1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

We lost our first rounder next year and 3rd rounder the year after

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Rick 1966, Aug 2, 2022.

  1. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

    3,696
    3,743
    113
    Nov 29, 2007
    It seems to me more like he didn’t know how to coach Offense so he decided the only way he could get a good O was to hire a HoF caliber QB. Not so much as deliberate sabotage but good old fashioned incompetence.
     
    resnor likes this.
  2. Rouk

    Rouk Well-Known Member

    1,801
    857
    113
    Jul 31, 2011
    Hollywood, Florida
    Eh, ross stays being a clown shoes owner so nothing new. The bad news is that beal his replacement also seems to be a clown shoes moron. Also, flores singing like a canary the moment he wasnt going to get a job is an embarrassment to the league. I dunno how any organization could actually trust that clown. This whole thing is one big clown circus.
     
  3. JJ_79

    JJ_79 Well-Known Member

    4,587
    1,707
    113
    Nov 25, 2012
    Germany
    Don’t know what to think about this, we got punished worse than the Patriots and Watson for something that didn’t even play out. But a good thing for the NFL to get the spotlight of of Watson, at least for the moment.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2022
    dolphin25, Fishhead and firedan like this.
  4. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    10,488
    12,821
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    When was Flores supposed to do that? In the year where the team traded away his entire offensive line? The year Tua wasn't even fit to play but was forced on the field anyway...clearly against Flores wishes? Because that wasn't the front office looking out for Tua's best interests.

    Look back at the shock from Fitzpatrick, the press conference from Flores. They were both frustrated and angry. Fitz was benched for trying too hard to win.

    Second, you're going to blame Flores for not developing his quarterback on seasons of 9 and 10 wins....while the front office recruits Watson, Brady, and Flores replacement in Peyton? Maybe you missed the past two decades, but Miami was playing well despite still having the worst offensive line in the league. That's why Tua's development was slowed the first two years, the front office did that.

    The only real nugget we have against Flores is when he cussed out Tua at halftime during the Titans loss. And guess what, that happens at times when emotions are running high and a team has no answers. People are hating on Flores based on one reported conversation over a three year period. But looking back, the front office was looking for ways to make his life difficult from year one when he won too many games. Flores had a horrible work environment.

    Besides, if you're Flores and you see the front office screwing over Tua from day one, while actively searching for his replacement, how "buddy buddy" do you think you'd be with the kid? That's not how a football team is supposed to operate on any level- the coach, QB, and front office should all be on the same page in your starting QB's development. That clearly wasn't the case and the front office clearly didn't care if Tua got killed out there.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2022
    dolphin25, firedan, resnor and 2 others like this.
  5. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

    1,461
    1,234
    113
    Dec 29, 2013
    At this point that looks like nonsense. If the team had the willingness to force Flores to play who they want they would have forced him to play Rosen and they would have got the #1 pick. Not to mention benching Tua. Keep in mind that Flores revealed all the dirt but at no point did he say he was forced to play anyone he didn't want to.

    This news is 100% on Ross but Flores gets no pass on anything related to Tua. Playing him, benching him, playing Briskett over him vs Baltimore, inability to hire competent offensive staff, and wanting Watson is on him.
     
    dolphin25 and JJ_79 like this.
  6. Fishhead

    Fishhead Well-Known Member

    2,068
    1,731
    113
    Sep 29, 2016
    Clearly, the league needs to :

    A. Rewrite it’s rules and code of conduct, AND
    B. Have it’s investigations handled by an agency that has nothing to do with the NFL.


    To hand down a stricter penalty to Miami for doing something that every team does (albeit poorly and unsuccessfully) than to the Patriots for blatantly cheating is ridiculous. Not to mention the oh-so-transparent timing of the announcement to try to sweep a bigger black eye under the rug.

    Note: not defending Ross here, just bashing Goodell and the league.
     
