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Tua is not the Problem

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, Nov 6, 2021.

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  1. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    He wasn't try to throw it low. A QB with an arm gets that pass there before they are lit up, AND if you are worried about your WR getting lit up. Just don't throw it. He doesn't have arm strength on the run. Simple stuff.
     
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  2. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    There is some simple stuff here. He should not have thrown the pass, and yes it was a bad pass. However, every QB worth anything that does throw that pass puts it low in those circumstances. All of this is besides the point. How does that effect the drive, or being encouraged by it?

    Nevermind, I don't think trying to communicate with you is worth it. Have a nice life.
     
  3. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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  4. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    The point is Tua can't throw well on the run. This is not the first time it happens, it happened on multiple occasions the last two seasons as well. He regularly underthrows it or throws duds while on the run. He doesn't have the arm strength to throw a good ball if his feet aren't set or his platform is interrupted.
     
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  5. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That is still missing the point of loving the last drive. Being able to close a game like that is so important. And, while not perfect, Tua was a big part of that.

    Also, He can throw well on the run. He doesn't always, but there are many passes were he did. I disagree that he has to stop and get his feet set. He has thrown accurately with good enough arm strength moving many times. You are correct that he needs to keep form when doing so, for example needs to be on the right foot. He doesn't have elite arm strength to throw from crazy angles, falling away, or just sending a rocket crossbody on the move like a Mahomes. I don't see this as that important. He is never going to be a Herbert or Mahomes. He is also never going to be a Jackson running with the ball. But, so what? It's not what is going to make or break him as a QB. There a lot of great QBs with the same restrictions. He can set really quick when he needs to drive the ball. Again, he doesn't always.

    What he absolutely needs to do is to to make quicker and better decisions, and do better at keeping his form when plays break down or he is pressing. He can and has done both of these things. He needs be far more consistent with them to be elite. This is what I want to see improve game to game this year. First game in a new offense down. 16 more to go. One thing I think is for sure is that he is in the best offense for his game, schematically.

    TLDR: Tua needs to be consistent to be elite, not get a stronger arm.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2022
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  6. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    I love Two Tacos and stale tacos going at it.
     
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  7. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    "But..."
     
  8. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Sample size = 33 attempts. Means nothing. If Tua has a 100+ rating after 150+ attempts then it will mean something.

    I mean one of the worst QB's in the league, Geno Smith, just posted a 119.5 rating with 2 TD's and 0 INT's. On 28 attempts. Let's wait on making stats-based arguments until we have somewhat decent sample size.
     
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  9. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Hey buddy, I've missed arguing with you, LOL. Hopefully you and yours are doing well.

    I'll counter your point by saying that yes, 33 attempts is too small of a sample size to declare a trend. But at the same time, those 33 snaps make up a part of the 150 attempts we want to see. So it definitely means something since the sum is the whole of it's parts.

    We want to see that same effort in 5+ games (150+ attempts), I get that. But all Tua can do it play the games on the schedule to get there. So far, he's above average in everything he's faced (4 quarters)...that's all we have to judge him by today. We can't discount the result solely because it's just a single game.
     
  10. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I don't understand how after ALL the Tannehill debates, we're still going to sit here are and argue about passer rating.

    The offense scored one touchdown. Tua was lucky to have a passer rating that high, but regardless, we don't win games based on passer rating.

    You have to score points.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2022
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  11. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    Well if we are going to slice and dice passer rating, we need to remember in 2021 the Pats were the #2 pass defense in the league and only allowed a passer rating of 73.3.
     
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  12. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    I see what you're saying. I really do. It is just one game after all. But, at the same time, if Tua had put up a 50 QB Rating performance, everyone would be heavily concerned.
     
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  13. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    We have one game so far with the new O, his play in that game is what is being discussed, and those stats compare it to first games from other QBs to provide some perspective. I am not sure anyone would disagree that more games are needed to make a judgment on his overall play for 2022. We just don't have a time machine, and either need to have no discussion, or discuss what has happened. I like discussion.
     
  14. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    My God Tua is such utter dogcrap under pressure:

     
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  15. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Can we post every QB's grade under pressure Week 1 for some context?
     
  16. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Dolphins drives with the score at the start of the drive followed by the result of the drive. Drives with a score, or the run out at the end of the game bolded. The way you are carrying on the offense just sucked. This is not the case. There weren't many drives for the O.

