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Tua is not the Problem

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, Nov 6, 2021.

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  1. Rouk

    Rouk Well-Known Member

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    The Deshaun Watson-less Texans now have as many wins as the Watson led Texans from last year.

    Waiting for the Watson lovers to spin that.
     
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  2. Pennington's Limp Arm

    Pennington's Limp Arm Well-Known Member

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    Mills has been just fine.
    86.2 QBR and most 300 passing yard games among all rookie QBs.

    Considering the disaster he is working with in Houston and considering everyone laughed at them for picking him in the 3rd round.

    In Comparison ;
    Mac Jones - 90.2 (probably inflated, only one on a good team)
    Justin Fields - 73.2
    Trevor Lawrence - 70.6
    Zach Wilson -67.9
     
  3. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    So what you are saying is that Miami needs to trade 3 first round picks for Mills
     
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  4. Pennington's Limp Arm

    Pennington's Limp Arm Well-Known Member

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    At the very least I’m implying we dodged a bullet!!!
    A LOT of people wanted to stay at 3 and select one of these QBs.

    Meanwhile there is a strong argument that both Tua (and Davis Mills) are better than all of them. Plus we got Waddle.
     
  5. canesz06

    canesz06 Well-Known Member

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    So are you saying that Watson isn't a better QB than tua? If not for his legal issues, can you honestly say that any team, if they had the option, would take tua over Watson?
     
  6. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Tua wasn't even mentioned in his post. He just lives rent free in your head doesn't he?
     
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  7. canesz06

    canesz06 Well-Known Member

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    Right, right.... Because he wasnt implying anythjng. I like how you avoided the question though. Kind of cowardice but I've come to expect that from you
     
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  8. Vinny Fins

    Vinny Fins Feisty Brooklyn dolfan ️‍

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    Correction: get absolutely blown out by yhe texans.

    oh no, we struggled to win against an opponent missing our WR1 and best defensive player other than X WHO WAS GETTING THEIR SECOND LOOK AT US IN A MONTH.

    But we struggled to a WIN. That is what Tua does: wins. And that’s good.
     
  9. Rouk

    Rouk Well-Known Member

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    Thats not the scenario. You’re not getting watson free of legal issues or without a ton draft picks. I’ll ask you this what is the difference between kirk cousins statically and watson. Would you trade three first rounders for cousins or is cousins not elite even though he has all the numbers.
     
  10. canesz06

    canesz06 Well-Known Member

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    I wasn't really talking about trading for him. I was just asking if given the choice, which QB would you rather have. Straight up trade, Tua or Watson? Also, I would not give 3 first rounders for anyone. Except for maybe Tom Brady 10 years ago
     
  11. Vinny Fins

    Vinny Fins Feisty Brooklyn dolfan ️‍

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    But… that’s not the scenario available, is it?
    Its draft capital, plus watson being a gropey scumbag, plus cap hit vs tua.
    Thats the reality.


    Where do you rank Tua among all starters in the nfl now? And where do you dee his ceiling? Thats the question, because everything else as far as team construction and contending window hinges on that
     
  12. Rouk

    Rouk Well-Known Member

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    I don’t think you will find many people saying tua is better than watson. If watson was a free agent and wanted to come here i dont think moving off tua would be controversial at all.
     
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  13. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    He's a better quarterback nobody has said Tua is better than him. But, the fact that they would have to mortgage the future on him and the fact that he's a major weirdo creep is off-putting to most normal people.
     
  14. canesz06

    canesz06 Well-Known Member

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    I think he's in the 15-20 range and in my opinion, that's his ceiling
     
  15. Vinny Fins

    Vinny Fins Feisty Brooklyn dolfan ️‍

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    I think hes 12-15 roughly agree there and ceiling is 8. Just curious why you dont think he can grow? And hypothetically, with the 15th best qb, you dont think you can win with that?
     
  16. JJ_79

    JJ_79 Well-Known Member

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  17. canesz06

    canesz06 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think he's durable enough to grow. I also question his arm strength and decision making. As far as the 15th best QB, teams have won with worse I suppose but, are you happy with your top 5 QB pick being 15th best? That's a wasted pick to me
     
  18. Rouk

    Rouk Well-Known Member

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    Agreed this is the whole debate tbh. Ive never thought tua has played bad enough to consider using all of those draft picks and moving on from him already considering how much talent we still need to add on offense seems dumb to me.
     
  19. Vinny Fins

    Vinny Fins Feisty Brooklyn dolfan ️‍

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    Durability is overblown, primarily because his OL is terrible
     
  20. canesz06

    canesz06 Well-Known Member

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    How is durability over blown? How many games has he missed in two years here? He was hurt a lot in college too bad Alabama had a fantastic o-line
     
  21. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    It's all about opportunity cost. A trade for Watson would likely have cost us three first round picks and other high draft compensation. Mortgaging the future for a top-5 QB might make sense in some scenarios but when you've got gaping holes on the roster, it's probably not wise. IMO, those assets + Tua are more likely to result in a better squad than Watson - those assets would. Especially since he would take a huge bite out of that expected salary cap loot next offseason.

