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Dolphins Acquire Tyreek Hill!

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Finatik, Mar 23, 2022.

  1. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    Ever heard of moving the goal posts? You said you hadn't seen him throw a 50+ yard pass. I gave you two. Now it's not good enough?

    Note also, I specifically stated that no-one is saying Tua has a stronger arm in the NFL but that he's also not especially weak. You saying he's average agrees with me and disagrees with your other posts saying he has a weak arm.

    And last of all, after stating you've never seen Tua throw a 50+ yd pass, and now saying that two of them doesn't count, you just casually throw out that you've seen multiple other QB's throw 50+ yd passes on a rope... with no evidence?

    Maybe you've just deceived yourself here, deciding that Tua is horrible and other good QB's are knights in shining armour who can do anything.

    Tone it down, reality is different - and better - than you seem to think it is.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2022
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  2. plc001

    plc001 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    No one said he’s got the strongest arm in the NFL. And I disagree, if you can throw 50yards you can make all the necessary passes in the NFL to be successful.

    Rogers has thrown 5 tds that were over 50 yards since 2008. I’m okay if I don’t see those passes from Tua.
     
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  3. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    It's not actually about the 50+ yard throws, or the 60+ yard throws that guys like Herbert, Allen and Rodgers can make, it's about what that represents in terms of arm strength and being able to make strong high velocity throws to attack the defense anywhere on the field, even on throws that are under 50 yards.

    Stronger armed QBs can thread the needle more, make the more difficult throws even when the guy is covered, or when there is only a short window of time to get the ball where it needs to go.

    I regularly see Tua float the ball too much or throw it too early on throws outside the numbers because he has to compensate for his lack of velocity.
     
  4. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    You found a couple of examples of 52 yard throws. A coupe yards over 50 does not invalidate my overall point, which is that Tua does not have a strong arm. And it's not moving the goal posts.

    Other QBs like Herbert, Allen, Rodgers, Mahomes, Stafford, can throw it 60+ or 70+ yards no problem.

    I don't need to go searching for examples of other QBs long throws I trust you guys watch football and have access to YouTube at least.
     
  5. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Those are highlights, any player can look like an all pro on a highlight reel. Never base your evaluation of a player on highlights. You have to study whole games and lowlights as well.
     
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  6. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    This you?
     
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  7. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    Look, the fact is, Tua WILL be our QB this season, barring injury, in which case it's going to be Bridgewater. They're not getting rid of him until next year even if he can't cut it. There's no more point in debating this other than bragging rights. If he can't cut it, we'll be trying to find someone this next offseason and then there'll be something we can actually debate.
     
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  8. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    I was thinking the same thing.
     
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  9. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    Moving the goal posts again. I was careful to address your points exactly as you wrote. Perhaps it was you who wasn't careful about what you wrote.

    You said you hadn't seen Tua throw any passes over 50 yards. We can only assume, therefore, that you think it's important that Tua has thrown or can throw such passes. So I showed you some examples of him doing the very thing that you yourself raised as an issue. If you're going to come out now and say that passes over 50 yards don't matter then why did you even bring it up? Even if you were careless in how you wrote and that you meant that Tua can't make the longest throws in the NFL the fact that you admitted you hadn't seen a single pass over 50 yards at least shows that what you've seen of Tua isn't comprehensive and therefore your evaluation of him might well be wrong.

    Want proof you're moving the goal posts? You now bring up that other QB's can throw 60 and 70 yard passes. That's literally a different physical target. You've moved the goal from 50 to 60 to 70.

    What's more, you say you don't need to go searching for example of "other QBs long throws". That's another moving of the goal posts. My comment, to which you're replying, was to challenge the idea of other QB's throwing passes over 50 yards 'on a rope'. Anyone throwing the ball that far has to put arc on it. There's no QB who can make the ball travel in a straight line over 50 yards. Yet you said that. If you're going to defend that point then please provide a video of it because I call nonsense. On the other hand, if you were just being careless again, then just admit it.

    Of course, one struggles to care about the opinion of someone who claims to see the truth about Tua when apparently they haven't seen what's real and claim to have seen what's not, or who is just careless about what the say.
     
  10. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    You are literally arguing with me over 2 yards. I said 50 yards, you found a 52 yarder, that does not make my overall point invalid. Tua does not have what you would call a strong arm for an NFL QB.
     