    Dolphins 0-0
    - Field Goal (11 plays, 47 yards, 5:47 poss)
    Dolphins 0-3
    - Punt (10 plays, 45 yards, 6:22 poss)
    Dolphins 0-3
    - Touchdown (10 plays, 92 yards, 3:47 poss)

    **Halftime**

    Dolphins 0-17
    - Punt (3 plays, 8 yards, 1:55 poss)
    Dolphins 0-17
    - Punt (6 plays, 4 yards, 3:39 poss)

    Dolphins 7-17
    - Field Goal (8 plays, 50 yards, 4:25 poss)
    Dolphins 7-20
    - Punt (3 plays, 9 yards, 1:40 poss)
    Dolphins 7-20
    - End of Game (10 plays, 52 yards, 4:55 poss)

     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2022
  17. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    To be fair, on that final drive we did everything we could not to score and burn clock. That's not points, per se, but it should count for something.
     
  18. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    When the QB debate digresses to the point where people start posting pages of useless. inane stats, it is usually safe to say that we have a problem at the position. Sorry.
     
  19. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End Club Member

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    The things I see he needs to improve on are

    1 - As pointed out in the video breakdown by Kurt Warner, he needs to do a better job of stepping into his throws towards the intended target. In that video he brings up the 51 yard completion to Hill where he has to cut back to the middle of the field. He is losing power and accuracy downfield doing that kind of thing.

    2- He needs to be willing to give up on a play where there is nothing there and under pressure. While that is good that he is constantly trying to make something happen but more often than not he ends up making a horrible throw or worse. That's the kind of thing that got him hurt in college. Throw the darn thing away when it's not there and pressure is coming and decide to do it faster.

    I still see his ceiling as a Drew Brees type but he has to get this stuff right. As much as I like him, if he doesn't show progress by the end of the year we are going to have to move on.
     
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  20. Vinny Fins

    Vinny Fins Feisty Brooklyn dolfan ️‍

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    This fanbase, is by in large, very binary on the QB issue. There are like, 5 qbs in the league a lot of the fanbase would accept.
    The fascinating thing to me is they learned absolutely NOTHING from the Ryan Tannehill debate. Couldnt wait to run him out of town. And when it became clear you could repeatedly go to the playoffs and make noise with a QB the caliber of Tannehill did they admit they were wrong? No, no. They merely doubled down and posted/tweeted through it like it never happened. Its fascinating.

    ****ing indy made the playoffs with the corpse of phillip rivers and almost did it again with that Stiff Wentz. Pats made the playoffs with MacCorkle. Steelers took bens carcass with a torn labrum.
    You can absolutely make the playoffs with Tua. Hes a servicable mid tier starter. Stop acting like hes Sam ****in Darnold.
     
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  21. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Goal is to win the SB, not make the playoffs. Tannehill proved last year about as conclusively as you could that he was the primary reason the Titans — arguably the best team in the NFL outside of QB last year — could not progress in the playoffs. That's basically what the great majority of Titans fans agreed with if you go by the posts on their message boards last year.

    Our mistake was NOT running Tannehill out sooner. Specifically, we should have taken the opportunity to get rid of him after his injury and by luck draft Mahomes or Watson in 2017 had we thrown everything at QB.

    So if anything is to be learned from the Tannehill debates, it's to have a short leash on an average or slightly above average QB. Do NOT settle for less or you're vastly reducing your chances of winning a SB. Just look at the who's who of SB winning QBs in the last 20 years to see that the great majority of the time you need a great QB or one that plays great that year.

    If Tua doesn't show these qualities this year you draft his replacement next year even if we make the playoffs.
     
  22. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Why should a drive count for ANYTHING when it's in the last minute or two and you have a two touchdown lead? You guys are reaching for stuff. I couldn't care less about that last drive. It's a drive that a competent QB should make to ice the game.

    The offense scored one TD. One. That cannot be the norm if we expect to win consistently. Also, I would expect the defense to start giving up points in the second half of their expected to hold opponent's to less than 13 points.
     
