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Flawed Process

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by tirty8, Jan 22, 2022.

  1. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    I have doing some reflecting on the last few weeks and kinda thinking about the future in Miami. One part of the process has really stood out to me as a major mistake.

    I am a Tua fan, but I think that the Dolphins recommitting to Tua as our starter going forward seems very, very stupid.

    What we have essentially done is created "right answers" in the interview process. Just by the information that is widely gathered, pretty much any coach that would not want Tua is probably not going to get the job. Essentially, you almost asking candidates to sugarcoat or outright lie.

    I think an instrumental part of the process is listening to others and what they think about your team. To my knowledge, we currently have 6-7 candidates that we are interviewing - these guys are all worthy of consideration of being the next HC of the Miami Dolphins. We should listen to them. If we interview them in a setting where they think that they can be totally honest, we should be able gather some really good intel about our own team. Imagine if 5 candidates said that they did not think Tua was the guy. I am a Tua fan, and I would go home and rethink things.

    There are a few candidates whose blatant honesty is something I covet. The first is Brian Daboll. I think if Daboll is not too keen on Tua, and he is talking a lot in the interview about bringing in Mitch Trubisky, that would be an opinion that would carry a lot of weight in my mind.

    If Mike McDaniel came into the interview talking about trading for Jimmy Garrapolo, again that would carry tremendous weight.

    In both of those cases, I could really get clear information. Daboll has a ton of first hand experience, and we have a player that I am familiar with to compare Tua too. If he said that Mitch is a better NFL player than Tua, I would be concerned. Same with McDaniel and Jimmy G. I really am not a big Garrapolo fan. If two people that I respected ultimately told me that these guys give the Phins a better chance of winning a SB, this is information that would matter to me.

    There is another guy that I would absolutely love to hear from - Leslie Frazier. This is a situation that concerns me. I have not seen Frazier's name being thrown around for openings since his firing. I could see him thinking to himself that he has not had a lot of opportunities for a second bite at the apple, and I could see him aggressively pursuing this option. Could it be a case where he enters an interview and states that he "absolutely loves Tua" and has "waited his whole career to coach someone like him." Yeah. I could see him doing that and thinking, "this will take care of itself one way or another in a year, why not tell them what they wanna hear, and land the job in the meantime."

    I really think that this is tragic because I think Frazier has a lot to offer. He has taken Tua's lunch every time that they have played. If he came in and was honest, and said that Tua was one of the easiest QBs to coach against, that would matter.

    I am not saying that any of this would happen, but the truth is, I would want to know what these coaches really think.

    Right now, I think that there are really only two candidates that could be honest - Daboll and Quinn. I think that these guys are gonna get jobs, so they can be choosy and a bit more honest.

    I say that with hesitation because aside from Tua because I still think the Miami job is a solid job. The Giants, Dolphins, and Bears all have big problems from the offensive standpoint. The Giants have a lot of questionable contracts, so getting people off the roster is complicated. The Bears have given their first round pick this year to get Fields who a new coach may or may not want. This situation is similar but more expensive than the Dolphins. Now look at Miami, essentially the only two people on the entire offense that you are stuck with is Waddle and Tua. Cutting just about anyone would be easy because there are not a lot of big contracts on the offense. The defense is great. I think even those guys might be tempted to fudge the truth a bit about Tua because Miami is such a good starting point for a first year head coach.

    At the end of the day, I really do think that we started this whole process on the wrong foot. I think it is in everyone's best interests to hear what the coaches truly think.
     
  2. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    To your point, we had a number of coaches who saw fault in Tannehill, yet Gase said that he thought RT could be an all-pro. And Gase got the job. So that's definitely part of the process but I don't think it's a bad thing.

    After all, Tua's on the team going into year three. You can point to a few games where the offense held us back, but the vast majority of the losses came with Brissett on the field. And the vast majority of the wins wasn't the QB, it was the defense completely taking control of the game. So it's a tough conversation on what we need to get to the "next level" (playoffs). I personally do not think it's a better quarterback. Sure, it would help...it always helps. But most would point a finger at every other aspect of the offense.
     
  3. Dolfanalyst

    Dolfanalyst Active Member

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    The problem as I see it is that the Dolphins keep replicating a potentially highly conflictual situation where the three most important personnel in the organization -- the GM, the HC, and the QB -- are not on the same page. One or more of the three has been a holdover from a previous regime, and that stands to occur again here.
     