  7. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

    12,162
    5,057
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    They asked Belichick today about the tampering and he did the belichick thing saying just focused on training camp, its all in the past.

    Thats a man that cant throw stones living in a glass house.
     
    KeyFin and resnor like this.
  8. Serpico Jones

    Serpico Jones Well-Known Member

    4,697
    1,667
    113
    Feb 1, 2012
    Joe Rose went off on Bruce Beal this morning. He said Beal is one of the biggest idiots he’s ever met and frequently comes to Dolphins games wearing a Tom Brady Patriots jersey.
     
    dolphin25, resnor and KeyFin like this.
  9. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

    11,817
    10,321
    113
    Nov 24, 2007
    Rockledge, FL
    Look, the fact that Ross violated the NFL’s tampering rules doesn’t bother me so much. Joe Robbie was fined and the Dolphins lost a 1st round draft pick when Robbie knowingly and willingly violated the league’s policy in recruiting then Baltimore Colts head coach Don Shula to Miami. That turned out GREAT for Miami.

    Here’s where my problem lies. Let’s just say for the sake of conversation that persuading Payton and Brady to Miami would result in a dynasty that would propel the Dolphins to the top of the league for years to come…the fact that Ross swung and missed…TWICE is the real issue. If you’re going to willingly violate the rules, then you had BETTER land it.

    And on the flip side of that coin…since Ross’ ownership of the team, we’ve had nothing but unproven coordinators as head coaches that have failed to pan out…and the last one we had…who may have panned out he fires. So I domy trust Ross’ judgment at all in taking such a gamble.

    It’s time for him to go, bring in an actual SPORTS person as the new owner and not some yankee real estate mogul who uses the team as his own personal toy to show off
     
  10. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

    1,325
    1,381
    113
    Jan 2, 2016
    Sometimes, I seriously wonder how Ross became a billionaire.

    None of what he does even makes sense.

    First of all, the whole Tom Brady situation is mind blowing. Clearly, Ross has little self awareness. Does he really think that an aging Tom Brady would have wanted to play for the Dolphins when they were a complete and total rebuild? The most casual of fans could have told you at the time that it was a multiyear rebuild. Then he bates Flo into a secret meeting on his yacht. For what? It is not like those two didn't know each other? Was any of this necessary at all? What were they trying to accomplish that could not have been accomplished when TB became a FA?

    The Sean Payton thing was awful too. I think he has crossed a major line in talking to a coach that has not yet retired about coaching the team. What if Payton was leaning toward returning to the Saints, and that swayed him? I would be livid if I was a Saints fan/owner. I commend the effort to get Payton, but they could have done it properly. Why not call the Saints first and say, "Rumor is Payton is thinking about retirement. We would like to talk to him. If we can work something out, we will give you fair compensation." If they say no, it is well within their right. At the end of the day, we are gonna need their permission anyway. Here is the other thing, if they did say no, and he retired, we could probably call them back and ask again. I think that they would be much more willing to do so after he retired.

    Finally, there is the most serious allegations of tanking. I really believe Flo, and there is little doubt in my mind that Ross straight up spoke to them about losing. Again, this is a total lack of self awareness. He is the owner of a profession sports team, and he should never, ever discuss tanking games. That needs to be something so serious that you would never even joke about it because of how it could be perceived. Again, you would think that a billionaire would have at sometime seen how people's words can be manipulated, and that by being in a position of power, he needs to be mindful about his words. If Ross had even a clue, he could have handled all of this on his own and gotten away with it. All he needed to say is, "We gave up a 2nd and a 4th round pick for Josh Rosen. I want to see him play out the rest of the season before we make any decisions about the quarterback position in the offseason. He is the starter for the rest of the season. Period." If Rosen was starting, the league would obviously not have any problems with it, and it effectively would have been tanking at the same time.

    I really wish that they would have made Ross sell the team. He is guilty and what he did was incredibly wrong.
     
