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Tua is not the Problem

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, Nov 6, 2021.

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  1. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Well if that’s the case, doesn’t that argument diminish Mahomes and his accomplishments? I mean, with all that separation, it’s not like Mahomes had to make a lot of great throws.

    Just saying.
     
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  2. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    Yup.
    [​IMG]
     
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  3. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    Consider: Tua's weapons and support were objectively among the worst in history last year. But that can't be considered a reason for his middling-level performance. Now, he has good weapons, that's the only reason for his objectively superior performance. He literally thinks you can only be a good QB unless you can lead the league in passing while accompanied by the second unit of the Little Sisters of the Poor's middle school junior varsity.

    He's not stupid, so he's clearly trolling.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2022
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  4. RGF

    RGF THE FINSTER Club Member

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    Yes, that's a given.
     
  5. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    if a person actually bothered to watch Mahomes with Tyreek they’d see that he often under-threw Tyreek and his YPA was less. A lot of these “under-throws” are done on purpose so the WR can comeback and have a better chance of catching it. It’s very difficult to Willie Mays the ball all game long… not to mention hitting a player 50 yards down field in stride is far less likely a completion.
     
  6. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    I will add… Tua is making some incredible spot throws. And he’s doing it in an incredible short amount of time. His release is on par with Marino’s and that’s not hyperbole. His accuracy is second to none. I’ve seen some morons claim that he’s not fitting the ball into tight spaces… they are either lying or not watching the games and speaking out of pure ignorance.
     
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  7. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Mahomes is playing just as well so far this year without Hill than he was last year with Hill.

    And it's not even a comparison just watching Mahomes you can see he is a better QB than Tua in almost every way. Much better arm, better mobility and athleticism, better durability.

    You take hill out of this offense and Tua's numbers will nose dive.
     
  8. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    I agree Mahomes is on another planet but you can't fault Tua for having Hill. It's such a stupid argument.
     
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  9. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Hill is only 500 yards off of his career high after eight games. He is probably going to shatter that and I think you would have to give Tua some credit towards that.
     
  10. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    Interesting. So, having superior talent on the roster leads to superior performance by the quarterback? And having subpar talent leads to reduced production? That's such a radical concept. Why hasn't someone said it before?
    [​IMG]
     
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  11. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    lol...Someone using the Mahomes comparison? Andy Reid makes every QB he's ever had look like the GOAT. That's not a knock on Mahomes, I think he's the best in the NFL. If Tua played for Reid he'd look as good as he does now even without Tyreek. Tua is looking this good because he is good and MM is one hell of a coach. Saban (damn him) is also one hell of a coach and he had Tua balling also.

    Some people...First they're like "Tua sucks" (when he's surrounded by crap and being coached by a man who hates him). And then they're "Tua isn't very good because he has Tyreek". There are literally no dumber people than those who use this crap.
     
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  12. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Tyreek's yards per game each season. See that 120? That's with Tua.




    upload_2022-11-2_22-26-2.png
     
  13. Vinny Fins

    Vinny Fins Feisty Brooklyn dolfan ️‍

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    so you think any nfl qb could do what tua is doing with this scheme and weapons? Really?
     
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  14. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    I mean, if you're desperately grasping at straws to give your argument a pulse, it's probably time to just admit you don't have one anymore. We're now resorting to counting injuries on opposing defenses and saying "yeah but if you take away Tyreek..."

    You can move the goalposts all you want, but the fact is that Tua is playing MVP level football right now. I'm honestly not sure how you can even begin to argue otherwise. This doesn't mean you're putting him in the Hall Of Fame or anything, and there's always room for improvement, but bringing in Mike McDaniel and having him design an offense that fits his strengths is clearly paying huge dividends.

    The most encouraging thing of all is Tua's 3rd down and 4th quarter numbers. They are astronomical. And this isn't "stat padding" either. This is a player rising up in the most crucial moments of the game, week after week. Now, half a season does not make ANY player elite, and there will always be things to work on and there will always be room to grow, but if you're a Dolphins fan you should be over the moon right now about the possibilities moving forward.
     