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  4. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    Okay, putting my pro-Tua position aside for a moment...

    What else are they supposed to do? The upcoming QB draft class is farm from inspiring and the quarterbacks slated to be free agents aren't that hot either.
     
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  5. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    What they need to do is completely take Tua out of the HC evaluation process. Just hire the best coach and let him do what he thinks is best, instead of forcing Tua down the next coach's throat.

    But then again, if they were already thinking that way they would have kept Flores.
     
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  6. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    Let the HC determine who they want at QB. Instead of more yes men, find the right person and get out of their way. If they say mean words or don’t wanna blow smoke up Ross’s you know what, let them do their thing. If they want to ever turn this around they’re going to need to get some stability and stop shuffling HC every 2-3 years.
     
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  7. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Agree with the first part: you give the people you hire the power to implement their system.

    I don't agree with the 2nd part: stability is a consequence of success. You don't force stability in spite of success. Since most Hall of Fame coaches prove their worth fairly early (i.e., within 3 years they usually build a consistent winner, with some notable exceptions like Landry of course), I'm totally fine with this max 3-4 year test period for both QBs and HCs. Keep searching until you find the right ones.
     
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  8. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    We're rolling with Tua whether people like that or not next year. Feel free to be a Chargers fan until otherwise. With that said...we won't win a damn thing until we get a franchise QB in here. Then all this stuff, all this confusion, all the drama, the coaching carousels will all end.
     
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  9. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    We should always try to upgrade every position, including quarterback. The GM's primary focus heading into the office should be on how he can make the team better before he goes home.

    With that being said, improvement should never be focused on one position, especially the one that's hardest to find in the league (if not in pro sports). Flo's cardinal sin was not losing faith in Tua; it was expressing his opinion that he can't win with his QB when he didn't have an option. I was a warehouse manager for 20+ years and if I ever had a team lead tell me he couldn't do his job with the type of forklifts we used, I would replace the team lead because his job isn't to quit. If Flo determined he can't win without a top-10 QB, he should have been fired.

    IMO, Tua's on a very short leash because the next coach's primary focus will be on how to win with him under center. I have zero doubts we will have a much better foundation around him and I suspect we're going to hire a coach who offers solutions instead of theories on how to make him better. We'll all see Tua for who he is, for good or ill, next season.

    The problem with the Watson debacle wasn't with trying to obtain a better QB; it was losing control of how that improvement would occur. I think 90% of Dolphins fans (including me) would have no problem trading for him if it wasn't for his current off-the-field situation.

    Tua's not Dan Marino. But he's also not the QB version of Austin Jackson.
     
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  10. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    Except, you can't. Whatever coach comes in is going to have to decide what to do with the QB position this year, and sticking with Tua is going to be an option - a likely option given the free agents/draft prospects that may be available.
     
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  11. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    I don't see it as flawed until and unless a coach presents a viable alternative that Grier and Ross just completely dismiss. However, the likelihood that it both happens and we find out is mostly nil.

    The fact is that making a significant upgrade from Tua this year is extremely difficult and options will be limited. The truly elite guys - Rogers, Wilson and Watson - will all be absurdly expensive and we would face much competition and ultimately we wouldn't be making the choice, they would. In Watson's case, there is major baggage that comes along with ofc.

    After that trio, you are looking at taking a chance on a Baker Mayfield or Daniel Jones, trying Jamis Winston or Teddy Bridgewater, or paying good draft picks for mid tier guys like Carr or Cousins. No thanks across the board. In the draft we will be picking fairly late in a very underwhelming QB class. I think I'll pass on the next JP Losman/Brady Quinn/Geno Smith.

    The most sensible option is to build the team, revamp the line and weapons and get a functional, knowledgeable staff that can put together an actual gameplan and coach people up and see what happens. So the idea for Grier and Ross is to see which person can best execute that plan, while leaving open the door that if Tua sinks, 2023 we have two #1s and a better QB class (most likely).
     
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  12. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    Add in the fact that Rogers is a bit... off-kilter, to say the least... yeah.
     
  13. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
    This right here. The next coach has a mulligan year where he can either fix what's broken or start the rebuild in earnest (again) the following year. I'd suggest that if Tua is not our starter in 2023, then Grier won't be our GM, either. In either case, next year has the chance to be a great season with the right hire. I think our floor would be 7-10 with minimal changes.
     