    For me, the entire debate is summed up thusly: We didn't draft Burrow or Herbert, but is the guy we took a keeper? Why shouldn't we find out before jettisoning him? Arguing about how we missed out is silly in the midst of arguably the strongest QB play we've seen since Pennington. Some of us have dug themselves into trenches and almost nothing that Tua does is going to get them to come out willingly. Some, in spite of protestations to the contrary, are rooting for the team while rooting against him. They want to win, but don't want him to be the reason why.
     
  22. Vinny Fins

    Vinny Fins Feisty Brooklyn dolfan ️‍

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    Because the OL is why hes been injured. Took a unabated shot to the ribs in week 2 because his lineman whiffed clean. Its not the same injury.
    A lot of folks ran RT17 out of town chasing a mythical upgrade and are intent on doing the same thing. You can win with a qb in the 8th-15th best range. Easily. Especially with the defense we have. Maybe try upgrading the 32nd ranked OL or 31st ranked rbs? Just mussing aloud.
    Thats what it is about. Lets split 8th-15th snd say he averages year to year to be 11th best. Can you win with that? Hell yeah. And say watson is 5th best.
    How much is that worth? A win a season?
    Then offset the cost of who you would have to cut or cant sign to fit watson, and the picks you cant use on other holes.
    Wouldnt it be better to invest that capital where there is MORE to gain? Just a cost analysis.
     
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  23. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

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    Well its not like its much better to have an undrafted QB be the 15th best. People need to get over that as well as the Herbert thing as its irrelevant in terms of where they are or where they are going.
     
  24. Kud_II

    Kud_II Realist Division

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    Doesn't quite seem like you were referring to me but I can run with it...

    Precisely thanks friend. As I said, Tua's ceiling may be just barely average? So long as he struggles on his long(er) throws and I truly hope he can fix it. But until such a thing is shown he is def below Wentz in overall ability. Only people with aqua shades can't see that. You can talk about durability, Tua has a history with the same type problem.

    I didn't say Wentz was the best QB in the NFL. But would certainly be an upgrade over TUA right now, and likely for the forseeable future assuming both QBs stay healthy. Sorry I forget who mention his age, but c'mon bruh, reaching hard there. Wentz is 28, not exactly ancient in QB years esp these days.
     
  25. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Sadly, I don't think the Watson conversation is over. Once those charges are settled, I wouldn't be shocked if Ross makes another run for him. And it's not a bad move- I just personally don't want the guy due to his past. I would rather see those 1st rounders go towards the line and RB to give us a complete offense.
     
  26. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    In Tua's defense, you need more than 1.5 seconds to throw the deeper routes. The good news is that he had a little time last night and hopefully moving forward, the line continues to gel. If I were to guess today, I'd say Tua is above average...maybe a top 7 to 10 QB long-term. But you give him a stud RB and better protection and who knows...maybe he does become a Brees-type of QB for the next 10+ years.
     
  27. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    You're probably right about that. I'm convinced that the drama surrounding the trade is largely responsible for our horrible start. Along with injuries and horrible play calling on both sides of the ball.

    But I think that Ross will see how many #1 jerseys are selling and consider the value of moving on from a popular (if divisive) player with good skills to an unpopular (but almost disliked by consensus) player with superior talent. We saw what Watson could do when he had Hopkins and *ahem* Fuller lined up wide. Then we saw what he couldn't do when those guys were no longer available. If we put a trash roster around him, he'll be exciting but ultimately, our win totals probably won't be higher.

    Like I said, it's opportunity cost. What can we get with those picks? Another Waddle? Or Phillips? Or Jackson or Igbinoghene?
     
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  28. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Tua played pretty bad last night. He is going to have to seriously step it up if they are going to have any success from here on out.
     
  29. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

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    He really didn't
     
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  30. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    He threw one bad pass and made up for it immediately after.

    I feel like he did exactly what he needed to do against a top five defense in a hostile environment.
     
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  31. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Not his fault the refs take away two first downs and Dolphins put in Brissett on a 3rd and 1.
     
