btw that second thread of jason allen wasnt a serious thread. i was mocking everybody when they do threads like the rest of those..i got like 3 people to bite to lol
Shouldn't the team try to play to the players strength instead of letting their abilities go to waste? Ginn is a homerun threat who uses his speed to stretch the field and get open, if our QB can't throw the ball with any zip or accuracy past 25 yards, is that really the fault of the WR? Ginn was a guy that Miami targeted for a full year before he was drafted, even Saban was talking him up while he was here. Going into that draft offense was our biggest priority, nobody could have foreseen the collapse of a defense that was ranked #4 in the NFL and who had just signed Joey Porter via FA. So looking at guys like Willis is done with hindsight, our needs were much different on draft day. Cam and Randy didn't like what they saw in Brady Quinn and several other QB needy teams agreed with us, they had Beck rated higher and they picked Ginn to add speed to our offense, which again was the whole idea going into that draft. WR's generally take 3 years to fuly mature and develop, to write Ginn off as a bust this early is foolish and a good way to throw away young talent. That's not how you rebuild a team, that's how you ruin a team.
Were we watching the same team for the last 5 years? CP is horrible and needs to be cut and take that WR/PR/KR with him. I would take 2 nickles and a gallon of gas for them both in a package.
I'd be in shocked if i was a part of calling any of them guys a bust,,,,,,, i get the point your making tho,
Like2god i've seen CP throw it wit zip past 40 yards a few times this year, just the WR's can't get it. IMHO Ginn is more of a handicap the CP is.
CP = Chad Pennington? You're kidding right? I have the game on TIVO right now, and any of his deep passes, and I use deep relatively here, flutters across the field.
Please don't ask me if i'm joking i have not made fun of your Opinions.So why go out of your way to do it to me or others? I have the all the PS games and RS games d/l on my pc and i guess were seeing different things. Seems like Laveranues Coles should of been happy CP was let go then.Was he??? I forget lol
I've been watching Penny for years and I've never seen him throw a ball with zip. Even our Jets fan members have been saying that about him for years when he was still on their team, this wasn't something that just popped up al of a sudden. Look at how defenses played the Jets with Penny behind center and how they play against us, they don't respect his arm and they focus on stopping the run. Go back and read some of our own remarks about him when he played for them, we were talking about his "wounded duck" passes and his "noodle arm". Because of Penny's limitations our running game is going to suffer because defenses cheat against the run. Because of Penny's limitations a guy like Ginn who is a homerun threat is going to be misused and not have much of an impact. Because of Penny's limitations we will be having this conversation every week until he's replaced with Henne or Beck. Look at the difference between Penny's passes today and Henne's, it was night and day and when Henne came in we actually attacked down the field, moved the ball and Ginn actually became a part of the game again. How do you explain Pennington not even acknowledging his WR's downfield the past 2 games? He knows he can't hit them in stride and he doesn't even bother to look their way. Pennington is a very good game manager in the right situation, but "the game" shouldn't be limited to 25 yards.
They were really good friends, the fact that Coles was upset wasn't as much about Pennington the player as it was Pennington his buddy.
You'd have to ask him that to know for sure. I know they were friends but still i only got pissed if we got rid of good workers at my job.Plus they can still spend tuesdays with each other.
You dont' get mad when a pennington gets replaced with a favre because you think you're team just got worse at a position. Just sayin.
Well how about his quote from a few days ago? As jdang pointed out, it's not like Pennington was tossed to the side for a scrub, he was replaced by one of the best QB's to ever play the game, you don't pout and avoid the press for over a month because of that.
You know what I see in ALL of those threads? A couple youngsters whining about a slow-starting rookie then being beat down by the vast majority of posters on the board. Showing that one or two people think every rookie is a bust isn't the same thing as showing that the majority of people on the board think it.
No one could have foreseen it...except all the people who did. Our defense was old and overrated at the time, and a lot of people saw it. And ANYONE could see that our offensive line sucked.
If Hagan is our starter next week after the dropped Penny pass in the first quarter then I, for one, will no longer trust Sparano's judgement on anything!
Everyone should remember several facts before jumping on this bandwagon....... a) the Cardinals did not gameplan against Henne b) the Cardinals were in a "run the clock out" mode, and took the heat off the offense, and were playing a glorified "prevent defense" c) he is still a rookie, and needs much more seasoning late in games before he is ready
I think Ginn's problem is football IQ and motivation. He has all the physical tools but lacks the mental aspect of the game.
The point of that was to show you how early some people were dumping all over our players, something that you said didn't happen. There are plenty of other examples from that same time period and many examples shortly thereafter of people who were too impatient to let a young player develop, which was the crux of our conversation about Ginn. It's very easy to point the finger at one player who isn't producing big numbers and label him a bust, it takes a little more understanding to look deeper at his surrounding cast, playcalling, role, etc to truly grasp why a player is playing the way he is. Although if a player isn't scoring 3 TD's a game or passing for 300+ yards every time out there, then he's going to have people jumping on him. I remember being in one of the game threads last year against the Jets, Travis Daniels went from being a star to a loser, back to a star and back to a loser within a span of 20 minutes. People need to have patience and not jump all over every player because of a bad play or a bad game, and in some cases because he wasn't te player that they wanted drafted. That's all well and good in hindsight, but the whole focus that this team had last year was improving the horrible offense and almost everyone agreed. After a season in which the defense was ranked #4 in the NFL and after signing Porter, Miami felt that they were set on that side of the ball and wanted to improve the O by adding speed at WR to spread the defense, that's why they selected Ginn, that's why the offensive minded HC was brought in, that's why they drafted offense with our first 4 picks, that was the whole focus of last year....to improve the offense. If you think people were pissed off because the FO passed up Quinn for Ginn, imagine the reaction if they had drafted defensive players who would have been sitting on the bench waiting in the wings for Jason and Zach to retire. Hindsight is a great thing, but to say that defense was our biggest priority last year is disingenuous.
