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Tua is not the Problem

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, Nov 6, 2021.

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  1. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Not really a trigger- he just has zero respect for Tua and he had to preface the heck out of his complaints. Yeah, he can make all the throws. Yeah, he's super slick in the pocket and can throw from any angle. Yeah, he can scramble and get you 10-15 yards. But he sucks because he can't throw hard. What's that? He's super accurate? Oh, that's because he throws short. What, he throws in tight windows? Oh, that's because he throws short and there's linebackers nearby. What, he's the most accurate on deep passes too? That's because he never goes deep.

    I do like that Simms talks about the receivers, the coaching, etc. to explain his point of view. But the one glaring thing he missed was the protection on the offensive line and Tua's average time to throw. That would have completed the story, so to speak, since it explains why Tua doesn't go deep very often. And to be fair to every side here, Fitz managed to go deep often enough behind the same line to make that a valid point.

    What he said though was valid- Tua doesn't have a cannon. The part we need to solve for is whether or not he needs a cannon to carry this team. I mean, Cutler had a cannon...one of the best arms ever...and he couldn't hit the broadside of a barn on most plays. So this conversation is really about what matters and how important elite arm strength is in the NFL. Because Tua is very good to borderline elite at every other aspect of the quarterbacking game.

    One side note- can Tua develop elite arm strength? We see him bulking up each season and getting more velocity on select passes. Will it matter enough though? I really don't know...but I'm confident Simms doesn't either.

    Overall, I'm fine with ranking Tua 29th. It's a dig for sure, but it also doesn't matter. Tua is not Fitzpatrick and he's clearly still developing after barely playing in year one. We'll have a much better picture this season with a more complete offense around him. And I personally believe that the ultra elite arm strength does not matter to the degree Simms is claiming. It would be nice to have but I don't think it's a deal-breaker like he makes it out to be. Hopefully this season proves me right.
     
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  2. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    He lost me when he admitted he didn't even bother to learn to pronounce his name correctly. The lowest level of respect you should give anybody is to know how to pronounce his name. Again, opinions are like *ssholes; everybody has one and we tend to think those of others stink. He's entitled to his opinion. If I was of mind to watch the next 10 or so of his ranking, I'd like to see why he thinks they're better. Not because of their accuracy or their winning percentage. Does it mean that the top attribute a quarterback has to have is a cannon arm? There's little logic that can make sense to suggest that he's the third worst QB in the league. But God bless him.

    And one of the things I'll give Tua credit for that's never mentioned is that he figured out how to move and protect himself while on the bench. After he was nearly killed against Buffalo in game #2 (no hyperbole, BTW), his choices were to stay on the sideline or not to trust his line and protect himself. Glad he chose option B. Chris Simms won't get much respect from me on any of his opinions because of how he managed to handle his own career. One of the worst QBs of his era and he's now someone whose opinion matters? He's a glorified version of the fans on this page.
     
  3. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    As I said in the other thread, I'm cool with people making their opinions known, even when it appears to be disrespectful. And ranking Tua 29th is an obvious shot. But it doesn't mean he doesn't feel that way or have a right to make his opinion known. Regarding arm strength as a metric for QB evaluation, if you take a look at the longest throws that are made each week, you seldom have more than five that travel 50 yards in the air. So suggesting that the attribute most indicative of an "elite" QB is the ability to pitch the ball 60 or 70 yards is disingenuous. It's what people fall back on when other things don't back up their argument. It doesn't invalidate their opinions about what they like in a QB, though.

    In the end, it's up to Tua to prove folks wrong about him. He's got a lot of things that are working to his strengths this season, so he has to take advantage of them. Just waiting for somebody to suggest that he sucks in spite of winning because he has a good team around him, even though no QB wins with a team full of scrubs.
     
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  4. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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  5. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Chris Simms, while not a great NFL QB, was STILL an ELITE QB, as compared to everyone not an NFL QB. People forget this.
     
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  6. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    But...he doesn't have "crazy arm strength." So if he's gonna say that, why should I listen to anything he says?
     
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  7. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Something comes to mind with this tweet when it comes to Tagovailoa’s arm strength…

    Either Tyreek Hill is full of crap or folks like Chris Simms et al are full of crap.

    Seeing how Hill actually plays the game and these reporters/posters here at thephins don’t, I’m more inclined to believe the former than the latter.
     
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  8. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Wait, what???? Chris Simms was an ELITE quarterback?????

    Now I’ve heard it all.
     
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  9. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    Tyreek Hill 'very confident in my quarterback' as Miami Dolphins WR bonds with Tua Tagovailoa
    4:03 PM ET
    Marcel Louis-JacquesESPN

    MIAMI -- Dolphins wide receiver Tyreek Hill has only caught passes from Tua Tagovailoa for a month, but already has high praise for his new quarterback.

    Hill told reporters during his introductory news conference in March that he knew Tua was "one of the most accurate quarterbacks in the NFL," and expanded on that statement after Tuesday's OTA practice.

    "At first, I thought it was going to be something crazy -- the ball going all over the place, but Tua actually has probably one of the prettiest balls I've ever caught in my life," Hill said. "It's very catchable. Tua is a very accurate quarterback. That's all I'm going to say."

