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Flawed Process

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by tirty8, Jan 22, 2022.

  1. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry, but that's patently ridiculous. Nobody interviews a coach for a potential QB. They interview to see what they can do with their current roster. It might take another 20 years to get the perfect fit (as we well know).

    Grier: "How can you see yourself helping us out?"
    Coach XX: "Get me a good QB and I'll show you."
    Grier: "Who's next?"
     
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  2. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    I don't think they have the cap space for that. More to the point.. WE should be suitors!
     
  3. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    You can make the space. And I wouldn't mind it, but they need to want to come here first.
     
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  4. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    You're patently ridiculous. I repeat, you look for the best HC period, not the best coach for Tua.

    To give you an easy to understand example, Daboll is the one that would best fit with Tuna, but he is not the best HC candidate out there. That would be Harbaugh, Pederson or Caldwell.

    But knowing the idiot Grier is, he will probably go with Daboll, or some other candidate who is none threatening to him and is willing to baby Tua.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2022
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  5. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    Titan fans are probably the most chilled, laid back, awesome fan base I have ever been around. I'm sure they are upset about Tannehill losing that game for them, but they're a forgiving bunch. Great fans for sure. I hope the best for them...unless they're playing us.
     
  6. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Ok, can we please be REAL for a moment?

    Burrow did not out play Tannehill, ok? Burrow and the Bengals offense played against the Titans’ defense. Tannehill and the Titans offense played against the Bengals defense. Can we please for the sake of a sane conversation get this one irrefutable fact straight?

    Kudos to the Bengals’ offense for the their tenacity in being able to overcome an almost unheard of 9 sacks and still be able to pull out the win.

    As for Tannehill, he indeed had a crap game but if we are truly going to be honest and objective, 2 of his interceptions weren’t his fault. One you credit the Bengals defensive line for getting the hands up and tipping the ball when the Titans were on the Bengals 10 yard line. To blame Tannehill for that interception would be the equivalent of blaming every quarterback we played against in which Ogbah got his hands up, tipped a ball that ended up as an interception for us. You don’t blame the quarterback for that kind of a pick. You CREDIT great defensive play.

    The other blame falls on the receiver. The ball was in his hands, right where it needed to be and he tipped the ball instead of catching it. Let’s be real gentlemen.

    The one play that truly put the nail in the coffin for the Titans was the 3rd and 2 and they called a designed quarterback run for Tannehill. The way the Bengals were playing, that was a stupid call. If you’re going to run it, put it in Henry’s hands. That set up the disastrous 4th & 1 in which Henry was tackled behind the LOS. When that happened, the Titans were done. The Bengals were playing that well, time was becoming a factor and the odds of ANY team coming back in a playoff game become slim to none.

    This game was not an offensive game. It was a defensive game. The question was going to be whether or not an offense was going to be able to get by the defense. Cincinnati was able to.
     
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  7. Dorfdad

    Dorfdad Well-Known Member

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    Hats off the Cincinnati for playing a great game, but Tannehill cost them the game. Two bad throws into picks.
     
  8. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    I apologize for my phrasing. Absolutely could have made my point without the disrespect. But whereas I agree in principle (as I already posted), you either hire a coach for a rebuild or a kick start. Of course there will be talk about whether the team is married to the current quarterback, but the guy who will be hired will be the one who convinces the braintrust he can make the current roster work, not a roster to come.
     
  9. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Burrow outplayed Tannehill. Burrow had to deal with far worse pressure than Tannehill and played OK (though not great). Tannehill, dealing with far less pressure had 3 INTs, at least one of them really costly, and if you had to pick one reason the Titans lost it's Tannehill.

    That tipped ball INT at the 10 yards line was definitely Tannehill's fault. The defender was RIGHT there, unblocked! There's no one else but the defender rushing into the passing lane, and it's the QBs responsibility to see that. That was one of the most crucial plays of the game. Otherwise the Titans probably win if they score there.
     
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  10. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Being real, Burrow did outplay Tannehill, in every way. Both statistically, and on the scoreboard...
     
  11. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    When I see quarterbacks lined up on opposing sides of the ball at the same time, then I’ll say one quarterback outplayed another. Until that happens, a quarterback and his offense outplays the opposing defense. That’s who’s on the other side of the ball.

    Joe Montana didn’t outplay Marino. Montana and company outplayed Miami’s defense.

    Troy Aikmen didn’t outplay Jim Kelly. Aikmen and company outplayed Buffalo’s defense.

    The way you guys talk in your simpleton manner, both teams offenses are lining up against each other on the field.
     
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  12. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    No, it just means you can evaluate individuals in a team sport even if they're not directly playing each other. If we follow your "logic" that means no QB ever "outplayed" or was "better" than any other QB, which is a ridiculous position. What are you going to argue? That because Marino never played 1v1 against Tannehill that we have no way to assess which QB was better? Of course we can do that.