  11. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    10,488
    12,821
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    Technically, he whiffed four times- 1st on NE Brady, 2nd on Tampa Brady, 3rd on Peyton, 4th on Harbaugh. Because let's be honest, if Brady wanted to be a Dolphin in 2019, the door was wide open. I'm guessing the offer was nowhere as sweet at that time- they were just recruiting him as a player and he took the better team.

    However, it sounds like Brady and Peyton were serious about Miami this offseason. Why else would they both retire? As I've said in other threads going years back, I wouldn't be shocked if Peyton was in play before we even hired Flores. You can't get a leading HC in to tank multiple seasons, so there was always going to be a fall guy in that position. And I think once the Saints said no, we switched targets to Harbaugh and convinced him to step down from Michigan. Everyone backed out once the Flores report was published though.

    That's three all-stars who quit their job because of promises from Ross...and I seriously doubt there will ever be a 4th. Ross has burned every possible bridge...not because of what Flores did...but for lying to and deceiving everyone he talked to. There was probably a zero percent chance of Tampa or New Orleans permitting what we were trying to do, so we really lost these draft picks off of Ross's incredible stupidity and arrogance.

    One way or the other, Ross and Beal have to go. It probably won't happen publicly, but I have a strong feeling that the other owners and the league will tell him that he's no longer accepted within their circles. Because that's the only penalty that actually matters- banning him from league meetings and events. Rich Eisen said that suspension was indefinite, don't know if that's true because I haven't read the findings yet....but if that's in there then Ross is 100% out.
     
    resnor likes this.
  12. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

    1,461
    1,234
    113
    Dec 29, 2013
    I strongly believe Ross was telling the truth when he said he hoped Harbaugh would stay at Michigan. I think we really have an owner that useless that he cares more about his former University.
     
    resnor, Pauly, mlb1399 and 1 other person like this.
  13. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

    13,501
    6,246
    113
    Oct 13, 2008
    New York
    Yeah, like if we are going to go to war for oil. it would be good if we actually. you know, got some oil. :blink:
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2022
    dolphin25, Puka-head and KeyFin like this.
  14. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

    4,323
    4,012
    113
    May 2, 2014
    SO Cal
    1. I don't care that much for Ross but like he was trying to get the team better. He screwed it up royally. If you're not pushing the edges, you're not tryin. See Patriots.
    2. He didn't get tagged for tanking.
    3. Brian Florez is a snitch and can't be trusted. He also cost us the #1 pick. I really liked him when he was here but hearing about all his BS on how he treated the players and about him not getting a job because he's Black - F Him. Dude you're a snitch. Why would anyone hire anyone of any color when I know you can't hold people's discussion in private.

    This is not a mainstream take, I get that. But I think a lot of people over analyze everything.
     
    dolphin25 and Rick 1966 like this.
  15. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

    11,035
    4,419
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    Some of y'all really don't know what a snitch is, and it shows.
     
    KeyFin likes this.
  16. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

    4,323
    4,012
    113
    May 2, 2014
    SO Cal
    I guess some people have more experience in snitching then others.

    But from Dictionary.com:
    What does being a snitch means?

    Snitch can refer to an informant who reports a crime or a tattletale who tells on someone. It can also be used as a verb meaning to inform on or tattle on someone. All uses of this sense of the word are intended to be negative and very insulting.
     
  17. Rouk

    Rouk Well-Known Member

    1,801
    857
    113
    Jul 31, 2011
    Hollywood, Florida
    Flores is 10000000% a snitch. The only defense you can make for him is calling him a whistle blower but he didn’t blow the whistle until it was clear he wasn’t getting another job. So, he started singing like a canary to get vindictive revenge against the dolphins.
     
  18. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

    11,035
    4,419
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    So, if a criminal breaks into your house and steals your stuff, does it make you a snitch for calling the police?
     
    mlb1399 likes this.
  19. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

    13,501
    6,246
    113
    Oct 13, 2008
    New York
    Yeah and especially since McDaniel has been praising Ross and Grier since he got the job.
     