    Miami traded five draft picks, including first and second-round picks in the 2022 draft, to the Kansas City Chiefs in exchange for Hill back in March, before immediately signing him to the most lucrative contract in NFL history for a wide receiver -- a four-year, $120 million extension with $72 million guaranteed.

    Despite being teammates for barely more than two months, Hill has already had Tagovailoa's back on multiple occasions, including earlier in May when a practice video depicted a seemingly underthrown ball by Tagovailoa went viral, amassing nearly 7 million views on Twitter.

    Hill responded the next day by posting a video of several deep passes from Tagovailoa to Dolphins receivers.

    "I just feel like football is all about confidence and I'm very confident in my quarterback," Hill said. "So I just feel like if I'm able to help him get all the confidence in the world and push other guys to push that confidence into him, then the sky's the limit for the guy because he's a heck of a talent, has crazy arm strength, arm talent.

    "We're all excited just to watch him sling the ball each and every day."

    Tagovailoa has received praise from Dolphins coach Mike McDaniel for his play and work ethic throughout this offseason, and was named the team's practice player of the day last week.

    McDaniel told reporters Tuesday that he was impressed by Tagovailoa's instincts at the position.

    "I've seen a guy that's attacking the moment, a guy that really likes to play football," McDaniel said. "You hear people describe a quarterback's instinctiveness. ... I didn't quite know what that meant. Now I have a better idea of what that meant, but I still don't have a better way to describe it besides instinctiveness.

    "But you can tell the player has played the position for a long time and that he thinks about the game of football through the lens of the quarterback position. I've been very excited about his development as far as the offensive plan and being the starting quarterback for the Miami Dolphins."
    https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id...erback-miami-dolphins-wr-bonds-tua-tagovailoa
     
  10. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    You should be more inclined to believe Tyreek Hill is full of crap, since he is not an unbiased observer. He is just trying to pump up his QB.
     
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  11. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

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    Hill is a being a good teammate and Simms is a clown. There isn't much reason to care about either beyond that its good that Hill is being supportive
     
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  12. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    You’re taking what he said out of context.
    Read the rest of the sentence.
     
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  13. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    You know, I can see this thread turning into another Tannehill thread. If McDaniel’s offense comes to fruition, and the Dolphins are averaging 32 points a game, and Tagovailoa ends up with a 107 Qbr, a 75% completion, 3 TD avg per game, 325yards per game, the naysayers are still going to be down on him.

    If it happens, I really can see this happening. For some, WINNING is never enough
     
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  14. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Do you think non-elite players make it to the NFL?
     
  15. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    No one is going to complain about that.
     
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  16. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    I was never a Tannehill fan, did not like him at all. Tua I like, I think he will be all right.
     
  17. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    His name carried him further than it should have. Even his crappy other brother made it to the NFL.
     
  18. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    An NFL analyst can't be biased? Yeah, right.
     
  19. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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  20. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    The fact that Chris Simms MADE IT TO THE NFL, means that compared to every male in the country, he was an elite athlete. He went to a Division I college and played QB for them. He then made it into the NFL. Crappy QB at the NFL level, but he was elite.

    I've said it many times, take the worst NFL QB and put him in a skills competition. They can all throw balls wherever they want, accurately. It's doing it under pressure that separates the crappy NFL QBs from the good ones, and the great ones from the good ones.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2022
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  21. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    So what, do you think Dan Marino is a good talent evaluator? He took and a job and quit the next day because he knows he has no idea what he's doing.

    Just because you played football doesn't mean you're a good talent evaluator.
     
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  22. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Strawman after strawman after strawman.

    NOWHERE did I say that Simms is or isn't a good evaluator. That all depends on how accurate his assessments turn out to be. I was simply pointing out, you don't make the NFL unless you're elite, even if you suck compared to other NFL players, and someone's playing success has nothing to do with their ability to assess other players.
     
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  23. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Dolphins Open OTA 2 Observations
    https://www.si.com/nfl/dolphins/news/miami-dolphins-may-24-2022-ota-observations

    “Tua Tagovailoa missed the Miami Dolphins OTA on Tuesday because he was sick, while fellow quarterback Skylar Thompson had an impressive practice.

    Thompson had his share of impressive throws in team drills, notably a nice hook-up with Jaylen Waddle over the middle, a 60-yard touchdown to Braylon Sanders with an accurate throw some 45-50 yards downfield under pressure, and lastly a nice throw over the middle to tight end Mike Gesicki in the final team drill of practice.”
     
  24. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    Maybe I'm reading this wrongly but the point is interesting. Let's assume Hill is exagerrating fpr the sake of letting Tua knows he believes in him. We know that Hill has spent time with Tua and seen him throw, seen his arm. He has also spent years with Mahomes. It seems reasonable to think Hill knows what good/bad throws are and strong/weak arms and good/bad qbs.

    Now, there are only a few possibilities here as far as Miami's QB sitaution:
    Tua's a bad/weak armed qb that limits them and they're not going to succeed.
    Tua's an average qb and its not clear whether they can be good.
    Tua's a good qb with whom they could really win.
    Tua's potentially a great qb.