  32. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I don't think the trade drama played as big of a factor as people think. If I had to guess, I'd say it was:
    • Jones and Howard both hurt early on- didn't have the explosiveness to fully run the cover zero
    • Tua was injured (and Brissett doesn't fit this offense)
    • The line had severe growing pains/the QB had severe growing pains behind this line
    • Our WR core was wiped out for a large stretch, hence Waddle breaking the rookie record
    • We just had a brutal early stretch- starting 0-5 was a high possibility no matter how fast we started
    Looking back at the actual games though
    • We beat the Pats in week 1
    • We had the Raiders beaten in overtime and the flags just didn't go our way
    • We dominated the Jags but couldn't score
    • We hung with the Falcons but couldn't finish drives
    • We beat up the Colts for a large part of the game, but couldn't score
    • The Bills and Bucks kicked our asses
    Our only ugly losses were really the Bucs and the Bills...all the other games were close. That's why I kept saying that this team is better than it's record; we just needed to figure out how to close out games. Once Tua, Jones and X were healthy, everything changed very quickly.

    It still kills me- we should have beat the Raiders, Jags and Falcons. Can you imagine being 11-5 right now and leading the division? We were so incredibly close to making that a reality; we just weren't 100% yet.
     
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  33. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Watching Waddle, I disagree with the part about Waddle breaking the rookie record because WR core was wiped out.

    I think he would be getting it even if Fuller was playing up to what we hoped he would. Waddle gets open and catches the ball.
     
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  34. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    It's deeper than that, though. Had we won ONE of those games, we'd be 9-6, which is a heckuva difference from 8-7. The reason I think the trade discussion impacted the team is because of how the body language shifted when Tua replaced Brissett in the Ravens game, which was his first game after the deadline. Your reasons are much more objective than mine, so I'm doing the same opinion peddling that some of our peers are engaging in.

    But let me add two significant things that I believe also played a role in our bad start:
    1. The new offense is an acquired taste. It was developed for Tua, so losing him in the Buffalo game required GodStud to adapt to Brissett, which the failed miserably to do.
    2. It was reported that Flo took over the defense in the Baltimore game. Clearly, his guys prefer playing aggressively balls out. They're rewarding him for flipping that switch with uncanny performance. It'll be interesting if the coaching carousel takes Boyer out of town in the offseason.

    The difference in this team is so stark, comparing it to night and day is actually more of a statement of fact than a clichè.
     
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  35. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    His connection with Tua is a joy to watch. I haven't even checked to see whether the Burrow/Chase and Hurts/Smith reconnections have yielded similar results.
     
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  36. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    They are all three very good wide receivers
     
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  37. Vinny Fins

    Vinny Fins Feisty Brooklyn dolfan ️‍

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    For tua to reach his ceiling, he needs support.
    Need a WR 2/3 depending on your view of DVP. Need to resign Big Mike. Need an RB AND TO UPGRADE 3 OL SPOTS.

    and yes, a good quarterback should elevate the players around him but there is an assumption of a base level of competence there which we are not meeting at these five positions. You cant put dog**** out there and tell a QB to elevate it and 5 of the 11 spots are below the nfl minimum threshold of acceptable. You can overcome 1 spot, maybe 2 like that, but not 5. And lets be fair, RB might just be bad because the OL is putrid. It’s impossible to tell.
     
  38. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    I pointed this out before, but ESPN's Run Block Win Rate (a decent attempt at an OL measure for run blocking) had us at #9 a week ago:
    https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id...opping-blocking-leaderboard-win-rate-rankings

    For Pass Block Win Rate we're dead last. That kind of makes sense to me. There are too many 2nd and 1 or 3rd and 1 where Gaskin can't find the hole or push through it. It's why I'm totally on board with taking a RB fairly high.

    This next draft is almost as crucial as the last two. We need another WR (can't rely on Waddle only), a RB and multiple OL. On defense I'd only go LB if a really hot prospect falls. Hopefully we get this next draft or two right and we might be ready for a SB run (unless we get really lucky this year of course!).
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2021
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  39. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Wait a minute. He played pretty bad last night?

    Tua was 19/26 for 198 yards, 1 TD, 1 ain’t with a qbr of 91.51. Take away that 1 interception, that wasn’t significant at all and his qbr jumps up to 107.53. The league average is what, 93ish?

    Going up against one of the league’s BEST defenses…a defense as good, if not better than ours I actually was expecting Tua’s performance to be even worse, especially how the Saints defense destroyed the Buccaneers last week.

    You belittle Tua’s performance last night. I actually compliment New Orleans’ defense…and further compliment Tagovailoa for what he actually was able to do against that beast.
     
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  40. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I pretty much said the same thing in another thread about the draft picks- OL, WR, RB and a stud LB if he's there at a value.

    I don't know if we can win these next two games- I feel fairly confident we can though. And if we do, who knocks us out of the playoffs in the AFC? Probably not the Ravens, Pats or Indy. Maybe Buffalo or KC if we draw them early. But the rest I'm not terrified of, not with this defense. We just need to win two more.

    I know that's a big ask- but think back two months ago when we were 1-7 and I was saying we'd go on a win streak. I don't sound nearly as crazy today, LOL!
     
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