  14. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    He's gone from being quirky and fun to "oh-sh*t-I-don't-think-he's-kidding" and worrisome in record time.
     
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  15. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    One thing that I would really advocate for in the interview process is listening. With all sincerity, I would ask these perspective coaches what they would like to do at QB. I am with you that I do not think that this is a great year for QBs in the draft either. If a coach suggested targeting a specific QB in the draft and potentially moving up, I would listen to what he likes about the player. I would review the tape with with my scouting department and see if we are on the same page. I do not think I would immediately dismiss an idea without due diligence. If I did my due diligence, and felt like we were far apart, I do not think I would hire him.

    My thoughts are this: I think it is pretty much public knowledge that this is not a year to get a QB in the draft. I bet most of these guys know that. Perhaps they may see Tua as a placeholder, or they might suggest a player that they feel could compete. If a coach told me that his plan was to send a mid round pick to Philly for the Minch, and he let him compete for a starting job while looking to 2023 for a QB in the draft, I would have zero problem bringing him into the next round of interviews.

    My goal for the first round of interviews would be to advance coaches that had viable plans at QB, clear visions for offensive and defensive scheme, and staffs that I liked. I do think that it is important to hear the entire vision. I am also okay with disagreement. If a coach told me that he really does not think that Tua is a franchise QB, but agreed that this is not the year to make a move, but he said that he would do his absolute best to develop Tua, and would be okay with re-evaluating at the end of the season, I would not have a problem with hiring a guy like that if he has a reputation of having a strong integrity.

    I really do think that honesty and openness matters in a job like this.
     
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  16. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    The main thing we should NOT do is hire a coach because we think he is the best "fit" for Tua. That's why I don't want daboll, the only reason we are really considering him is because of Tua, not because his is the best HC candidate. That's exactly what we should not do is let Tua influence the coaching decision. If Harbaugh or Pederson want to coach the team but are not the best "fit" for Tua, then **** Tua and hire the best coach period.
     
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  17. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    My last point was with Flores in mind. I don’t believe you fire a coach in year 3 that’s already posted 2 winning seasons.

    fwiw, Bellicheck only had 1 winning season in his first 6 as a NFL HC and that was his 4th season in.
     
  18. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    That's fair.
     
  19. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    I agree in principle with what you posted. But not in practicality. To regurgitate Flo's regurgitation, Tua is our quarterback. If we don't have a better option, the next coach absolutely has to present a plan to fit with him.
     
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  20. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    I disagree - Daboll is a legit candidate completely independent of Tua. His familiarity with Tua is an added feature, not the reason he's interviewing. If he can get Tua's career on track and turn him into an elite passer, groovy. If not, then it would be apparent that the issue is Tua at that point, and I would have confidence in letting Daboll be a big influence on our QB in 2023.
     
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  21. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    No, Tua is our QB for next year. We are not married to him long term. We can draft or sign a better QB in 2023, so our HC decision should be entirely independent of Tua. We are not going to sign a good HC to just a one year deal.
     
  22. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    What has Daboll done other than ride Allen's coat-tails? It just seems like another Gase type hire when we signed Gase because we thought he would work well with Tannehill. It's another mistake, which I completely expect Grier and Co. to make yet again. They never learn...

    BTW, Tannehill just showed once again why he's not a franchise QB. Burrow and the Bengals just knocked them out...
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2022
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  23. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    You really think that? Don't forget it's dumbo Ross we're talking about here that has to fire Grier. No, I think Grier has convinced Ross the problem is always someone else. I think he is our GM for several more years at least.
     
  24. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    I HOPE we're not married to him long term. The worst thing would be if Tua shows some progress but not enough and we keep him. Say Tua goes up to ~95 rating, which I think is possible. Then what? I would trade him right there. For me, either he's close to that ~100 rating mark in year 3 or he's not good enough. I have no confidence in Grier to make the right decision in that situation.
     
