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Tua is not the Problem

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, Nov 6, 2021.

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  1. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Hey, I'm trying to be as honest as possible in these conversations. I don't see a bad QB in Tua and I don't see a great one either. But I do see a kid that we can win with now. To be fair, he did not have any real weapons last year and he did okay. The bar is much higher this year with the offseason we just had, so it's we're still scoring 17 per game then there's an obvious problem at QB. I really don't think we'll see that though, I think we'll see a pretty high powered offense that keeps moving chains.

    As for the "going deep" comment, he's proven that he can do that already. Some here can say he lacks velocity all they want, but when he throws a 50-yard pass and someone for Miami catches it, I just don't see the point in arguing over it. If someone's open, he can get the ball there.
     
  2. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Wait... WHAT? How has this thread has gotten sillier? Now the all time career NCAA passing efficiency leader, Career 199.4 rating, didn't play crazy good? 69.3 completion percentage, 87 TDs to 11 INT with a 11 YPA average isn't crazy good? I think I am going to try not to come back to this thread until Tua is playing again. I just can't wrap my head around this one.
     
  3. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    You seem to think I'm disagreeing with you. But if you read my post, I said "I've seen Rodgers make too many great and clutch passes to suggest he wouldn't be a stud without All-Pro help".

    Those cats didn't suddenly forget how to run routes and catch when they went to different teams. They caught the ball when Rodgers got it to them, but give Mike McCarthy credit for scheming to their strengths.

    To make it perfectly clear: Tom Brady is the GOAT and Aaron Rodgers is undeniably a top-7 QB of all time. But they've never been on bad teams. Don't get me crossed about them being great, though.

    My final thought on Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers in relation to Tua is this: Put Tua on Tampa Bay or Green Bay last year, and neither team is nearly as good as it was. I'd be happy if his best season matches their worst. But if you put Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers in aqua and orange, neither was likely to survive the season healthy. I'll die on this hill.
     
  4. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    You forgot to add that that YPA was almost two yards more than Justin Herbert's at Oregon.
     
  5. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Are you seriously comparing Tua at star studded Alabama to Herbert at Oregon? You put Herbert on that Alabama team and he would have broken every single record in the books.
     
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  6. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    You don't know that. All we know is that Tua played well with good players around him like he now has in Miami. Stick to facts; avoid conjecture and keep the convo honest.*


    *I'm busting your chops, man. Tell me I didn't raise your blood pressure.:001_rolleyes:
     
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  7. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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  8. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    Nice try. Acting like QB play solely factored into the outcome of a game in a team sport without taking into consideration one team had one of the best defenses in the nfl and the other had a bottom 10 defense is disingenuous. And for as many excuses as people make for Tua regarding the OL, I would think you could at least understand that the Chargers had the worst OL in the NFL in 2020 and somehow he was still able to win offensive player of the year.

    But I know you’re not really interested in a legitimate football conversation and I’m sure you, Tua and his mom still think Tua is the better QB.
     
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  9. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Again, who has said Tua is a better quarterback than Herbert right now?

    I said Herbert has never beaten Tua which is a fact. I know it breaks your heart.

    I know a place you can cope.

    https://www.thepowderblues.com/foru...m-padres-forum/the-los-angeles-chargers-forum
     
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  10. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    I personally don't think Devante Adams will do as good with Derek Carr as he did with Aaron Rodgers. I think quarterbacks can absolutely turn wide receivers into superstar players. It's also why it almost never works when teams with mediocre to bad quarterbacks spend in free agency on receivers that have had big years catching passes from elite quarterbacks. We've seen it plenty of times in the past. To be fair, Ben Roethlisberger got Mike Wallace paid. After Wallace left ****tsburgh to play for us he was borderline bad with Ryan Tannehill throwing him the ball. Not gonna get into that discussion right now, but the point I'm making is that YES...Good receivers aren't all that good when the quarterback throwing them the ball is bad. Look no further than Allen Robinson last season with the Bears. That guy is going to do great with Matthew Stafford throwing him the ball. He did decent with Andy Dalton throwing to him last year, but when Justin Fields was in there he completely vanished and that's mainly because Justin Fields is a terrible quarterback. It's the main reason why I'm not super hyped about the Tyreek Hill addition. The hope I have for Hill is that Alex Smith was able to make good use of him as well and Alex Smith is the level to where I have Tua right now. A decent quarterback who can have a long career in the NFL and with the right pieces in place can make a playoff run.

    Back to Adams, I'm not saying that Derek Carr is a bad quarterback, but he's no Aaron Rodgers and I look for Adams' numbers to fall significantly with Carr throwing to him. He wont be going for 18-20 TD's on a yearly basis. The same can safely be said about Tyreek Hill with Tua throwing to him unless Tua makes a hell of a lovers leap in year three.

