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Tua is not the Problem

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, Nov 6, 2021.

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  1. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Lol
     
  2. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    Who's Mike Westerhoff and where did you see/hear/read him? I've just Googled for this guy and found nothing.
     
  3. JJ_79

    JJ_79 Well-Known Member

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    You spelled his name wrong, but the only thing I could find via google is, that he was in for a visit for the OTAs…
     
  4. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    You could be right and the defense could be getting better because of the experience of the younger players.
     
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  5. Serpico Jones

    Serpico Jones Well-Known Member

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    Legendary special teams coach with the Jets, Dolphins and Saints. He was on with Joe Rose this morning.
     
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  6. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Or if the defense shuts down the offense for 6 yards for the first two drives, and not have the opposing offense start close to midfield would be very helpful.
     
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  7. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    And he was at the Dolphins' practise?

    EDIT: Found it.

    Mike Westhoff with Joe Rose 6-3 - The Joe Rose Show with Zach Krantz - Omny.fm

    From about 5:00 in.

    He was asked about McDaniel and his coaching, and he said that being encouraging is all well and good, but for he believes in being reactive - if it's good, then encourage, if it's bad, let them know it. He would have pulled the plug and restarted the practise.

    He said, it was a " terrible example of offensive football."

    He specifically referenced indiscipline:
    Not lining up properly, Not breaking the huddle and getting up sharp.
    Not many passes completed downfield.

    He said he sees talent that looked pretty good to him, particularly fast receivers, a good defense, but what he saw with the offense left him disappointed.

    Joe Rose said, what about the idea they're installing a new offensive scheme. Westerhoff wasn't buying it. Didn't see the sort of progress he would have expected.

    "It wasn't a good day."

    Again said they need to be real and say, 'this is where we're headed, and we weren't even close to that today'.

    His main point was that he questions how the coaching might be handling this scenario.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2022
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  8. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Yup, and he was mostly positive about Tua but critical of our head coach, saying he had zero experience calling plays. Then the host (wasn't Joe Rose) chimed in with, "Tua has never shown he can throw down field, and NE's defense generates tons of pressure against Miami already. I think Tua's in trouble".

    And that's when I turned it off....since that "tons of pressure" has led to three straight losses for the Pats.

    The larger theme though was that it's a do or die year for Tua, he has no excuses, but then they listed all the excuses anyway for an opposing view (right side of line still sucks, rookie head coach sucks, Tua won't be able to throw to the Cheetah in our dink/dunk offense).

    I thought it was funny for a few minutes there but had to give up on the stupidity of the commentary.
     
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  9. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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  10. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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  11. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Ryan Clark nailed it. Throwing long in OTAs is meaningless. Let's see if Tua can show it consistently in actual contact football games.
     
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  12. Serpico Jones

    Serpico Jones Well-Known Member

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    Omar Kelly told the Big O that the new Dolphins offense looks horrible so far. He says it’s one of the worst he’s seen since he started covering the team 15 years ago.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2022
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  13. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    Omar Kelly is precisely the last person on Earth I trust to give me accurate news on the Dolphins. I’d trust a Marind-Anim headhunter from the Owen Stanleys in Papua New Guinea who’s never seen a TV in his life and doesn’t know there is such a thing as NFL football over him
     
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  14. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Some of you are too much and are arguing for the sake of arguing. Some of your points of view are quite idiotic and based less in fact than they are in bias, regardless of which side you stand in this argument. The title of this thread is "Tua is not the problem". Is he? Is he not?

    The last time this team was a viable, competitive playoff contender was 20 years ago, with an intelligent average quarterback at best in Jay Fiedler. That quarterback had a competent offensive line, an incredible running back in Ricky Williams, and decent receivers with the likes of Chambers, Gadsen and McMichael. It's no secret however that the strength of those teams laid with the defense with the likes of Thomas, Taylor, Madison, Surtan and Bowens. Since that time frame offensively, this team completely abandoned the necessity of the offensive line, the running backs position and the receiving corps and threw all of their chips in the search for quarterback, quarterback, quarterback. How's that worked out for us?

