staff needs to go, while Flores is put on notice that if the next batch don't do better, then he's gone too. There isn't a coach on the team on the offensive side of the ball that's getting what he needs to out of his players, and the OC/OCs are responsible for the mess that is the line as much as the OL coaches are.

    As far as the players go, I think that all of them except for Davis need to be brought back. You can't really cut most of the young guys due to cap consqeuences anyways. But we need to bring in a high quality veteran OT as a clear starter (LT or RT, whichever you think is more important with Tua at QB), and a clear upgrade at center.

    And then let Jackson, Kindley, Hunt, Eichenberg and Deiter battle it out to see who starts at the other three spots and where, and the other two become your primary backups. I think that every one of them has a lot more potential than they've shown, and the poor play is a combination of terrible coaching and the fact that we've thrown a bunch of inexperienced young guys out there together next to one another in a bad system. I think that any of them, were they the only young player on a good line on another team, would look much better than they have with us.
     
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  11. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    Last edited: Dec 15, 2021
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  12. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    It has to be a coaching issue. Until we get a good OL coach we won’t even know which players have it at the the NFL level. Just look at the purge, Billy Turner was a turnstile here but after a year of training and rebuilding his technique under a proper OL coach in Denver he’s been playing near pro bowl level for the Broncos and Packers. The on,y reason he hasn’t been a long term successful starter in Miami is coaching.
    There’s nothing about the current OL play that suggests out OL coaching has improved despite the rotating door of OL coaches since we drafted Turner.
     
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  13. Rouk

    Rouk Well-Known Member

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    Thats my main Issue with flores and grier. Okay we want to go young at oline fine whatever. Then go out and get an experienced oline coach. Nope instead we have the young oline with a rookie coaching them. Doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that would be a failure.
     
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  14. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    It's absolutely a coaching issue. Sadly, the best line coach we've had in the past decade was snorting coke with prostitutes in the training facility. Looking back, it's sort of a shame we couldn't overlook that. Nobody respectable has been brought in as a replacement though over the past 3-5 seasons.

    I have no idea why we can't poach the OL coach from a perennial tough school like Clemson, Notre Dame or Alabama. There are literally THOUSANDS of offensive line coaches out there at all three levels. It all comes down to fundamentals and chemistry, it's definitely not rocket science.
     
  15. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Draft Linderbaum
     
  16. firedan

    firedan Well-Known Member

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    Sadly one of the few consistently bad lines for what seems like forever.
     
  17. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Dave DeGuglielmo wasn't half bad, definitely better than who we have now. I don't understand why we kept signing him and then releasing him. We signed and released him about 3 times. He's the best oline coach we've had in the last decade, although that's not saying much.
     
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  18. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    It seems like we've been trying to make do with an OL that's "good enough" for this entire century. Bringing in players who should be good enough instead of signing/drafting high end talent has been the MO for this team literally for decades. I blame the current malaise on coaching more than anything. We may have missed with Jackson, but the fact that nobody does well under this regime makes me wonder if that's even the case. In spite of statements the contrary, OL has not been the priority and most of our problems would be fixed had it been properly addressed. I seriously would not be unhappy with an offseason that focused almost solely on rebuilding the OL because a dominant OL makes defense and skill players much better than a group of turnstiles.
     
  19. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    The team has failed at it in a variety of ways. Sparano was an OL coach, and he couldn't get it done. Other than #1 pick Jake Long, he and his coaches couldn't develop anyone or keep them healthy. Philbin was an OL coach, and he couldn't get it done. It was just a complete and total failure.

    Gase is a complete fraud who doesn't give a rats behind about fundamental football. Its no shock that he didn't care about building the team properly, because he's more like a 12 year old playing Madden, trying to create a fun big play on every snap.

    With Flores, I think that he made some huge mistakes firing coaches after 2019. He badly misjudged his ability to hire better ones, and IMO has been whiffing the last two offseasons in trying to get guys to come and work for him. Our OC situation is an outright disaster, which has in turn trickled down to every level of that side of the ball. Bad and/or inexperienced coaches can't form a group of raw young players into a cohesive unit. Its too much to ask, and we're seeing the results. Can he hire better ones this offseason? I'm not optimistic that he can, and I feel that eventually, that will be what ends his career with the Dolphins unless someone falls into his lap.
     