    I'll go even further with this...You put Devante Parker on the Green Bay Packers with Aaron Rodgers and he's a top 10 finish for a fantasy footballer.

    Tua is absolutely going to have to throw the ball downfield this year. He doesn't need to launch 75 yard bombs every play. No quarterback does that in this league. The arm strength isn't there so his decision making is going to have to be on point. His ability to read a defense, anticipate who and where he's throwing to, thinking quickly amongst chaos. These are things that Tom Brady has done to make up for not having a rocket arm and the results have been pretty good. I think Tua is smart enough to overcome any physical limitations he may have at the position and that is why I continue to believe in him. He wouldn't be a top 5 pick if he couldn't spin the football. He absolutely can. In fact, no quarterback gets a shot in the NFL at all with below average spin on the football. If you can't throw some lazers here and there then no team will look at you. It's just that we've all become amazed at freaks like Josh Allen, Mahomes, and Herbert. Those guys are great, but that's not what we're working with. Tua is a different type of quarterback then those guys, but it doesn't mean he can't get the job done and get us wins. The main thing I need to see from him is to rise up in the big games and play well. He does that, and he's a keeper.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2022
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  11. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    If you watched Tua in college and believe that those numbers were a result of his ability, then we are at completely different ends of the spectrum.
     
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  12. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    What competitive situation were they in that they faced each other 1 vs 1?

    Or are you saying that in a team sport, 1 person literally beats the entire other team?

    If so, I’ll sell you some ocean front property in Nebraska. You’re really gonna love the views there.
     
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  13. Phil Hutchings

    Phil Hutchings Well-Known Member

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    The correct saying is: The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
     
  14. Phil Hutchings

    Phil Hutchings Well-Known Member

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    Because people hate to be proved wrong.
     
  15. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    No, but wins will always be directly correlated with the quarterback.
     
  16. Phil Hutchings

    Phil Hutchings Well-Known Member

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    With all the new weapons we’ve already added on offense, I expect Tua to be more effective next season.

    The numbers in that piece show that he is anything but a poor quarterback, so with the recruitment of Hill, Edmonds, Williams, Ingold, Mostert, Armstead and others, along with the new system that Mike McD is introducing, I expect Tua to have a stellar season this year.

    And if he doesn’t, none of us will have any justification in continuing to defend him.
     
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  17. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I don't think that's completely true, but that's ultimately the point I was trying to make anyway. Knock Tannehill all you want, but that team's been a perennial playoff contender since he took over. That's what we're trying to build here as well. I don't care if their QB can throw further/faster/deeper than our QB, I care whether or not we're winning games and making the playoffs.

    People sometimes forget that the only goal is to win football games. Stats and measurables are great and all, but they don't mean anything if a game ends in a loss. We steamrolled teams last year in the 2nd half of the season, losing only to Tannehill & Tennessee. And guess what- that was a team loss all the way around. Same thing 2x last year w/ Buffalo.

    It's not because Tua didn't throw enough deep passes like others here have suggested, it's because we couldn't keep the chains moving with 1st downs. We lost at the LOS, we lost time of possession, and that ultimately loses ballgames against quality teams.
     
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  18. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it was a team effort, but Tua also played terrible against Tennessee. Tua has not shown the ability to overcome adversity and elevate his team's play when facing the better teams. That is the main knock I and a lot of others have on him. And not being able to threaten deep and outside the numbers to open up the offense, or make off platform, off-schedule throws when everything is not perfect is a big part of why we are not impressed. Sure you suround him with superstars like he had at Alabama and allow him to work his quick, accurate, on schedule passes he can look great, but when **** hits the fan against the better defenses and he has to rely on his arm and instincts, and improvise, that's where he looks like a deer caught in the headlights who can't overcome adversity.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2022
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  19. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I agree there, a lot of teams are built to win shootouts from elite QB play. And that's awesome when you have a guy like that, but it's equally awesome when you can hold an elite team to 15 points as well.

    With that Tennessee game last year, we completely shut down Tannehill and that offense for the 1st quarter and a half. But at the same time, we kept having 3 and outs while giving TN chance after chance to blow the game wide open. That is somewhat on the defense but that ultimately comes back to the offense & special teams not being able to control field position and give your team chances to win.

    With Tua, we're just building a different type of offense- fast, aggressive play to bust open the seams and keep the ball moving. I don't think that's a bad thing since the goal is consistency- how do you do it over and over and over again? I think we'll have that with Tua this season; we'll see though.

    The only thing I disagree with was that it mostly fell on Tua. Yes, he played bad, but there was instant pressure and we only had Waddle to throw to. That's the one time this season where Waddle was largely shut down, so the offense was basically non-existent without a 2nd or 3rd weapon. Gisecki, Parker, etc were useless because there just wasn't enough time in the pocket to make those intermediate throws. The run game wasn't doing anything because there weren't any holes to run through. It was just a brutal game we let slip away.