    Burrow > Tannehill not just in today's playoffs game, but even more so over the entire 2021 season.
     
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  13. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Your logic is flawed. You can evaluate one quarterback vs another and say one outplayed the other…because both quarterbacks played against 2 completely different defenses?

    By your logic, are you truly going to say that Tagovailoa outplayed Jackson in the Miami v Baltimore game? If you were to say that, that’s a completely idiotic statement to make because that’s not the fact. The Miami DEFENSE outplayed Jackson and the Ravens offense…just like this evening, the Bengals defense outplayed Tannehill and the Titans offense.

    You numbers people drive me nuts because all you look at is numbers, stats and like a simpleton, conclude one quarterback outplayed another while completely discounting and belittling the defensive side of the game.
     
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  14. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Dude it's not just me. I'd even wager it's ONLY you arguing this. People who don't rely on stats that much and primarily look at game film also argue one QB "outplayed" another QB. You hear this from coaches, players, commentators.. everyone except you apparently. And in general you do NOT need absolutely identical conditions to evaluate two people. That's actually one of the main reasons statistical analysis is valuable in many fields: you can adjust for the effect of different factors. There's absolutely no logic to your argument. NONE.
     
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  15. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    No “dude”, it is just you…and numbers folks like you. I’m sitting here right now watching the Green Bay SF game and NO ONE is making Rodgers vs Garappollo comparisons. They are literally discussing offensive vs defensive match ups
     
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  16. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Dude it literally just means one QB played better than the other one. In this case, Burrow played better than Tannehill. By a decent margin.
     
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  17. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Just do a google search. After almost every game they talk like that. Same in MLB with one pitcher outplaying another one. I just did a google search and many results already come up. Here's the first one:
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...gals-derrick-henry-ryan-tannehill/6625819001/
    It really is just you dude.
     
  18. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    You can’t see the trees for the forest. Watching THIS game right now. Garappollo has had 18 drop backs, has been sacked 4 times and knocked down 6 times.

    Has Rodgers been sacked 4 times and knocked down 6 on 18 drop backs? No, because it’s TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT DEFENSIVE SCHEMES! San Francisco’s defense isn’t getting the SAME pressure on Rodgers that the Packers are getting on Garappollo ergo, the packers DEFENSE is outplaying Garappollo and the 49ers offense.

    And for God’s sake, don’t ask me to Google anything. Google is about as worthless as **** on a man except…for finding numbers
     
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  19. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    You don't want to see evidence I'm right, fine. But there's tons of evidence IF you bother to google. And regarding the rest of your post, no one is saying you can't evaluate defenses or OL or any other component. All we're saying you CAN evaluate QBs and say one QB outplayed the other even if this is a team sport with separate offense and defense units.
     
  20. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Uh oh, Rodgers just got sacked for the 5th time. I guess Garappollo is outplaying Rodgers now

    oh wow, blocked punt, I guess Garappollo is REALLY outplaying Rodgers now
     
  21. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    They are both playing like ***.

    This game makes me not fancy trading for Rogers lol. Possibly unpopular opinion ... I'm not sure Rogers hasn't actually been clutch (at least in the playoffs) in like a decade. He consistently comes up small and fails to make big plays and big throws. That said, he might have the option to make me look like an idiot.
     
  22. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Gee, they just said special teams let the Packers down. Didn’t hear anything about Garappollo outplaying Rodgers.

    I guess Joe Buck and Troy Aikmen are both wrong, huh? I mean…what do they know compared to the all knowing stats guys here at thephins, huh?
     
  23. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    Grier really made a smart move trading our pick vs SF’s lol. God I can’t wait for him to turn this around……Grier….anybody….?
     
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  24. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Because they were both pretty bad. Like, is this really that hard of a concept to grasp? That sometimes one player has a better day even if they don't directly punch each other in the face? The most charitable thing you can about these QBs is that Jimmy made the clutch plays at the end that Rogers didn't, so one can certainly argue he outplayed Rogers, who came up short once again.
     
  25. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    More failure of logic on your part. No one said that in every broadcast from the first time football was ever broadcast that in every single game a broadcaster would say a QB outplayed another QB. That's just one more in a VERY long line of faulty reasoning of yours.

    No, what we're saying is one CAN say one QB outplayed another QB, and that you hear this a lot from coaches, players, commentators. The fact there's already a news article one hour after the Titans game saying the same thing shows just how common this is. Face it.. you're alone in saying one cannot evaluate which QB played better in a game because they didn't directly play against each other. lol
     
  26. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Of all the things we can gripe about, this just seems the lamest. We have no idea that Philly even gave us the choice, and if they did, why would you bet on your own team to be worse?
     