  20. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    That is not true. Lately Miami has drafted high. It wasn't that long ago that 4 out of the 5 linemen were first round picks. The current line has a 1st rounder, two 2nd rounders, and a 3rd rounder with a 4th round back up. That is trying to inject real talent to the offensive line.

    The problem is they have failed. Since the Sparano year, they have failed bringing high in free agents and they have failed drafting high.

    There isn't just one way they are failing. They are failing in many different ways.

    IMO, I don't care if they go through the draft or sign free agents. They just need to do something that works. One is bringing in a new offensive line coach, someone who knows how to build a line. The young guys need to dedicate their entire offseason to improving. They need to sign someone big and at least someone who can make sure Davis is off the team next year.

    With the talent on the offensive line, it should at least not be by far the worst in the league. There is no excuse for this.
     
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  21. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    I stand corrected. Just can't see why the most important group beyond QB is a perennial failure when some teams seem to always have stout OLs.
     
  22. plc001

    plc001 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This is the equivalent of trying to find a running back during Marino’s tenure :)
     
  23. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    To be fair, Dan used to audible out of running plays with regularity. It used to drive me crazy when he did it on third-and-short and we wound up punting the ball.
     
  24. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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  25. plc001

    plc001 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    yeah, but I’d audible to if I was Marino and expected to hand the ball off to Terry Kirby or Irving Spikes. :)
     
  26. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not really complaining because I probably would have done the same thing if I had his arm and freedom.
     
  27. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Agreed. The failure of the offensive line for the Miami Dolphins has been frustrating. Even when they built a good offensive line they couldn't stay healthy.
     
  28. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    Which all begs the question - Why? How can an NFL team have one of the worst offensive lines in the league every season for a decade straight? How can that even be possible?

    For me, the most reasonable answer is bad management, bad coaching, bad scouting, ect. When the same people are making the same mistakes over and over, then those people ( in this case, our front office) are the problem.
     
  29. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Some of it is bad luck.

    Are they really making the same mistake over and over again? I feel they have been making different mistakes.

    I also don't think the scouting has been that bad since a lot of linemen become decent when they leave Miami.
     
  30. JPPT1974

    JPPT1974 2022 Mother's Day and May Flowers!

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    Just hope they can fix this and not let poor Tua keep on getting hurt.
     
  31. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    For the past two years, at least, Eichenberg was the only OL player we've taken that was projected a day-one potential starter. Everyone else has been projects with a ton of potential upside...which is great...but not as day-1 starters, and especially not all at once. This year in particular was "trial by fire" and nobody with any common sense could have expected us to have a chance the first few months.

    If we didn't jettison a few key veterans last season, then now would be about the time you'd start seeing Hunt or Eichenberg coming into their own. We don't though because the line is in such shambles, it's very hard t experience any type of growth. Hunt stuffs a key block- awesome! That play it was only two defenders mauling Tua instead of three. That's the type of year we're having since individual efforts don't actually matter that much since there's no chemistry, no cohesion.

    Most don't want to hear this, but we actually may have most of our long-term OL starters already in place. But we've done everything backwards and the coaching makes zero sense. Jackson in particular is getting mauled, he's in the backfield almost every single play from being shoved back...anyone can plainly see he shouldn't be starting. Yet if you start Kindley or Jones, there's only marginal improvement at best and Jackson isn't getting reps. He needs reps to improve, but he doesn't deserve the reps- Jackson's a complete bust unless we bench him the next few seasons like another Iggy.

    What's the answer? Like I said, more reps with guys who aren't ready...that's the only way past this and we won't be drafting an entire new line next year. The thing with the top lines in the league- they're basically the same 4 or 5 every year with one guy rotating in once he's ready. We don't even have a foundation for that- we have two decent prospects that may or may not develop (Hunt/Eichenberg). If it were me, I'd bring in veterans in all 5 positions and force our young guys to compete for playing time. We have to have a starting point to build the line and five average, middle of the road brawlers is the best we could hope for next year.
     
  32. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    The brain drain that happened when we ditched veterans is a partial but significant cause.