    The good news is that this season, we have legit options and we should have somewhat of a pocket...plus we'll have great running lanes at least on the left side. With Waddle and Hunt, teams will not be blitzing corners or safeties very often either since a missed tackle equals seven points. It's just a completely different look with real weapons on the field and some dependable protection.

    I get what you're saying and I agree- Tua stunk that game. But with Miami's 2021 offense I think any QB would have stunk in that game. Most QB's would have done worse than Tua in Miami since they wouldn't have as quick of a release. I mean, look at Brissett...he's had a decent career. But he was embarrassing on the field for us last year. It's almost impossible to evaluate a QB under those circumstances.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2022
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  20. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    This game makes me believe that a punter is worth a 4th or 5th round pick if he is good enough this year.

    With the Titans getting a grand total of 6 yards on the first three drives, Palardy punts for 37, 36, and 42 yards. Which lead Titans to only need 48 yards for their touchdown on the 4th drive. That is a pathetic display of special teams.
     
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  21. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Are the pro Tua guys confident that a Tua led team can now go up to Buffalo at the end of the year, in inclement weather and put a spanking on Allen and the Jills? Just curious.
     
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  22. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    I think you can put at least some of the blame on the coaching in that game.
     
  23. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying that it's easy to win in Buffalo, in the elements, in January?

    I'm sorry but every team is going to have trouble in that situation.
     
  24. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Haha. Nice dodgeball. So, is that a, no? Yes?
     
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  25. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Do I think that Miami can go into Buffalo, in mid January, negative temperatures, in the snow, and "crush" the Bills, as your scenario states?

    No, I wouldn't expect that, nor should anyone.

    I'm sure Herbert can though.
     
  26. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Well, I said spanking. Hahaha!
    Win?? Beat them?
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2022
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  27. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Hmm. I didn’t say anything about Herbert, but you did. Know anything about psychology, flash?
     
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  28. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    …and when did I say or imply that it was “easy”.
     
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  29. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Bills are 8-1 at home in December/January the last two years. As a gambling man, I would say no.

    Is it possible? Sure. McDaniels brought his offense into Green Bay last January and ran the ball effectively, tried to control the clock and won. Garopolo completed 11 passes that game.

    That's what it would take to win. Not Tua throwing for 400 yards and 5 touchdowns.
     
  30. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    You said "spanking", champ.
     
  31. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Never said nor implied anything about Tua throwing for 400 yards and 5 touchdowns or anything similar. Do you think I would actually ever do such a thing?
    So……that is a yes. Cool. Thaks. This has been a lot of fun in an incoherent way .
     
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  32. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Talk about incoherent.
     
  33. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Nope. That was just a typo because I am on my phone and I am just starting to go blind. Hitting that age. Fixed it. Sucks. Message is completely coherent.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 30, 2022
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  34. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    I’m not that old. It’s just with the small print. Ha.
     
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  35. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    You implied Tua being the reason that Miami goes into Buffalo and puts a "spanking" on the Bills.

    Did you mean he throws for 125 yards and 1 touchdown or 300+ and 3+ touchdowns. You know what you meant.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 30, 2022
  36. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    By ignorant people. We've discussed this AD NAUSEUM on this forum, yet people keep trotting it out as some sort of valid metric for judging QBs.
     
  37. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I'd expect ANY QB to be more effective when you give him high powered weapons. No one is disputing that.
     
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  38. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Key...it IS about the deep ball, though. If teams know that Tua can't throw deep unless the guy is wide open, then that's a problem. We struggled to move the chains because, for a combination of reasons, Tua included, we couldn't go deep. So teams shut down the short stuff, and the offense couldn't function.
     
  39. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    The problem with Tua is not that he sucks, but that he's good enough to be moderately successful with a good-great team around him. So we then get stuck in the doldrums of the NFL, good enough to make the playoffs occasionally, but lacking the playmaking ability to go deep in the playoffs, or win a Super Bowl.

    The guys who were saying this stuff about Tannehill are now saying the opposite regarding Tua. I think there's some cognitive dissonance at work. I, myself, am sick and tired of not having a QB who can make plays on his own, and is completely dependent on his surroundings. Picking Tua cost us a guy who I believe is that kind of QB, and sticking with Tua will prevent is from being able to draft that guy.
     
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  40. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Also, 87 tds over 3 seasons, I realized they aren't all full seasons, is 29 tds a season...not all that impressive given the team he played on. Also, which teams did he throw tds against? They play some bad teams. Also, when you have that defense shutting down opposing teams, you get more shots at throwing tds. So what his td%, and where does that rank? People always want to use the raw numbers, while ignoring that they numbered don't necessarily tell you anything meaningful.

    33 tds in 9 games in 2019 looks great, but came in 10th in Heisman voting probably due to the injury, but still...

    I watched him in college, and never wanted the Dolphins to draft him.
     
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