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Tua is not the Problem

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, Nov 6, 2021.

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  1. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    In 2022, The Miami Dolphins have faced 5 of the Top-10 scoring defenses in the NFL. SF leads the league (15.8 points allowed per game) while Buffalo ranks 4th (17.4), the N.Y. Jets are 6th (18.6), New England is tied for 7th(18.8) & Baltimore is 9th (19.7). Miami is 3-2 in those games. So where's the narrative now about facing good defenses and losing? Oh that's right, Baltimore was hurt (we don't have ANY injuries), Buffalo was ______ and New England was _________ (fill in the blank with excuse). I don't think Tua played against the the Jets. So he's actually 3-1 in games he's played against top 10 defenses.
     
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  2. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    You are just looking at win/loss. Tua did not play great against buffalo even though we won by a hair, and even with all their injuries. He played poorly against the ravens for 3 out of 4 quarters. He did not play against the jets, and he played poorly against San Fran. He also played poorly against Cincy, New England, and Pittsburgh this year who also have good defenses.

    So against all the good defenses Tua played this year, he actually played great for only one quarter against the ravens where they had multiple defensive breakdowns and blown coverages. Other than that one quarter Tua has looked bad or just average when playing good defenses.

    He has looked phenomenal when playing bad defenses, but just average or bad when playing good defenses.

    Again, when he plays well concistently against good defenses and in big games, I will shut up. Beating up on bad defenses does not convince me he is a franchise QB.

    I am convinced Tua is a good QB, I've always thought that about him, I'm just not convinced he is great and a true franchise QB.
     
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  3. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Tua had a 123.8 rating against the Bills and to you that's "bad" or "average". Clearly it's neither. No, he played well against the Bills.

    And who cares about how he played the first 3 quarters of the Ravens game? The main takeaway from the Ravens game is that Tua showed he's the first QB we've had since Marino who can overcome a huge deficit in the 4th. First QB we've had since Marino who can overcome serious adversity. That's a sign of a franchise QB! You don't take away from that game "oh but he played bad the first 3 quarters".

    He's already proven he can play well against good defenses AND he can play well when others aren't AND mount huge comebacks AND play at an elite level for many consecutive games (and looks like over a season the way it's going). What's remaining is proof of durability and proof he can win in do-or-die games. But this "good defenses" argument doesn't hold water.
     
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  4. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    He was 13/18 with 1 TD against Buffalo. That small *** sample isn't "proof" of anything. Look at his career against over .500 teams.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2022
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  5. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Tua's rating against teams over .500 is 102.8 after 115 passing attempts, and if you add in NE (6-6 record) with 33 additional attempts to get to essentially that 150 passing attempt threshold it's 103.2. So Tua is well more than 1 standard deviation above the mean when playing against teams over .500 (or at or above .500). That's the level QBs that win SBs play the year they win the SB. Of course that's cherry picking just .500 or above teams.

    Tua's shown he can play elite against good teams.
     
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  6. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    That's in his career??
     
  7. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    No, this year only. This year is significantly different from his first 2 years. You wouldn't want to put all years together because statistically speaking it's not the "same QB".
     
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  8. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    Right. He's improved no doubt (as has the team greatly), but that will normalize closer to what he has been as he faces proper opponents in the final few games (Jets, Bills, NE).
     
  9. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    I do like that you hold on at all costs.
     
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  10. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    Not only this, but with some of the games Tua has had - He's a big part of the reason the defenses he has faced are not statistically top 10 defenses!
     
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  11. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Yeah, that too.
     
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  12. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    And, it's never addressed, but do they think that other QBs are ONLY facing off against top 10 defenses? Is Tua somehow getting an advantage that no one else gets? Lol
     
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  13. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    It's not really "holding out." It's waiting for a proper sample to make the evaluation.

    I know all of you don't want to ignore the previous two seasons, but they do matter, as does his extensive injury history.
     
  14. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    I’m not a Tua guy. I didn’t watch him at Bama. I get you’re not sold in but he’s producing like we haven’t seen in a long time.

    He sucked last week. But what I saw was a guy in his own head. Worrying to get hit. The 49ers defense. Missing Armstead. He’s still a young guy. He can still be in his own head. They F’d his head up last year. It’s almost like PTSD on the football field. I AM IN NO WAY CONFLATING THE TWO. Just a semi-analogy.
     