  11. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    50 yards was your goal. You chose it. Why?

    And we've already agreed. He has an average arm in terms of strength.
     
  12. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    I love the off-season.

    This is the most guy thing, measuring ***** example, I’ve seen in awhile. Please don’t stop. The entertainment value makes me just keep coming back. Cheers.
     
  13. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    50 was not a goal, it was an approximation. Maybe I should have said 50ish, give or take a couple of yards. You are arguing over a meaningless couple yards. If you had found one that was way longer than what I said then you would have shut me up, but unfortunately there are none of those out there for Tua.

    The main point was that Tuna does not have a strong arm for an NFL QB. Other QBs can throw it 60+ and 70+ with ease, and overall have higher velocity on long throws and throws outside the numbers than Tua. If you agree with that then I don't know what we are arguing about.

    I believe someone previously posted some velocity stats on here showing Tua has pretty mediocre velocity or time to target stats. Don't have time to search for it now but I remember someone posted it.

    As for long throws, see below for QBs with actual strong arms throwing it 60+ and 70+ yards in the air, BTW most of the guys in that countdown are still active today or recently retired/unretired.

     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2022
  14. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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  15. Tyreek Hill has an IQ of about 55 and he seems like a dip****; however, this seems like a decent move. After Tuba is done this year, whoever we go after at QB will definitely like the stable of playmakers we have put together. As long as ole tyreeked doesn't go beatin up on his woman or children, we should be ok.
     
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  16. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Like what are you really talking about? Why you hatin so hard with such bs?
     
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  17. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Grier has our this team in the spotlight with his moves

    Up to the team to show they can handle that
     
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  18. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    Arm strength is overrated because it is highly visible. There is a matrix of factors that contribute to the ability to be an NFL calibre QB in terms of completing passes. It comes down to the time it takes from the optimum decision moment to throw the ball and to when the receiver has completed the catch. You need.
    - processing speed - Ability to recognize the right time to throw the ball.
    - Release - how long does it take to complete the throwing action.
    - Arm speed, which is how long the ball is in the air.
    - Accuracy. Not just putting the ball in the general vicinity of the receiver, but putting the ball in the optimum position for the receiver to secure the catch vis-a-vis the defenders.

    The lower the overall time the better the chance that the pass wont be defended. This isn’t taking into account other factors such as the ability to read defenses, being able to manipulate defenders with the eyes, the ability to fool defenders with fakes, ability to escape a pass rush and so on.
     
  19. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Tua did have the highest completion percentage of deep passes in the NFL last year, just FYI. That doesn't mean he's a deep-throwing QB....it simply means when he does go deep, people catch the ball.
     
  20. FphinFantastic

    FphinFantastic Member

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    Nailed it! I was thinking the same thing. So much more goes into it. Just like an LB who can run a 4.4 does not mean he has football speed. Play recognition and reaction will beat a 4.4 all day. Just like like floating a 10 yard pass over the middle to a T hill on a dead run about to split the seem for 80 yards because you recognized it on the snap and you release was 1.1 seconds instead of mahomesing it and running sideline to sideline because you couldn’t make the read then having to heave it 70 yards making t hill out run the coverage to get the ball….just sayin.
     
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  21. FphinFantastic

    FphinFantastic Member

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    This morning on ESPN they were still talking and this was consensus…

    Tua best RPO QB in the league
    McDaniels best RPO mind in the league.
    Chiefs going away from RPO

    they feel Tua is going to have a huge year….

    maybe just maybe the Chiefs moving away from RPO has been the slow fall from grace and T Hill was a big part of the offense success when running RPO. With that said we could be putting the ultimate trifecta together.

    It is also nice that we are adding pieces to the OLine, but if we can consistently have success with a 2 second release we will not need as much from them. Tua averaged 1.5 release with just waddle last year.
     
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  22. Striking

    Striking Junior Member

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    And we may have an actual Run option for the RPO offense to work efficiently.
     
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  23. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I think a lot of people overlook that. The "R" comes first in RPO for a reason. If you can't run the ball, then there's really no "O" in there at all. It's just short passes to overcome a lousy line.
     
  24. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    That's because Tua only goes deep when it's a busted coverage or players are wide open. Completion percentage stats are meaningless without context. I believe he completed only 14 passes over 20 yards with only one TD all season.
     