    Thinking back to last season I remember being pleasantly shocked to see that we had an OL that seemed to be over-performing. I'd have to look it up but it was one of our dual OCs who was the OL coach.

    We moved that guy up to become a rookie dual OC and replaced him with a rookie OL coach.

    It's actually possible we had a decent OL coach and because we couldn't get a decent replacement OC we had to shuffle.

    The coaching rotations are one major mystery I would like to understand. Who's doing that and why? Is it just bad luck with coaches moving on for their own reasons or is the Dolphins FO firing them or causing them to leave somehow....?
     
  33. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    I remember reading an article from the 1970s about how Don Shula turned the Dolphins around. He was very big on getting former NFL players to be coaches because players respected that the coaches knew what had to be done to succeed in the NFL.
    For me this really should go double for the OL, give the nature and mentality of OLmen as well as the difficulties of plating the position in the NFL. There must be some former pro-bowler or All-pro who wants to coach in the NFL. Find one and give him the job. Fund someone the players can respect, someone who they can believe will give them good advice on techniques, someone who has faced the Aaron Donalds of the world.
     
  34. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Eichenberg and Jackson both should have been projected as day one starters since they were picked in the first two rounds. However, both are looking like busts at this point. Eichenberg hasn't shown much of anything either. Hunt is the only young lineman who has shown he is not a bust.

    This all largely falls on Grier and our bad oline scouting. He is the one responsible for drafting terrible linemen, and jettisoning experienced veterans. He is also partially responsible for hiring and firing coaches.
     
  35. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Jackson had the bone marrow transplant to save his sister's life, and he was out of football for almost a year when we drafted him. Everybody knew he was still rehabbing and gaining strength, so he had very little chance of being a day-one starter.
     
  36. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Then he should not have been drafted day one. You should never draft developmental project players in the first round of the draft. Same goes for Iggy.
     
  37. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    Can’t agree with this. Firstly, every player drafted is developmental. Secondly and more importantly it’s about what the olayer’s ceiling is and how confident you are that he’ll get there. When teams take chances on players and it works you get someone much better than the higher floor/lower ceiling alternatives,. Patrick Mahomes sat out his first year while the KC coaches worked on his fundamentals and developed him as a player and I think they’re happy with how that turned out,
     
  38. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    If I were calling the shots, I would take the stance that I am done letting this line be the anchor of the team.

    If there are young (or youngish), solid, established linemen that want to be a Miami Dolphin, I would aggressively try to add them to the team. If there is a talented lineman on the board when drafting, they would be strongly considered.

    I cannot think of one player on the line where I think to myself, "It is unnecessary to try and get better at this position." I do think that some of our young guys probably will improve, but I am absolutely not willing to risk the 2022 season on Player X evolving.

    I would bring in as much talent as I could and let the chips fall as they may in the preseason. If that means we are trading Austin Jackson for a 7th round pick because he can't play his way onto the field, it sorta is what it is.

    In my mind, there are 5 open spots going into next season. Prove you belong, and you will have your place. Nobody should be getting anything handed to them.
     
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  39. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    I don't agree. Not every player needs as much development, some are ready to start and contribute significantly from day one, and those should be your first rounders. Secondly, a players ceiling is hard to predict and is a very subjective measure, you should not be grading players as first rounder just based on the perceived potential cieling of what you think they might develop into. That's for the later rounds where you can afford to take chances. In the first round you should be drafting based on proven talent and production that translates into at least a day one starter or significant contributor. If not you end up with guys like Jackson and Iggy who have no business being anywhere near the starting lineup going into their third year in the league.

    When you could have had several other players who are already tearing up the leugue right now.
     
  40. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    It's all a philosophical debate. Nobody knows who is going to be good, let alone great. Everybody wants to consider Tom Brady as a brilliant selection by New England. And whereas it was a great pick, it was not a brilliant (and certainly not prescient) selection for the pure fact that the Pats passed him up five times before they took him. And although Jackson's selection was perhaps half a round high, few people believed he didn't have the potential to develop into a steady tackle. Maybe with another team, he would, will, or can.

    And it might be hard for others to believe, but I still think Noah can develop into a decent CB.
     

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