    In my opinion we HAD our quarterback in Tannehill but instead of building a quality offense around him...like the great quarterbacks in the NFL have, we squandered any opportunities we had. Sure, the GM's always seemed to go after "sure things" in folks like Haynesworth and Wallace but it sure seemed that once they landed in Miami, they were more focused on their new luxurious lifestyles in Miami than the were in performing on the field and yet, who got all of the blame? Tannehill...so off to Tennessee he went, with an organization that builds a TEAM and while the Titans are going to the playoffs year after year, the Dolphins are watching them on tv. So we start that wash, rinse, repeat cycle all over again...or are we?

    The jury is still out on Tagovailoa , but the one thing I do know is if you put all your eggs in ONE basket, you're going hungry. Under Flores, the defense appears to be re-built to be that stout defense we had in the early 2000's. On PAPER, it appears....again, APPEARS that we've re-built the offensive unit as a whole with PROVEN offensive linemen, proven wide receivers and running backs that have had breakout seasons with other teams. The TEAM itself seems to be built for success but as I've said previously in this and other threads, the Wildcard is going to be our rookie head coach in Mike McDaniel.

    If the offense "clicks", we're all going to be celebrating win after win but if the offense falters, is it going to be due to poor quarterback play? Poor execution of the plays called? Poor play calling? While many are excited over McDaniel...an offensive genius...the same thing was said with Adam Gase, and we all know how all of that turned out.

    Bottom line, stop arguing over the idiotic points of view and look at the BIG picture...the COMPLETE picture. I'm not the smartest person in the world but I am smart enough to recognize who is playing well, who is not playing well...what a good game plan is and what a poor game plan is and point those deficiencies out. The question is, are you?
     
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  15. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Two points here:

    1) We've had a historically good defense the past few years, and we just installed a new offense with new players and a new coach. Anyone expecting the offense to outshine the defense in TRAINING CAMP is a moron. Of course our elite defense looks good.

    2) Training camp is played in shorts. The linemen really aren't blocking. The secondary isn't really tackling and the offense isn't breaking tackles. Plus the defense often knows the offense's plays. Combine all that with the power run game we're trying to develop, and it doesn't bode well for 2-hand touch football.

    Plain and simple, training camp is not the same as pre-season. It's certainly not the regular season. Training camp is for learning the playbook and getting on the same page on what people are supposed to be doing. The defense is returning 11 players in the exact same system, so they already know what they're doing...and they're very good at it. Again, it's one of the top modern defenses with the most elite secondary in the league. The defense is dominating as it should be.
     
  16. Serpico Jones

    Serpico Jones Well-Known Member

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    He said the offense looked much better last year at this same point.
     
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  17. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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  18. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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  19. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    That is a valid point. Depends on how much DC was really involved last year. If Flores was really the main cog in the defense, we could be in trouble.
     
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  20. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    I remember a couple years where the D would play well in a game and finally break down cause the offense was doing zilch out on the field.
     
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  21. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I remember around week 8 that news reports said Flores took over the defense, and that's the week we embarrassed the Ravens. It felt like the D never looked back from there, and we won 8 of 9 with the only loss to Tennessee.

    The thing is though, that was media talk around the same time all the Watson stuff was dying down. Who knows how much truth there was to it? Maybe they just needed their next big story and gave Flores the credit. But that is when we finally started playing more cover zero with exotic looks and blitzes, so it's really tough to tell how much was Flores and how much was the defense maturing in the season.

    I'd be thrilled to find out that I gave Flores way too much credit...but I just don't know today.
     
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  22. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Also Flores and Boyer said that didn't happen.

    There are also reports that Flores just stopped talking to his coaching staff starting week 8.

    I have come to the conclusion that I have no idea what was going on because I have heard many different things from many different people and a lot of it contridicts each other. Only thing I can say I know for sure is that Ross soured on Flores, and that is because he fired him.
     
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  23. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, we'll really never know what happened without someone from the inside talking. Honestly, with all the conflicting talk, I have a feeling that Flores did become an outcast and Ross also put him in a tough situation- I'm guessing that everyone was wrong in one form or another. The insane part is that we won 8 of 9 games during that period and generally the HC gets the credit...but we just don't know.