    So then, having seen Tua, does it make sense for Hill to make those comments in all those scenarios? In which of these scenarios it is most likely that Hill makes these comments to encourage his QB?

    Hill doesn't have to make these comments, and the option is always available for him to just say nothing, or focus on something else.

    To me, the comments make more sense in a scenario where either Hill doesn't care about winning, or he really thinks that at his best Tua can be a good to great QB.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2022
  25. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    The season can't start soon enough.
     
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  26. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    IMO, if Hill thinks Tua has a weak arm and wanted to praise him, he'd find some of Tua's positive attributes to talk about, not pump up something that's false. He did say Tua is accurate, which we all know is true. But he could have talked about decision making or eyes or leadership. He wouldn't go out of his way to say something that (in his opinion) is false because that's illogical. With that being said, saying somebody has a "strong arm" is a subjective statement. It could mean that he gets the ball to the receiver quickly. It doesn't mean he throws the ball 60 yards downfield, which is silly anyway because who wastes practice reps on a play that even the best QBs will successfully make ~30% of the time? It also would require that WR and CB to take time off to get their breath back. This is much ado about little.
     
  27. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Or Hill is doing what he's supposed to do, talk up his team and his QB.

    We all know that Tua doesn't have "crazy arm strength." That was just a silly thing for him to say.
     
  28. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    I honestly think when he said strong arm, he thought oops, i didn't mean to say that, he quickly went to talented arm.
     
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  29. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    LOL he put Daniel Jones at 22. He has zero credibility in my eyes.
     
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  30. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Yes. That was obvious.
     
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  31. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    Cherry pickin' trigger warning:
    [​IMG]
     
  32. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    It's logical that a teammate with a bad opinion of Tua would remain anonymous, and it's also logical that a new reciever signed to a massive contract will try to publicly support his new QB. And aside from that, we all have eyes. We know Tua doesn't have crazy arm strength, so Hill's statement is quite ridiculous. We have seen Tua not being able to make all the throws in actual games. So what the defensive player said is more believable because we've actually seen tuna play. It matches reality, what Hill said does not.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 28, 2022
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  33. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    So lazy.

    Tell me what throw can't he make? I guarantee you there will be video evidence that was posted in this thread numerous times of him doing it. I don't care about the 60 yard flick of the wrist of his back foot, like you think all quarterbacks do every play, because honestly I don't want my quarterback doing that in a game.

    Even according to your pal resnor, if you play in the NFL you can make every throw. I don't care about the one circus pass you may see another quarterback get lucky and make.
     
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  34. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    The final question is, can Tua Tagavailoa make every throw required to win an NFL game?

    The answer is yes and that's all that matters. If you say no, I know that's bull**** and you know that's bull****.
     
  35. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    You are misquoting me. In a SKILLS competition, throwing balls into buckets, through hoops, etc, I don't believe you would see a vast difference between Aaron Rodgers and a backup QB. You have to have accuracy, you have to be able to drop balls into trash cans, etc, to even get considered for the NFL. On the field, in a game situation, no, every QB cannot make every throw.

    Tua, for instance, in perfect settings, may be able to make every throw. However, due to his size and his arm strength, he isn't able to make the same setup and movement when he's under pressure in a game.

    He doesn't have crazy arm strength. Period. End of story. Why you guys want to argue this I'll never understand.
     
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  36. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    I agree he doesn't have "crazy" arm strength, but he can make every NFL throw.

    I'm leaving it at that. See you in September.
     
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  37. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    It's not lazy. It's the truth. In regards to throws he can't make, Tua can't make off schedule throws requiring a lot of arm strength and velocity, especially when he has to throw outside the numbers and under pressure, or on the run.

    Under perfect conditions yes, he can make almost every throw, but even there, it's not just about making the throw, it's about how well you do it. For example, can Tua throw a 20 yard out? Yes, he can get the ball there, but can he throw that ball with the velocity that other stronger armed QBs can? No, he can't. When throwing out routes for example, even on shorter patterns, Tua will usually throw it alot sooner than a stronger armed QB would because he knows his velocity is not that great, so he has to anticipate the break more in order to get the ball there on time. However, this means the that a cb who likes to watch the QB (the good ones do) will see the ball coming out sooner and have more time to react. We've seen this happen in games. There are also many throws in game situations where tua has shown a lack of arm strength and velocity to make strong throws under pressure, and off schedule where he doesn't have time to set and get his whole body into it. That's the truth, wether you like it or not. Which is why when an anonymous defender says tuna can't make all the throws, I believe him.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2022
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  38. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    This is a good post. Far too often in here, we get characterized as "haters" because we talk about this. Here's the thing: IF people calling us "haters" would simply say, "Yeah, that's a valid point of concern," instead of them going try to grab any quote from any source to try to prove that Tua can make any throw, there wouldn't be any arguing. Instead they act like these concerns don't exist, and the arguments ensue.
     
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  39. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    Last edited by a moderator: May 28, 2022
  40. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Is that because he has more 3rd and longs to convert than them?

    Again, that stat is completely meaningless without context.
     
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