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  15. Springveldt

    Springveldt Season Ticket Holder

    And this was why a lot of people who thought Tua could be great was because of the situation he was in, weapons he had and the tight throws he was still making, he looked like a lower end starter. He wasn't horrifically bad while having probably the worse QB situation in the league and coming off a massive injury.

    He's had literally nothing his first 2 years, a coach that didn't want him, an OL that was trying to get QB's killed, running backs who are mediocre and went down on first contact and WR's who couldn't stay healthy and couldn't get separation. Yet through all that he was still looking like a serviceable starter. It made perfect sense to me that if we got him some weapons he would be at worse a top 12 QB and you can win plenty of games with that.

    Even with Hill and Waddle getting open go watch some of the All-22 film and see how good some of his throws are. He dropping balls over LB's and under safeties all day and he's throwing the ball before the receiver is even out of his break at times. He just knows where they should be and he puts the ball there perfectly.
     
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  16. DolPhinPhan7

    DolPhinPhan7 Well-Known Member

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    Savage

     
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  17. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    What I find utterly amazing is the fact the Dolphins are 5-3…Tua has won every game this season he’s started and finished making him 5-0, we have the number 1 and number 4 WRs in the league and instead of jumping up and down for joy, pounding our chests screaming “who’s next? Bring it on beeches”, we’re still having this “Tua sucks” debate.

    I can’t help but to believe even we were to win the Super Bowl, this nonsensical stupid debate would continue.

    Guys, be happy…be elated! This is the first time since Marino’s retirement the sports media is finally showing the Dolphins any respect…the first time in a VERY long time teams are actually WORRIED about playing us.
     
  18. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    This is why I believe these people are trolls. Probably Yets fans. Dead serious…

    They’ll troll for free, but none of this nonsense happens in the mains. I mean, there’s legit criticism and debate going on, but what I’m reading here is just straight dumb. Trolls won’t pay money to troll.
     
  19. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I watched a clip of the football morning show and they were like, "Tua should be humble, blah blah blah"

    I believe that if a player isn't ready to talk about going to the Superbowl, they shouldn't be an NFL starter
     
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  20. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    On the arm strength question. How many underthrown balls are completed VS overthrown? If a WR has someone beat, they have a clear advantage on the DB who is just focused on catching up to the WR and isn't looking for a pass to defend. Perfectly thrown is best, but underthrown is second, and deep completions mater. Where arm strength matters most is on outs. Tua can drive the ball on outs if he is set. If he has to come off his spot, he's not throwing an out anyway, as that is a timing play. Scramble drills thrown deep are also an arm strength issue for him, as he cannot get set. It seems like this has been identified and the WRs are starting to come back to him, or find less deep holes in coverage in those situations instead of looking to get behind the D.
     
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  21. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    Some are trolls but some are legitimate fans who wrote their receipts and don't want to admit they were wrong. Consider how far the goal posts have been moved. First, "Tua isn't the answer. Fitzpatrick replaced him because the coaches know he sucks". Then, "He's only winning because the defense is good. He has a weak arm and shouldn't get credit". Followed by "Yeah, he has a high completion rate, but anybody can complete 70% of passes for less than 10 yards" (which isn't true, BTW). Next, it was "Burrow and Herbert have stronger arms. His arm is too weak to throw downfield". Don't forget "It doesn't matter if his OL and skill players are subpar. Good QBs elevate the play of their rosters". Then, "Okay, he can throw downfield, but it's only because he has Cheetah and Waddle".

    They don't care that we know they're making ridiculous arguments at this point. All that matters is that they hold on to their cred, even though they've already lost it.
     
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  22. DolPhinPhan7

    DolPhinPhan7 Well-Known Member

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    It was Bart Scott who said that. Wildly ironic.
     
  23. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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  24. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    People need to be not so afraid to change positions on players. That's what makes being a fan fun. We can think a player sucks, and then be happy when said player proves us wrong!