    It has to be one of the stranger front office stories in the history of football...and that's coming from an organization where a respected line coach did coke with hookers inside the training facility. The truth really is stranger than fiction sometimes.
     
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  24. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I think Flores and Ross just have a different vision of how the team should be run. And their personalities classed.

    A lot of coaches are complete *******s and win. No one likes playing for the Patriots. They do it because they win. Flores didn't win enough to his style of coaching to succeed. Especially when he doesn't get along with the owner.
     
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  25. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    I hate those games. We'll go into the fourth quarter losing 10-6 and wind up losing 27-13 after the D gives up the ghost, and the focus is on the 27 instead of the 13. At the end of the season, the defense looks like trash and nobody notices how much the tepid offense put them under the gun.
     
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  26. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    I believe both sides of the dysfunctional dynamic as they've been discussed. I absolutely believe Ross wanted us to lose more in 2019 and had a least a conversation with Flo about taking his foot off the gas. Who knows if he was incentivized to do so? I also believe Flo was a control freak, who was likely unhappy if anything didn't go his way. Failure to live up to his expectations - and worse yet, expressing displeasure with your role (Minkah Fitzpatrick) or bringing unnecessary attention to his pressers (Kenny Stills) - was going to result in a quick hook and a ticket out of town.

    With that being said, I think Miami was a draw to defensive free agents under Flo and if Watson wanted to come here, likely to offensive FAs as well. So, even with being a prick, the needle was pointed up with him. I think Flo wasn't going to forgive Ross for trying to win through losing and I think Ross had to answer a lot of questions about a toxic work environment. But I'll never know what's true.
     
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  27. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I remember reports in 2019 that Flores was displeased that the Dolphins haven't done enough to win in 2019, and I brushed them off because Miami was in an obvious rebuild time. To dump big contracts and do a reset.

    Turns out those reports look to be true.
     
  28. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    I remember that. I used to think that Flo was on board with a rebuild but I scratched my head wondering if he wasn't on board with getting rid of Stills, Tunsil, Fitzpatrick, and others. Seemed like mixed signals were being sent by him.

    There's a huge difference between accepting losses by tearing down the roster and trying to lose with what's left, though. Coaches and players don't tank games. Franchises do though, by hamstringing them with noncompetitive rosters. I'll give Grier credit where it's due with this one thing: I always thought we were set for a 3-4 year rebuild. It looked like we had it almost completely in place last year, which was kind of accelerated. I didn't consider that this offseason (year 4), the cap space and accumulated assets would allow him to put this type of a roster together. Now, it's between his coach and his quarterback to make it work.
     
  29. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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  30. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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  31. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    More receipts are being printed:
     
  32. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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  33. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    So interesting you had to post them twice?
     
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  34. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    I know this debate has gone around but if anyone needs reason for hope that Tua can prove himself to be franchise quarterback, here's a couple of stat pieces:


    Tua here ranks 17th in deep pass "productivity". A PFF ranking combining stats and their perspective on what it all means.

    And another that comes across a bit over the top but has a good list of stats:


    If nothing else, these sorts of stats can contrast with the general take that is offered up. "Tua is bad at the deep ball."
    "Tua has been a poor QB."

    Well, if these pieces have any truth to them, they show that Tua isn't bad at the deep ball, he was average (according to PFF), and he wasn't an overall poor/struggling QB, he showed areas of strength in various statistics.

    None of it proves what Tua will be, but it does prove he wasn't a horrible QB, with no prospects. He might, just might, prove to be franchise QB with what it takes to be part of a Super-Bowl team.
     
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  35. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Stats are meaningless without proper context. I don't know why you guys keep posting these cherry picked stats. We all saw Tua play, we all know his deep ball passing is nothing special. He struggles to get the ball downfield and doesn't have much velocity on his throws. The reason his deep ball completion percentage was good is because he only threw deep on a few occasions when it was a blown coverage and receivers were wide open down field.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2022
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  36. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Sorry:

    "only Taylor Heinicke posted a worse turnover-worthy play rate on deep passes".
     