    Hooligan likes this.
  20. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

    5,820
    4,665
    113
    Jan 15, 2008
    Studesville basically refuted everything Flores claimed. Find the link yourself.
     
    dolphin25 likes this.
  21. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,329
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    No, that isn't being an informant, and it's not being a tattle-tale.

    An informant is someone who people think is their friend, who is actually feeding information about them to authorities.

    A tattle-tale is someone who is telling on you for something incredibly minor in an effort to curry favor with an authority.
     
    Rick 1966 and Dolphin Dundee like this.
  22. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

    11,035
    4,419
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    I'm pretty sure it was clear that Flores and Ross were far from friends.
     
  23. Dolphin Dundee

    Dolphin Dundee Well-Known Member

    811
    549
    93
    Sep 27, 2015
    Common man Flo never mentioned any of this before he was fired.
     
    dolphin25 likes this.
  24. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

    11,035
    4,419
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    Exactly. He was fired. His affiliation with the organization has ended. That means he has zero reason to be quiet about the owner of his former team doing their best to undermine him.
     
  25. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    10,488
    12,821
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    By who? Criminals? Thugs? Of course that's their definition, because they want to steal your stuff and they don't want anyone to tell you that they stole your stuff. That's hard though because criminals and thugs are generally idiots that tell everyone who they ripped off, then they act offended when someone tells the victim or the cops.

    But then, what do you know, about 99% of those hardcore criminals take a plea deal...and they snitch on the people who were with them as well! Somehow, snitching doesn't apply to criminals and thugs...it's only for law abiding citizens that get ripped off or beat up.

    To me, the lesson here isn't "snitches deserve stitches." It's that criminals deserve to go to jail...or at least get out of my neighborhood.
     
    dolphin25, mlb1399 and Silverphin like this.
  26. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

    1,461
    1,234
    113
    Dec 29, 2013
    All he said is he never heard it.

    And the NFL all but said that Ross did it but the team tried to win so it doesn't matter
     
  27. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

    4,323
    4,012
    113
    May 2, 2014
    SO Cal
    Just posted what dictionary.com calls it. I’m in upper management and we discuss things even in jest throw things out. If I found out that a senior manager was taking about behind closed doors stuff I would NEVER hire them. They can’t be trusted. And if they got fired and claimed racial discrimination even though that is total BS, all you can expect is more of the same. But it’s all good. Hire him and expect the best best from someone who’s shown who he truly is.
     
    dolphin25 and resnor like this.
  28. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,329
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    And? I wasn't talking about whether or not Flores was either of those things, I was addressing you're erroneous example of your house being robbed and you call the police.
     
  29. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

    11,035
    4,419
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    Except it's not erroneous.

    Stephen Ross actively tried to undermine Flores and illegally tried to have him replaced. Just like somebody being robbed in the situation I laid out, Flores was on the wrong end of his situation. And y'all expect him to just stay silent? Screw that.

    What y'all want him to do? Send Stephen Ross a fruit basket and a thank you card?
     
  30. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End Club Member

    7,929
    4,404
    113
    Feb 10, 2010
    Palm Bay Florida
    Oh contrare' , Beal is just as much to blame. Flores just simply let the cat out of the bag.
     
    plc001 likes this.
  31. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End Club Member

    7,929
    4,404
    113
    Feb 10, 2010
    Palm Bay Florida
    Cant agree more.
     
  32. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End Club Member

    7,929
    4,404
    113
    Feb 10, 2010
    Palm Bay Florida
    You have got to be kidding me. Real Dolphins fan
     
  33. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    10,488
    12,821
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    I'm in upper management as well. If our company owner told us that he's going to hire a new CEO, but also fire most of the key staff and ask that CEO to do things that are illegal and against his moral character, I'd probably resign on the spot. If I found out the CEO being hired would also be asked to do poorly and tank his own career for a secret agenda, I would go to the company's board anonymously to stop that from happening. You don't hire people in bad faith...it goes against everything business stands for.