    Look at Bills fans with Josh Allen. Being from Western NY, I can't count how many Bills fans I knew that were sick to their stomach when the Bills drafted Josh Allen. None of them were afraid to eat their crow and enjoy the ride. Tua still has a little further to go, but he's won me over as someone who was definitely a little further on the "I think this guy might suck" side of the fence last year.
     
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  25. Springveldt

    Springveldt Season Ticket Holder

    Totally agree that it's the scramble ones he struggles with, we all saw that in the last game. The one he underthrew Tyreek only went about 48 yards in the air and it looks like he put everything into it yet his TD pass to Waddle actually went 38 yards in the air and it looked like a little flick. Also he went deep to Tyreek later in the game and hit him in stride but I think the defender deflected it a little. That one went about 53 yards in the air and since he was set it looked effortless.
     
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  26. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    I remember Duke Riley playing for Atlanta. They drafted him believing he could be a Deion Jones clone since they both played similarly at LSU. Jones was a true beast, Riley was a true bust, with seemingly no NFL level skills. He went to Philly and became a special teams standout. When we signed him, I was sure he'd be cut. He's a legitimate contributor for us and I have no problem singing his praises when he makes good plays. I was wrong about him and surprisingly, it doesn't hurt for me to admit it.
     
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  27. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    CBSSports.com's Clutch QB Index:
    Clutch QB Index criteria
    1. QB conversion rate on game-tying/go-ahead drive chances in fourth quarter/OT. (How often does a QB successfully bring his team down the field to tie or take the lead?)
    2. Passer rating in fourth quarter/OT of one possession game. (How well does a QB play in crunch time?)

    Both components are split by career, playoff and 2022 performance and weighted equally.

    #1 [​IMG]
    Tua Tagovailoa MIAMI DOLPHINS QB
    He has converted on 11-of-14 game-tying/go-ahead drive chances in the fourth quarter/OT, and his career passer rating in the fourth quarter/OT of a one-score game is 129.8. Both are the best career numbers of any current starting QB. He's backed up the numbers with big plays late in victories over the Bills and Ravens this season.

    https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/...gs-truth-of-daniel-jones-game-winning-drives/
     
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  28. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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  29. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    This is a good take, Tua has enough arm to make most throws (except the very deep ones) when he is set and can get his whole body into it, however when he has to scramble or throw off platform his lack of arm strength and velocity is readily apparently. Stronger armed QBs like Allen, mahomes, Herbert and Rodgers can throw it 60+ with velocity off their back foot falling away, Tua can barely throw it 55 yards fully set while getting everything into it. His velocity on out routes is also subpar which is why he has to rely on anticipation more than other QBs.

    Again, that lack of arm strength, ability to make off platform throws, and lack of durability are the main concerns with Tua.

    I have never once said he sucks, he is a good QB I said so since we drafted him. I just think his limitations keep him in that good but not great category. Lighting it up against a soft lions defense does not convince me as easily as it seems to have convinced others.

    Seems everyone forgot how he looked agsinst Pittsburgh and Cincinnati who actually have respectable defenses.
     
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  30. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He's looked great against respectable defenses too. And, there have been "great" QBs with similar arm strength issues. His greatness will come, if it does, with being consistent with everything that he does great, while working around his issues. Much like most great players. Don't heave it up and try to outthrow coverage on a scramble for example.

    His steady progress has me excited. This point seems to have been endlessly debated now though. I just don't get how anyone cannot be hopeful with how he has continued to improve. Declaring a ceiling now seems silly. As does the ever-moving goalposts of those doubting his play, one good quarter, to only bad teams. Bills are an amazing passing D. They gave up a 32 passer rating to Ryan Tannehill the week before Tuas 128, and a 63 to Lamar Jackson the week after, but somehow they were too injured for Tua's week to count. It's just silliness.
     
  31. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    The bills defense was missing more starters and top backups for their game against us than any other game they've played this year, including the one before us against the titans and the one after us against the ravens. So please stop using that game as an example of him performing well against a good defense, Tua wasn't even great in that game either even with all their injuries.