  25. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Sure, you can say arm strength is overrated, but it just so happens that most if not all elite QBs have a strong arm. The only one I can think of that wasn't thought of as having a very strong arm was Brees, although I believe even Brees has a stronger arm than Tua.
     
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  26. Phil Hutchings

    Phil Hutchings Well-Known Member

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    Maybe that’s why he has been working on improving his arm strength, as we’ve seen in the "Per4orm" thread.
     
  27. Striking

    Striking Junior Member

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    For the first time in a long time we're going to have a complete offense. It's exciting
     
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  28. Fishhead

    Fishhead Well-Known Member

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    To be fair, it’s a lot harder for downfield plays to develop when the qb has no time to survey the field.
     
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  29. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    But hitman…serious question…how many NFL quarterbacks are throwing the ball 50, 60, 70 yard passes? Those passes are the exception and not the rule and typically happen on an obvious mismatch or blown coverage with a quarterback having time in the pocket to wind up and let it fly.

    When all of this discussion on quarterback stats started with Brad, I started paying closer attention to some of the particular franchise quarterbacks…Mahomes, Rodgers, Wilson etc…and noticed A LOT of their passes were short passes…and their quarterback stats were being padded with a lot of yards after catch. I watched Hill take a 5 yard dump off from Mahomes and turn it into a 70 TD. Wow, Mahomes threw a 70 yard touchdown! No, he threw a 5 yard pass that became a 70 yard TD thanks to Hill.

    My point is the long deep ball, while a definite bonus is not the end all, be all of a great quarterback.
     
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  30. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, 60+ and 70+ yard passes are not very common, but it's not about that. It's about what those passes show about a QBs arm strength and velocity. The same arm strength and velocity it takes to heave the ball 70+ yards downfield also translates to higher velocity throws overall, even on shorter passes.

    Yes, short passes are a big part of today's game, but elite teams and QBs cannot just rely on that. Eventually the defense takes those away and you are going to have to air it out an make the difficult throws downfield and outside the numbers. That's where arm strength and velocity become important.

    These long throw examples are just a demonstration of arm strength which Tua unfortunately is not blessed with.
     
  31. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Hahahah!!! Are you serious?? Give me a break!
    Coming from you that’s pretty rich.
    I know you think he has as fast of a release as Dan Marino, so……..
    Pssh.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2022
  32. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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  33. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    It's rare for there to be more than half a dozen passes with 60+ air yards in a week. Even though some happen, they're highlight plays because more often than not, long throws are off the mark or intercepted. I can't find information regarding them for last season, but I'd be surprised if any QB in the league had more than 10 such passes, let alone half that many completions.
     
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  34. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    https://fansided.com/2021/01/30/hilarious-pro-bowl-exchange-brett-favre-steve-young-video/

    Joe Montana had on OK arm at best.

    Tom Brady has never had an upper level cannon, and won more rings after his arm strength started declining.
     
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  35. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Brady has a strong arm. He can throw it 70+ with ease and when he wants to put some mustard on it he can throw it with the best of them. Montana had a deceptively strong arm as well.

    Young I'll give you that one, but again that's the exception, not the rule. Most elite QBs have strong arms. But yeah young is a good comp for Tua, both lefties. Hopefully Tua can grow into being as good as Young was.
     
  36. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  37. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    Tua is closer to Leftwich than Young.. Young was very mobile.
     
  38. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    It also translates to a lot of dropped passes. Just look at Cutler, who probably had the most velocity ever. He had a 61% completion percentage for his career despite being pretty accurate. Folks just struggled to haul in his rifle-passes sometimes.

    I agree that there are times when the pass has to be a bullet to beat coverage, but we see Tua doing that already on short to intermediate passes. So I don't really see your point here.
     
  39. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Tua does not have good velocity on throws outside the numbers and downfield. His out route and deep route throws are very underwhelming. That is exactly why his teammates say he can't make all the throws. That's my point.

    As far as dropped passes, that's because Cutler didn't know how to regulate his throws. He was all fastball, no changeup. On longer throws it really doesn't matter much if you throw a fastball, in fact you need to put some velocity on it so it will get there before the window closes.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2022
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  40. Kud_II

    Kud_II Realist Division

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    You forgot the warning label. "The speaker in this video will kill more brain cells than a pound of top shelf Marijuana."
     

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