  27. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    Because you don’t trade 2 1st round picks for a WR. I hope you’ve played football or heard the saying that you build from the inside out. We can’t block, we’ve got a QB that can’t stay healthy but we trade those resources for a WR. And it wasn’t even the best WR in the draft. This is why we continue to be one of the worst franchises in the NFL. And I’m not saying Waddle won’t be good. Grier and Ross aren’t capable of consistently making good decisions.
     
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  28. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    I'm down with the idea of not trading two firsts for a WR, even as good as Waddle was I didn't like the move. I'm just not gonna gripe about it being our pick vs. the SF pick.

    As for blocking, I'd like to see what a competent staff can do. The downgrade this year was astounding. I know we let Karras and Flowers walk, but frankly I'm not sure if that was on Grier or Flores. People are grossly underestimating the impact Flores had on roster decisions, and he had 100% control over development.
     
  29. Dolfanalyst

    Dolfanalyst Active Member

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    One way to incorporate what you’re both saying is to measure how the QBs performed in comparison to what’s expected against the opposing defenses involved, and then compare those deviations from expectation to each other.
     
  30. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Yeah, that's a valid statistical approach (pending details about how to calculate "expected"). The issue here is far more basic: TDK is saying you literally can't justify any such comparison because the two QBs never played against each other, like in tennis or MMA.

    I'm just trying to point out he's alone in that position. There's no use trying to explain to him why he's wrong. It won't register. We go way back, like many years, so I kind of know his views by now and know he makes lots of logical errors. It's fun though.
     
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  31. Dolfanalyst

    Dolfanalyst Active Member

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    With just a rough sketch it looks like Cincinnati surrendered 0.021 EPA per pass dropback in 2021 (11th in the league), and Tennessee 0.011 (10th in the league).

    Yesterday that figure for Burrow was -0.09 (30th percentile) and for Tannehill -0.26 (15th percentile).
     
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  32. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I guess we’ll find out. And I hate the fact that I have 0 confidence in this organization and have turned so negative. I just don’t believe anyone who’s been part of the problem(Ross and Grier for 12+ years) will be part of the solution. Maybe Flores was the problem even tho it’s persisted long before he arrived with his 2 winning seasons.
     
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  33. Dolfanalyst

    Dolfanalyst Active Member

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    The league should be at the point now where it recognizes the importance of the top-notch QB/receiver combo and acquires players accordingly. The remaining teams feature Mahomes/Kelce, Allen/Diggs, Burrow/Chase, Brady/Evans, and Garoppolo/Samuel. Before anyone poo-poos Garoppolo, realize that he finished 5th in the league in EPA per play in 2021.

    Rodgers/Adams -- the best QB/receiver combo in the league -- were eliminated in a game that was very likely an exception to the rule between the two teams -- Green Bay would likely beat SF 70 of every 100 times they played. If they played seven-game playoff series in the NFL like they do in other sports, GB would likely win a series against SF 4-2. The worst remaining team in the league yesterday had the worst QB in the playoffs -- Tannehill -- and performed accordingly.

    Three years ago this team won a meaningless five games that prevented it from getting Joe Burrow. This past year they got "creative" instead of simply taking the best WR available. So instead of being in Cincinnati's position with Burrow and Chase, they're facing a tremendous amount of uncertainty with Tua and Waddle. Major personnel mistakes.
     
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  34. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    I agree, it's like in baseball when they say it was a pitchers duel. That doesn't make sense to me. Sure it was Tannehill vrs Burrow, but it was offense vrs defense. With that said, the Titans were Tannehill'd yesterday and I feel for their fan base. I like the Titans, I'm a TN resident, I also pull for Tannehill. Unfortunately he was bad yesterday, bad enough to remind me why we moved on from him.
     
  35. Dolfanalyst

    Dolfanalyst Active Member

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    Right, but QBs are called "good" because they typically play better than other QBs against the same defenses. If the degree to which Burrow played better than is typical against Tennessee's defense is greater than the degree to which Tannehill played better than is typical against Cincinnati's defense, then Burrow indeed outplayed Tannehill, even when the opposing defenses are considered.
     
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  36. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    :marble:
     
  37. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    Tannehill is the QB we all knew he was. Capable of making some amazing plays but major flaws in his game.

    Kudos to Burrow who was sacked 9 times and still posted a 93 QB rating. How many QB’s in the NFL could do that?m under that kind of duress?
     
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  38. Dolfanalyst

    Dolfanalyst Active Member

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    He'll need to get that corrected, however, because he very likely won't be able to score in the teens like that and be able to beat Buffalo or KC. He threw the ball for 348 yards and 9.4 yards per attempt, and the team had but one turnover. A mere 19 points certainly isn't predicted on the basis of that. The sacks were what limited their scoring.
     

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