    I say again, I will be happy to be proven wrong, and keep in mind I never said he sucks just that he is not great. I just need a larger sample size and good performances against better defenses before I declare Tua great and a true franchise QB.
     
  32. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    Sure, but that's why using QB rating blindy, and stating that has a larger impact on win % without taking into account how many times a player threw is weak.
     
  33. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Poyer and who else between Baltimore and Miami? I see one starter back, but maybe I missed someone. Are you no longer saying he cannot be great? That his arm is too weak to overcome? If so, we don't really have much to debate. I don't think he is great yet. I think he can be, and is trending that way, but he isn't there yet. Too much to prove to call him that.
     
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  34. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I was on the "Tua sucks" side of the fence through game 2 or 3 of this season. The offense looks drastically different than it did those first 2 games.

    My only concern at this point is durability. If he makes it through the rest of this season, I'll be much more comfortable. Give some of us a break, we've been being let down for almost 30 years by this team.
     
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  35. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    But he SHOULD light it up against trans like them. For the past 25 years we've consistently had QBs and teams that always seemed struggle with the bad teams, even though they would beat some good teams. So, I'm ecstatic to have a QB who's lighting up the bad teams. Obviously there's gonna be a dropoff against better teams.
     
  36. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    That would be interesting…to visit a Bills mafia site and see how many of their fans are still saying how much Allen sucks. I remember when Allen was struggling more than a Miss America pageant contestant trying to find America on a world map. He has certainly proves their critics wrong.

    I just don’t understand with how GREAT the Dolphins are this season that Tagovailoa critics can’t succumb to the notion that maybe they were wrong about him.
     
  37. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I mean, it's by no means gospel, but QBR does attempt to do that, and Tua is killing QBR also. Tannehill would have like a 115 rating, but would consistently be sub 90 in QBR.

    I just don't think you can fault a QB when he he only got 18 chances to throw. To me, that is a sign of a coach who is targeting specific things on specific teams.

    Also, this is very reminiscent of how Seattle used Wilson early on. Obviously there are MASSIVE differences between the two QBs, but I like the approach, especially with Tua, of not heaping everything on his plate all at once. But, clearly, McDaniel doesn't have a problem letting Tua throw it, so it isn't like he was limiting Tua's throws in that game because he doesn't trust him.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2022
  38. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    But Tua needs the receiver to get separation… lol… people who say this are either lying or haven’t watched him play. I love these “righty Tua” videos. I admit, for some reason he looks even better throwing right handed. Lol

     
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  39. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Yeah I'll second that you never said Tua can't play well with decent surroundings.

    However, you've repeatedly said Tua is not the type of QB that can overcome adversity, contrasting that with Herbert's ability to play well with a bad OL. This year proves Tua can play well with a bad OL, play well when much of rest of the team is not, and play well enough to overcome huge deficits to win games like franchise QB's do.

    You've also repeatedly said Tua plays to the level of his surroundings and doesn't elevate his team's play. I think that's why you still focus on Hill and Waddle so much without giving Tua proper credit. Yes, it's true Tua wouldn't play anywhere near as well without Hill (especially), but it's also true there's no surrounding cast for any game manager QB (you've often labeled Tua this way) that allows him to lead the league in passer rating! You don't lead the league in passer rating without elevating your team's play.

    Other claims like Tua doesn't have good enough football IQ to overcome his physical limitations, and that Tua's stats in some games are good because he doesn't throw deep (you often said that last year) no longer apply.

    Point is, saying you need larger sample size is fine. I'm in that camp too. But it's important to note you've been wrong about a lot of things with Tua. Without that context, "small sample size" and "playing against better defenses" comes across as moving the goalposts.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2022
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  40. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    The fact is PR efficiency has much higher correlation to win% than any volume stat. The 1972 Dolphins are the poster child for that - ranked 24 (out of 27) in passing attempts, and number 1 in passer rating.
     
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