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  23. Vinny Fins

    Vinny Fins Feisty Brooklyn dolfan ️‍

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    My immediate goal is winning a playoff game. Thats it. By your metric, how many qbs are worth keeping? 8? 7 if you dont include a scumbag like watson? Its insanity
     
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  24. Vinny Fins

    Vinny Fins Feisty Brooklyn dolfan ️‍

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    Because its the 4 minute drill and that’s exactly how you put a game away? Some of you think this is ****ing Madden. It’s exhausting.
     
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  25. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Yeah let's say 8. Now.. how many times have the Dolphins had the opportunity to find a successor to Marino?

    - We missed drafting Brees when almost everyone expected it (stupid Wannstedt), and Brees played fantastic in his 3rd year starting (technically 4th year) so the 3-year evaluation "rule" would not have run him out.
    - We once again missed Brees in FA
    - We took Long instead of Ryan (barely acceptable QB but better than we've had)
    - We didn't pick the right QB in 2012 but at least we tried (I can give some credit for trying)
    - We didn't draft a QB in 2017 when we should have.
    - It's looking like we got the wrong one in 2020. Should have picked Herbert.

    You know.. bad drafting is one thing, but you have to try. Just going by what everyone thought we should do would have been better than what we did. So regardless of how bad Wannstedt or Grier or whoever else was, just prioritizing QB and having a short leash on mediocre ones would likely have yielded a keeper, or at least vastly improved the probability of finding one.

    We make another mistake keeping Tua (let's say he shows this year he's just average-ish) and it's another 5-10 year wait. Can't make that mistake again. Just keep trying until you succeed. I actually think we might have done that at HC finally, we'll see.
     
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  26. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

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    That is way too hindsight based for me to complain about. In 2012 no team would have taken Russell Wilson that high and that is the only thing you could be upset about. 2017 they just made the playoffs so of course you are running it back with Tannehill.

    Now 2018 on the other hand? That is the year you should have included.
     
  27. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    I have tons of posts from the 2016 season that argued we should spend everything on getting a QB in 2017. That is not hindsight for me. That's precisely what I argued we should do.

    I agree 2012 is hindsight, which is why I said I'll give credit for trying. The real question there was Kuechly vs. Tannehill, and at least they tried to fix the QB position.
     
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  28. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This is fair. Tua has to show he is likely the future this year, or finding it should be the number 1 priority. Can keep Tua to compete with whomever next year without much trouble too. Everything is setup for him. O-line wasn't great last week, but was head and shoulders better than last year. And, his weapons and scheme are absurdly better this year.
     
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  29. Bumrush

    Bumrush Stable Genius Club Member

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    Tua is not the problem. What's becoming clear with each performance is that Tua isn't the solution either.
     
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  30. Bumrush

    Bumrush Stable Genius Club Member

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    Copying this from the Bridgewater post with a few more points:

    I've been suspicious of Tua's abilities for a while now and I'm almost at the point of certainty where I can comfortably say that he will not be the guy to lead us to a deep playoff run. I don't see the requisite physical skills nor do I see him overcoming his deficiencies when things go off script. ****ing sucks but it is what it is. This season is on the verge of taking a very bad turn. If I had to bet on Tua becoming the guy we thought he'd be this offseason or who he has been, I'd sadly have to pick the latter. That newfound strength and healed hip looks identical to what we've always seen with him- Overmatched physically, afraid to run and if he holds the ball too long a disaster waiting to happen, especially if he is on the move.

    The fact that Tua has a winning record as a QB is a near miraculous testament to how good the defense has been against inferior opponents with opportunistic scores and domination. X alone has been the difference multiple times. This is a team that needs an act of god to put up 350 yards of total offense or score 3 offensive TD's - in a league that requires a strong offense against the stack of QB's we'll be facing this year.

    He's put in the work but I just don't think he has what it takes... I get flack all the time but I see him as a combination of Jay Fiedler and Checkdown Chad Henne.. I think his ceiling is Chad Pennington but I'm not sure he has the ability to even get to that level. Life can't be scripted nor can every play in the NFL follow a script. Tua just can't play off script and improvise. When he does disaster strikes or NFLMemes has new fodder for a throw in to the dirt or two defenders wondering who the hell he was throwing it to. This guy is in rare air of actually being worse the MORE TIME HE HAS TO THROW!!!!!
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2022
  31. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    I don't have it, but Tua has been bottom 5 the last two years now. It's not like a one game blip. He's a mess under pressure.
     