    Because here's the thing- a CEO's job is to produce favorable outcomes for a company and it's investors. The majority owner shouldn't be able to hire "fall guys" just to work an agenda that hurts the company...even if it is only short term. It's illegal. It's immoral. And you're ruining people's careers just for the heck of it. That's not a company I would want to bank my career on and employees have a right to know that kind of information.

    Brian Flores was put in an impossible situation- he was hired as a minority coach with the expectation of failure and eventual termination. To me personally, that is racist...and quite frankly, it's evil. In that position, most of us would have taken the 5 years guaranteed and washed out of the career we love. Some aren't built that way though and they're going to stand up for what's right, even if it hurts them long term. The only thing Flores proved (besides being a pretty good coach) was that he has integrity.

    Because what was Flores other options? He could have taken the final two years on his contract, and notified the league offices in private. That would get swept under the run and forgotten. He could have gone to the media, which would have got him sued. Or he could have said nothing and just lost his career as a victim of Ross's insanity. None of those are appealing options.

    Let me ask a very simple question (to everyone). If you found out your boss was doing illegal things to intentionally hurt the company, would you tell anyone? That's what this really comes down to.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2022
    dolphin25, Hooligan and Silverphin like this.
  34. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

    4,323
    4,012
    113
    May 2, 2014
    SO Cal
    Sometimes you have to take some losses to move forward. Ross wasn’t trying to intentionally hurt “the company” he was trying to help it in the long run IMO. By getting a “generational” QB that what’s turned out to be he was pretty much right. So basically your just like Florez with little foresight and thinking you know better when you can’t see the big picture.

    Racist??? Of course because no one else has ever been accused of tanking that was white. This is why racism is being so watered down. When real racism happens people don’t take it that seriously since everything is labeled racism. Just like him not getting hired.

    He told the world he’s a snitch and CEOs don’t want to work with snitches. Better hope yours doesn’t read your post. LoL.
     
    dolphin25 likes this.
  35. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

    6,338
    2,400
    113
    Nov 22, 2014
    So owner talks to Brady and Payton for 3 YEARS and nothing happens from this "tampering" yet we get a 1st and a 3rd taken away??? What on earth would have happened if he had been able to get both?
     
    KeyFin likes this.
  36. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    10,488
    12,821
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    I think you're having a selective memory here. Ross hired Flores and then:

    1) Ross ordered Grier to trade away our talent so we would lose.
    2) Ross asked Flores to tank.
    3) Ross asked Flores to start Tua when everyone knew he wasn't fully rehabbed.
    4) Ross asked Flores to recruit Watson.
    5) Ross asked Flores to illegally meet with Brady.

    Now, if all this was revealed in the interview before Flores became coach, then sure, that's all on Flores. But we all know it wasn't and that's not how you run a business. Ross intentionally tried to ruin Flores's career by what he was asking, and he also wasted the career of countless players on those early teams. We all love Needham's story and all, but what about the other 40+ young players on that roster? It's okay to screw them over as well?

    Besides, your whole first paragraph about obtaining a generational QB- did we succeed there? No. But we broke countless regulations (Goodell stated "unprecedented tampering") in the process. You're okay with that? Having a crook and a liar leading the franchise?

    And what "foresight" are you referring to? Flores was going to be fired regardless and bad-mouthed by the Fins because he didn't want to intentionally lose games- something the league commended him on. There's no foresight where Flores wins in that situation, and suggesting that he should have been loyal to a company that completely used him is ridiculous. The only possible way Flores was going to still have a job in the NFL was speaking out.

    And remember, Flores name was being tossed around for coach of the year. This didn't happen to some scrub who didn't belong there in the first place.