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  15. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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  16. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    You would definitely have been on the "Trade Peyton Manning" bus after his first season.


    GS Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD Int Rate Sk Yds Y/A AY/A
    16 326 575 56.7 3739 26 28 71.2 22 109 6.5 5.22
     
  17. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Some of you are just TOO much!

    We have a LEGITIMATE shot at the playoffs

    We have a LEGITIMATE shot at winning the division

    We have a LEGITIMATE shot at being at least the number 2 seed in the playoffs

    We have a LEGITIMATE quarterback that’s leading ALL quarterbacks in virtually every meaningful statistic

    And yet some of you are still making the STUPIDEST arguments against Tua that border on “yea? Well my dad’s bigger than yours”.

    The Miami Dolphins have been in the pit of mediocrity for so long that some of you can’t see WHAT we have, instead being the eternal pessimist of what we “don’t have”.

    I’ll say this, with no reservations whatsoever…Tua Tagovailoa, this season, is the BEST quarterback in the NFL and I would take him over ANY other quarterback in the league.

    If you can’t see just how GOOD he is, then you don’t really deserve the fantastic season we’ve had thus far.
     
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  18. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    LOL side step the question because you don't want to answer. That is why I asked the question,, you tend to always imply that Tua has a strong arm yet can't answer a simple question. Tua can make those throws if everything is set for him.
     
  19. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    It makes no sense to you because you see the obvious, however some on here apparently cannot see the difference in arm strength, then they hide when confronted with the facts.
     
  20. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    What is accurate? If a guy has to slow down or stop to catch a pass is that accurate? If a guy has to jump 3 feet to catch a pass is that accurate?
     
  21. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    He said it is good as it is going to get this time of year.
     
  22. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    I’m some instances, yes, those would be accurate. Accuracy is about not only ball placement, but knowing WHERE to place the ball. Throwing behind your WR so he needs to slow may save him from crushed, for example.
     
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  23. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    You would seriously take Tua over Burrow or Mahomes?
     
  24. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    In a heartbeat!!
     
  25. Springveldt

    Springveldt Season Ticket Holder

    Nah, you're just waiting for a bad game before showing up here. You went missing for a month then reappeared as soon as the 49ers game was over.

    He's something like 14-3 in his last 17 games, how big of a sample size do you want?

    The fact he was an average QB over the first 2 years shouldn't be held against him, it's an achievement considering his coach was actively sabotaging him.
     
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  26. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    I did not sidestep the question. I literally made it clear that I don't think Tua's arm is not as strong as the QBs you mentioned.

    That still doesn't change the fact that Tua's arm is strong.
     
  27. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    Nobody is saying there's no difference in arm strength. What people are saying is that the "Tua has a weak arm" argument is a dead horse argument that's been proven false.

    It's really not that hard to understand.
     
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  28. Striking

    Striking Junior Member

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    Really don't get the "off platform" comments. Every QB will have a reduction in performance when being forced to move before making a throw. Timing is off, feet aren't set, body parts are being affected etc... I've seen Tua make throws and plays while on the move, he doesn't need to be Mahomes or Rodgers in this respect, he just needs to complete the pass.
     
  29. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Tua does not have a "strong arm" when compared to other NFL QBs. That doesn't mean that Tua isn't better than other QBs, but he does not have a strong arm.
     
  30. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    Here's my thing.

    If you're a QB, and I, as a (hypothetical) coach can count on you to do deep at a moment's notice, consistently, then you have a strong arm.

    You want to say "Tua doesn't have a strong arm in comparison to Mahomes, Herbert, etc.", that's fine. That's true. But saying his arm is not strong because it's not the level of the aforementioned is just illogical.
     
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  31. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    HaHa! That would most likely be your last.
     
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  32. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    Nah. Just waiting for the circle jerk to end & reality to set in.

    This narrative is straight nonsense. Flores fired an OC who ran a complex West Coast system. The system Tua said he didn't understand, and then hired two guys that built an RPO based offense. He then also hired a QB coach that had experience with Tua in college. That's not someone trying to sabotage a player. He just didn't believe in him after a while. Nice of Tua to work his *** off in the offseason, and then nicer of Grier to get the best WR in the game along with one of the best OTs.