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  32. Serpico Jones

    Serpico Jones Well-Known Member

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    Mike Florio says Tyreek Hill was a cancer in the Chiefs locker room.
     
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  33. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Hill is a diva. Many of the greatest WRs were divas, Moss and Owens especially. I see nothing wrong with that as long as it isn't impacting the ability to win. KC went to 2 SBs with Hill and won one of them.

    I think this trade was good for both sides. KC thinks Mahomes can succeed without Hill and that Hill's asking price is too high, while we needed to put together a top notch receiving core. Both might happen based on week 1.

    Start worrying when Hill is thought of as a locker room cancer at Miami. Given that we have no Mahomes stealing the spotlight from him, that probably won't be the case for awhile.
     
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  34. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    What is the significance of this nonsense?
     
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  35. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    Mike Florio is and always has been a moronic piece of crap.
     
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  36. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    :sidelol:

    Oh, my crazy little crackers.
     
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  37. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    You know what, I think you actually convinced me just now. I always saw Tannehill's potential and thought if he could just get a little bit of a break, he could be a superstar. And he did that for a few seasons in Tennessee. But any of us could be a GM for the day and draw up a game plan to beat Tannehill because of his few glaring weaknesses. Great arm. Great vision. Tons of heart. But he can't sense pressure and that pressure forces him to make critical mistakes.

    Maybe he's elite in almost every other category, but it doesn't matter if he can't excel in the playoffs when teams are coming for him. I'm still a huge fan but yeah, we probably cut our losses a year or two too late.

    PS- if anyone lives semi-near the Titans stadium and wants to go to a game with me this season, my work has season tickets (very good seats). I'm the only one from my company in this region though, so I can get tix for just about any home game. I've been debating going for a few weeks now, so convince me to grab the 4 tix, LOL. I'd probably bring my brother so there'd be two seats up for grabs.
     
  38. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End Club Member

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    I don't think the organization even TRIED to get a QB after Marino. They didn't even draft one til Henne and that was about 8 years AFTER Marino retired. Instead they kept trying to pick up someone else's discarded garbage and hope for the best. And then we passed on Brees AGAIN. I've never been able to understand why the FO at the time wouldn't get a QB. I've kind of felt like they were scared he wouldn't live up to Marino. News Flash - No one would have, but to not even try was a far more massive failure and it's left us a joke for 20 years.

    I think if anyone has made up their mind on Tua already that is jumping the gun. Either Way!
    This is the year we will find out if he is worthy or not. He either gets it or we move on. It just stinks that Ross and his buddy blew the whole plan by being stupid.
     
  39. Vinny Fins

    Vinny Fins Feisty Brooklyn dolfan ️‍

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    The cant win with him crowd confuses me.

    22 starts. If your cut off is lets say, minimum 10 games? So at least half a season as a starter? Tua has the second highest winning percentage in dolphins history as a starter.

    keep him healthy and upright, and get semi open? You can win. Same as that entire second tier of QBs in this league. You do not need to devote the resources to a top 8 QB to win. People fetishize it because its easy but the reality is our roster is built to win predicated on defense with complimentary football from the offense. An elite (top 8, so top 25% of league) its not the only way. Ive seen too many bad QBs go to superbowls. You can win with Tua.
     
  40. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    As a mostly retired veteran to the Miami Dolphins QB debates, with extensive tours on John Beck and Chad Henne, and some mild skirmishes on Ryan Tannehill (Beck and Henne detractor, Tannehill defender (for the most part)), I've mostly stayed out of the Tua debate. If I had to jump in, I'd say I'm mostly a non-believer but I could see him making a jump here in year 3. The debate almost seems not worth having. Unless Dolphins leadership really screws up, if Tua doesn't prove himself here in year 3 with this surrounding cast Miami should be looking for a new QB in 2023. The doomsday scenario is Tua does well enough to one and done in the playoffs. That could make a decision tricky, and if the loss isn't on Tua it should be tricky. I don't know. I just watch him play with my untrained eye and he doesn't really look like an NFL QB, but what do I know? Next few games will say a lot. A really good NFL QB will allow a team to compete in games they should lose. If Tua can hang with the Ravens and Bills these next 2 weeks, then that's a good sign.
     
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