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  25. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    I don't see the issue with Tua being the starter next year regardless of who the coach is. There are literally no other appealing options other than to see what he's got in his third year. You have to hope his trajectory mirrors what Drew Brees did, but that's kind of a hail Mary.
    We definitely need to upgrade the backup position. Jacoby Brissett is absolutely awful. You Don't win in this league without good quarterback play. You can fool your way to the playoffs without one, but eventually you get exposed.
    This IS a flawed process until we fix the quarterback position. Look at Cincinnati. They have been the laughing stock of the NFL for a very long time. They bullcrapped their way to the playoffs with Dalton a few times, but they were never going to win a postseason game with him. The solution is so simple, but it's also so hard to find. You need to suck at the right time, you need luck on your side, and you need the quarterback that you tank for to be talented enough to overcome any dysfunction the organization has had. Those type of quarterbacks show up every five years or so. This team constantly puts the cart before the horse and until they change that mindset we can expect the same results.
     
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  26. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    Burrow didn't play well either. Bengals defense and special teams shined today.
     
  27. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Oh give it a break with your Tannehill fandom.

    Burrow, a 2nd year QB with a much worse offensive line and overall team, outplayed Ryan Tannehill, a 9th year QB who has a much better offensive line and overall team.

    Enough already. Tannehill is not, was not, and will never be a true franchise QB.
     
  28. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Daboll was an active part in taking a talented but extremely raw QB and turning him into Josh Allen. He wasn't handed a finished product like Gase, he made the finished product. He also got a helluva performance out of Tua in college coaching Saban's offense, and while he was with us he got career years out of Reggie Bush and Brandon Marshall despite needing to rely on Matt Moore for a good chunk of the season.

    We are not the only team interviewing him or showing interest. I'm not saying he should be your favorite, but the idea that he is only interviewing because of Tua is false, he's an in-demand coordinator of an elite offense that he was a significant part of creating.
     
  29. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    None of what you just said contradicts my point. Joe Burrow didn't have a good game.
     
  30. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Burrow played great given how awful his offensive line was. They got him sacked 9 times.
     
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  31. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Burrow has pretty poor pocket presence I must say. Still.. what he did this year is amazing. He ended only 2nd to Aaron Rodgers in passer rating. That is VERY impressive. Cinci is going to be in the playoffs on a regular basis with him and Chase.
     
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  32. JJ_79

    JJ_79 Well-Known Member

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    So Burrow can’t have the excuse of a bad line? I think for getting sacked 9 times he had a great game. Tannehill got carried by his team the whole game and if he didn’t throw 3 INTs they probably would have won because the Titans are the more talented team…
     
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  33. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    So, when Cincinnati hired Zac Taylor, his interview was conducted as if Joe Burrow was not their QB? Interesting take.

    And I think we're going to have to give our coach an extra year to make sure he's not concerned about being flushed if things blow up poorly next year.
     
  34. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    And if you can find where I defended Tannehill's performance, we can have that conversation.
     
  35. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    And quite frankly, no. I'd go into more detail about why, but I rather not derail the thread I've done so already.
     
  36. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    Burrow made plays when it mattered today. He took a ton of sacks, but he gutted out a win. Completed that pass to Chase which led to the GW field goal.

    Titan fans got Tanehill'd today. Watching him throw those picks gave me PTSD flashbacks. Tannehill is FAR from an elite quarterback. As a matter of fact he's a classic example of who you don't want quarterbacking your team in the postseason. The guy can help a team win if every other aspect of that team from the coaching on down is stable. Titans have done a great job building a complete roster, but it's all for nothing if the quarterback can't at least protect the football.
     
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  37. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    When you are sure you have your franchise QB, then you can hire based on best fit for your QB. When you don't have your franchise QB ( and Tua certainly is not) then you hire the best overall HC, independent of QB fit.
     
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  38. JJ_79

    JJ_79 Well-Known Member

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    Fair, that was an allergic Tannehill reaction of mine, with some people on here still thinking it was a mistake letting him go and having a RT thread here for way to long…
     
  39. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Titans are like the 2002-2003 Dolphins with Ricky Williams and that great defense. We had everything except the QB. One day Titans fans will realize that too. And the only team I've found that consistently made the playoffs over a 10+ year period without any "great" QB is Pittsburgh from 1992-2003: 8 out of 11 years in the playoffs and lost in the SB once. Not sure if there are any others. Otherwise, every consistent winner over 10+ years I can find had a great QB.
     
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  40. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    If Rogers and/or Wilson are truly available, the Titans should absolutely be suitors.
     

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