    You all want to rush and call Tua a franchise QB even though he missed so many difficult parts of the schedule, hasn't stayed healthy a full season, and hasn't gotten into the difficult part of the schedule, AND hasn't won/played in a playoff game. Someone wants to desperately be right, but it ain't me babe.
     
  33. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

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    Imagine wanting the team and the QB to be good and being excited when there are signs up. Ain't me babe!

    Flores was trying to replace Tua before he played a single game of the second season. In the first year he hired a OC for Ryan Fitzpatrick which is incomprehensible.

    I'm not really going to go with sabotage because at the end of day Flores would have wanted him to be better because it would be better for him. Tua spent two years in the worst situation any QB was in for that period but that is more incompetence on Flores part more so that actively trying to make it happen.

    Flores did try to make it work but not in a way that makes sense and if things went the way you would have wanted Tua would be gone but with a substantially worse head coach.
     
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  34. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Justin Herbert has had injuries, hasn't been in/won a playoff game, has a losing record. But, he can sling bullets so he is a franchise quarterback to you?

    McDaniel himself said the coaches before him were intentionally telling Tua not to do the things McDaniel saw as elite traits. Looking off defenders, throwing receivers open and using his anticipation.

    The last regime was clueless.
     
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  35. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    Here's my point: When this thread began, the gist of the debate was that we needed to move on and get a better QB because there was a divide over Tua's ability to lead the team.

    Last year, we tried to replace him with DeShaun Watson. Peripheral issues aside, I understand Watson was an upgrade and I can appreciate the effort to improve the on-field talent. In the off-season, we tried to get Brady and although I would have griped about it, I understand the thought that he was an upgrade.

    This season, he's playing lights out. If some of our fans still aren't sold on him, I would like to know who they'd replace him with. Burrow's not going anywhere. Neither is Herbert, Mahomes, or any other top-10 QB. If you're moping over how meh he is, who else do you want that is available? C.J. Stroud? Caleb Williams? Bryce Young or Stetson Bennett? Rookies are notoriously unreliable. Looks like Geno Smith is the cream of the free agent QB crop. Would you prefer him?

    It's all just arguing for sake of arguing at this point because he's proven to be better than anybody that we could replace him with and even the thickest among us know this. The other point that makes me scratch my head is when people suggest that his success is only because of Waddle/Hill and/or McDaniel. Who cares? All that matters is how well he plays in the situation he's in and griping about the reason why he's doing well is like debating about whether a NASCAR driver's success is mainly due to his car or his team. It doesn't matter, though. What matters is how well he performs given the situation he's in. A bad driver won't win regardless, BTW.
     
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  36. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    His arm is strong enough to maintain a 9.0 YPA, even after an objectively bad performance. The QBs with the strongest arms in the league are well behind him. Jalen Hurts' YPA is 8.2, Patrick Mahomes and Geno Smith's YPA are 8.1 apiece, while Josh Allen's YPA is 7.7. A strong arm is a great attribute to possess. But having a strong enough arm is really what we should care about.

    At this point, arguing about Tua's arm strength is like complaining about how your supermodel wife is actually only 5'9" and not as tall as some of the women who compete against her.
     
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  37. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    upload_2022-12-9_19-13-20.jpeg
     
  38. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    This is nonsense. Flores built a coaching staff and scheme around Tua's strengths and then hired the QB coach he had experience with. Ross was the one going after Brady, and trying to get Flores to tank so they could draft Burrow.
     
  39. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I agree with that.

    Basically, I've been arguing this for years. If you took the worst NFL QB and stuck him on an empty field, throwing through hoops and into trash cans and stuff, the worst QB in the league would make all the throws. They're an elite QB. They're one of like 100 guys in the world employed at that position. So I agree that the arm strength is kinda overblown. But, just for instance, I was watching Buffalo the other day, and the zip and trajectory of his balls is way different than Tua. That doesn't mean he's better, but it does mean that he is able to generate more power more easily than Tua, especially when he's not able to set his feet the right way, or completely, and that is an advantage.
     
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  40. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I think it's patently untrue to argue that Flores did ANYTHING to build and scheme around Tua's strengths. The only thing Flores did well was build a defense.
     
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