    For the racist part- you're right, it's never happened to a white coach. It's probably not ever happened to any coach, not to that extreme, because no team has ever tried that hard to tank. All I can say there is that Ross should have hired someone less qualified and someone who wasn't black. That would have been foresight. But the evil little man thought he'd never get caught and he didn't care what the consequences were to Flores specifically. That proved to be a monumental mistake.

    To recap, we have an owner who led "unprecedented tampering", gutted the roster to tank, lied to the league, lied to Flores, and disregarded countless rules to the point where the NFL couldn't state his violations without getting sued by the gambling industry and countless other partners. And that's the person you're choosing to defend in this?
     
    Hooligan likes this.
  37. firedan

    firedan Well-Known Member

    2,000
    826
    113
    Oct 31, 2008
    palm beach county fl
    He was in charge ,happened with his approval,Beal is guilty by association but Ross allowed it to happen.
     
  38. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

    4,323
    4,012
    113
    May 2, 2014
    SO Cal
    1. He did? Where's the proof in that? Tunsil - we got an unbelievable offer for him that even he said he would have taken. Landry - traded before Florez started. Kenny Stills and Fitz - got run out of town by Flores. Kenyan Drake. Mcmillen and Ford. OK Sure.
    2. Seems to me that it was done in jest.
    3. Um no. Tua was cleared to play and that helped him learn the system. They needed to see what they had. Weird how Flores would do what he's told here but not other times. Can't have it both ways. Either he's a principled guy who does the right thing or he just follows direction.
    4. Was this even a thing? Watson was actively being shopped. Why is this a problem?
    5. Illegally? What laws were broken? "Tampering" happens all the time and you make it out like its some criminal event.

    So this is you're rational for his "discrimination" and "racism"? Love ya Key but it just doesn't hold up.
     
    dolphin25 likes this.
  39. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    10,488
    12,821
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    1. Plus Tannehill, plus tossing out over half the training camp players and bringing in 20 folks from other team cuts. Our roster had almost 40 players with zero starting NFL experience.

    2. If it was in jest, how is it that the GM and other leaders heard Ross say it often? For a one time thing, sure, maybe it's a joke. But Ross said repeatedly that our draft position was more important than winning football games.

    3. A report came out earlier this offseason that Tua was maybe 60% recovered from the injury. Plus, he did not know the playbook or the offensive concepts. The kid simply wasn't ready.

    4. Watson said he wanted to come to Miami because of Flores. Why he said that, who knows, but that's who he wanted to work for. Could that be why Flores was hired in the 1st place? I have no idea.

    5. The rules broken were:
    (a) not trying to field a competitive team
    (b) encouraging the team to lose for better draft position
    (c) recruiting Brady illegally (twice) and Peyton
    (d) forcing Flores, Grier, and others into tampering situations
    (e) lying to the league about A thru D

    In a way though, those aren't the rules that matter. League owners are supposed to be about integrity and while they're not, there's an unspoken agreement about grey areas and/or crossing the line. Gambling is a huge new revenue stream for the owners and Ross almost messed that entire thing up. Deceiving the other owners and trying to outplay them is the rule that will actually lead to his demise.

    6. Does this equal discrimination and racism? To me, probably not. But this has never happened before and Ross shouldn't have picked a minority to be his patsy. There was actually a lot of press about our team's diversity and inclusion the past few years, how we're letting men of color lead the organization. And again, go back to what matters in point 5, the only thing that really matters. The good old boys club with their massive wealth and images. Ross was pinned as an example of how those other 31 owners should do business...but this is what was happening behind the scenes? They won't forget that anytime soon.

    It's just a terrible look that Flores was doomed in year one because he tried to win football games. Maybe I can't prove that publicly, but the other owners know and that's a big problem for Ross.
     
  40. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

    1,461
    1,234
    113
    Dec 29, 2013
    1. That is a problem if it was Ross whose idea it was but it probably was Griers
    2. Yes
    3. Very unlikely
    4. Likely everyone was on board there. Flores would be the most likely ring leader if anything though.
    5. Yes
     

Share This Page