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  37. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    True to form, this was met with two immediate the truth is what I say it is takes. You even stated caveats in your post (which didn't annoint him as anything other than our current QB), but it wasn't good enough. Things are going to die down for the next six or seven weeks and then, everything's going to blow up. Can't wait.
     
  38. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    The very first line in listing top-10 rankings is "Tua was the best RPO quarterback in the NFL in 2021."

    That makes me wonder- how many "RPO quarterbacks are in the league?" The answer- one. Just Tua. Others run RPO plays every now and then, but Tua is the only one using it as a base offense the majority of the time. He's also the best Hawaiian QB in the league. That would have been better- at least there's two of those!

    What else does this writer have?

    • Red zone completions...that's a good one, should have led with that.
    • Clean pocket completion percentage...that's not a good one, since the pocket was almost never clean. If we want once or twice a game type of stuff, Tua was probably great when a goose flew by heading back to Canada...it's a shame they didn't track that stat.
    • Least amount of pocket time...who would brag about that? We get our QB killed faster than anyone...we're top 10 baby!
    • Aggressive attempts...eh, that's sort of a stat, sort of BS. 19.3% of his passes were in tight coverage, meaning someone was within three yards of the receiver. But what does that really mean when we know he rarely attacked intermediate or deep routes? It means a LB was usually just a few steps from someone catching a dump-off pass.
    • Least number of sacks...that's good stuff. As much as he was pressured, avoiding sacks is a massive plus. Should have led with that one as well.
    • Goal line passer rating. Okay, now we're getting somewhere. An important stat.
    • Goal line TD percentage. Likewise....why is he closing with this stuff? Very important stat as well.
    • Passes of 20 or more yards...which sounds like the guy who threw 20+ yard passes the most. Yeah, it doesn't mean that...it's completion percentage, making it a baited subtitle to trick the reader. Not cool.
    • Red zone sack percentage. Another good stat to have, but Tua didn't get sacked in general very often. This list has 5 or 6 "top ten" stats revolving around Tua not getting sacked...which is great. But don't say you have 35 top-10 stats and give me the same stat 6 times.
    • and my favorite of all- total RPO yards. But Tua was 3rd, despite running way more RPO than anyone else. At least he's the best RPO quarterback in the league though, am I right? LOL
    Then we start getting into situational stuff, which is nice and all as throwaway stats, but it doesn't support the writer's argument the way he portrayed it.

    • Yards per pass in the forth quarter in one possession games. Read that over and over until you know what it means, because I actually simplified it from what the writer had. When we're down by one score or less in the 4th, Tua throws the 4th longest in the league per pass. That's cherry picking at its very finest.
    • First quarter completion percentage. Okay, good stat on the surface. But we all know Tua (1) doesn't get sacked much and (2) is very accurate. Almost half these stats on this list deal with one of those two things.
    • Game winning drives...Tua was 6th. I think that's a great stat since it shows who he is under pressure, but this was 3/4ths down the page.
    • YPA in the 2nd half, 4th quarter completion percentage, TD's in the 2nd half. All of these are good nods, but they're not stats people look for in showing a great QB. This article would have been better without half the stuff the writer packed in here.
    • Least amount of bad throws....lousy, misleading title since he was actually 6th in least bad throws, but still. Good stat to be known for, horrible way to present it and honestly cheapen it. This writer claims that Tua only had 62 bad throws the entire season, which would be 3.8 throws per game if it's legit.
    • And the final stat where Tua is ranked 9th...AFC passer rating. He's 9th among half the league and this writer thinks that's a bragging point. 9th out of 16 is good? I'll stop where I started- this guy is an idiot with an agenda.
    I'm all for Tua and think he's going to have a great year, but I agree with others that posting these types of warped, charry picked stats makes a sound argument for the opposing viewpoint. There's some VERY GOOD stuff here that could have really framed Tua to be an up and coming stud, but instead the writer played make-believe to stretch the story to 35 categories where Tua is top-10. If he just went with a dozen of those stats, it would have been a home run article. With 35, it's complete crap and an insult to journalism.
     
  39. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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  40. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

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    That will get some people here upset
     
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