I just simply have to question what the hell Sparano is doing in this situation. He's not even using Ginn for Kick off or Punt returns. He's a weapon that has already proven he can take one of those to the house. It's stupidity to take that type of threat off the field when you've got a team that needs all the help it can get. If he's "taking away" his privelages to motivate him then as a professional coach he needs to find a better way to motivate.
I don't buy that completely. There are other ways to utilize his speed. Quick slants, crossing patterns, etc. that don't take a strong arm QB. Ginn's shown sloppy route running and I think that's his problem. They need to focus on the kid, motivate and teach him though rather than showing signs that they're just going to send him to the doghouse.
No, I said it wasn't true that most people wanted to cut a player after one bad game, and I was correct in saying that. You were hyperbolizing. There are always some small number of yahoos that blow off steam after a bad game, but most people didn't share that sentiment. That's just the point...it wasn't hindsight. People said it BEFORE that draft. Not everyone, to be sure, but enough to say it wasn't an unheard-of opinion. And of those who thought our offense was horrible and needed help, many of them thought we needed offensive line or QB help most of all.
The one good thing about the Ginn selection is that, by default, we did not get Brady Quinn. And I think Chad Henne will end up being more successful than Brady Quinn. Heck, he's ALREADY had more success than Quinn.
Umm...no. You said that noone was calling for their heads after one bad game and I pulled threads that showed people doing just that, in some cases before they even played in a regular season game. Now you want to change the discussion to say "not everyone did that"? Hey, I can go back and pull the rest of them if you like. I thought the earliest examples would be enough to end this charade, but I can go get the rest if you want to keep changing the rules. And if you use history and widely accepted common football knowledge as a guide, it generally takes a WR 3 years before he reaches his full potential. Calling Ginn a bust at this point is beyond silly, especially when you take those other factors into account. Which we drafted with our 2nd round picks. Again, we addressed those needs but the FO did what all NFL FO's do and they selected the highest rated player on their board and a player that they thought would have most impact on the team right away. Who you wanted to see picked has nothing to do with Ginn's developent as a player. He's here, he's a part of this team, an asset of this team and he should be given time to develop like all other NFL players. Making the case that he's a bust after one year and that we should have drafted "player X" is silly and it doesn't do anything to help Ginn's development as a player. You don't throw away young talent because of who was drafted after a certain player.
You can try to convince me of his worth till you're blue in the face (or better, till your fingers cramp up since this is the internet) but I am not the one who needs convincing. The whole point of this thread was that it looks as if our coaches don't think Ginn is capable of contributing as a kick returner or as a featured wide receiver because they are not allowing him to return kicks and are not designing plays on offense to get him the ball.
If our coaches don't think that Ginn can be our kick returner, then I have serious, serious doubts about their qualifications to be coaches. Ginn is a guy who proved last year that he can return kicks (not to mention what he did in college). If you put Ginn on kick-offs, with decent guys blocking, he's a threat to take it for 6 every time.
Stability, and lack of it, from the top down had created this debacle. How many systems have been partially installed over the last 10 years, between Head Coaches and Offensive Coordinators. To many. Unfortunately, these different systems have brought with them different talent to plug into their system. Further, I think what we have here is a difference of philosophy. Some coaches build a system around players, others build a system and plug in players. Of course you do what you can with what you have, but Parcels system looks rather rigid. Lorenzo Booker, looked great for Cameron. Had no place in Parcels system. I don't think Parcels adapts his system to players, he has a recipe and during the offseason he goes shopping for exact items to make his system work. Takes time... like three years to gather all the ingredients. Until then, he found some rotten bananas to fill the roster.
Really setting Chad Henne up to fail whenever his time comes this season. Now that's just ugly. Oh man. What a mess.
I look for Jason Allen to be traded way before Ginn. Per the announcers last night (MNF) The Cowboys have had a rash on injuries at the safety position. FWIW:As the saying goes."If hes even he must be leaving"; Ginn doesn't explode pass his man untill 10-15 yards pass the LOS, that why Penny doesn't for him. Penny is reading the WR/DB 5-10 into the route. He does this to compensate for his weak arm. Add in the fact that Ginn is gettin jammed off the line and it's easy to see why Penny doesn't look his way. If Ginn can learn to beat the press, he'll passes thrown his way.
Plain and simple he should be returning kicks so that he at least provides something. He should probably also return punts although that could be somewhat of a debate. The one guy who gets the shaft far too often here is Derek Hagan. Yes he drops balls but he gets open better than anyone else on the team. No one runs routes like him, not even Bess and he's bigger, stronger, and in a straight-line faster than Bess. I'll take one drop in seven catches versus no drops and never getting open. Hagan is the ONLY wr that has all the traits that a top WR in the NFL usually has. - Speed, route running, strength, understands the QB, can run after the catch etc.... etc.. Camarillo, Bess, and Ginn Jr. have more problems than Hagan does with his hands.
Ginn has speed, but he looked fast playing against inferior college players. In the NFL, DBs appear to be just as fast as Ginn, because he simply cannot get open.
