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Tua is not the Problem

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, Nov 6, 2021.

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  1. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    How do you explain the 1st game against NE? Tua's limitations aren't a secret.
     
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  2. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Time is a bigger factor than you are making it out to be in this situation. They're in field goal range, there's a little over a minute, you take a shot to the end zone, maybe your receiver can win one on one or draw a flag. It's a touchdown or 1st and goal with the clock stopped with a minute.

    You hit the guy over the middle you get 1st and 10 maybe inside the 20 and you have to spike the ball with 30-35 seconds left.

    You don't really get the situation.
     
  3. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    He had a bad game last night against a defense that he should have destroyed. They were without their top two defensive backs last night. It was a great game plan by the Chargers defensively. We got smoked on both sides of the ball. I can't really make any excuses for Tua. He was awful and big games that actually mean something are becoming an issue with him. The thing I would like to say about him is that he's overcome pretty much any adversity that's been thrown his way. He'll never have a rocket arm like Akili Smith, Ryan Leaf, or JaMarcus Russell but he is absolutely a starting quarterback in this league and he belongs. There have been a ton of things thrown at him so far during his career and he's been able to conquer them. One of the questions I needed answered was can he lead a comeback win? He did that against Baltimore and that was in a game where I had him dead, counted out by halftime. I refused to do that last night, but I damn sure didn't finish watching that game either. Right now, I think his biggest issue is can he win games when they matter the most? He's failed miserably at doing so thus far. Buffalo, Tennessee, we took a loss against San Fran (who's beating everyone right now), and now we've taken one against the Chargers...A team that has struggled all year long to stay afloat. I don't see us beating the Bills on Saturday, but I'm also not ready to say that the sky is falling. We're a playoff team, Tua is going to bounce back, but these are still growing pains for him.
     
  4. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    If you kick the field goal, you still need a TD. An incompletion there forced the decision to kick it, and that was a 55 yards kick which Sanders has struggled mightily with. If you threw to the middle, you'd have 45-50 seconds left and a couple shots at the end zone. You score a TD on the next play, maybe you have a shot with an onside, a pass, and a long field goal.
     
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  5. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    You kick the field goal first to save time for the off-chance you actually recover the onside kick. This has been common practice in the NFL now for a long time.
     
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  6. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    That's just hoping for two miracles instead of one. You need the onside AND you need to score a TD in under a minute.I'd rather be in the position of 30 seconds on the clock and needing an onside and field goal than a minute left and needing an onside and a TD.
     
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  7. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Then you have more of a possibility of not having any chance. The theory is you take the field goal, which I admit wasn't a given in Miami's situation, to guarantee yourself the points. Then it gives you a chance with the most possible time left on the clock. If you go for the touchdown right away you risk the clock running out or not getting a touchdown at all.
     
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  8. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    If this season teaches us anything, hopefully it teaches both Tua fans and haters that assuming the current state of things will continue on in perpetuity is a fools game and the see saw nature of this thread will keep going forever until either 1 of 2 things happens: He continues playing this poorly and is eventually replaced; or, he gets back to form and eventually goes on a deep playoff run this season or in the future.

    Either way, any Dolphin fan has to be concerned that he could look so good early on in the season and be playing so poorly now.
     
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  9. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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  10. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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  11. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    This is a good description, and one I think is pretty spot on:

    ...what the Chargers did well was bump the receivers. That's going to throw off the timing of all these routes and anticipation plays. It forces Tua to read the field and throw receivers open rather than expect a guy to be at a spot at a certain time.
     
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  12. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    What just happened to Kyler Murray is the exact reason you don't pay run first quarterbacks.

    Murray will go down as the worst contract in NFL history.
     
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  13. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    There's plenty of video online with all 22 footage showing McDaniels adjustments to the Chargers takign away the middle of the field with similar play concepts but with outbreaking routes instead of inside. Tua just flat out doesn't take the throws to the outside that were open, forces to the middle, or just wastes the opportunity throwing it away. Plenty of open WR's underneath and checkdowns/RB's in the flats too. McDaniel is giving him options; he's just not seeing it, not taking it, or not confident in making the throw. Whatever it is, if your QB can only succeed in one area of the field, you don't have the right QB.
     
  14. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Enjoy!

    Oh and keep in mind the accuracy and tight windows these throws were made. Only an idiot would say this wasn’t elite quarterback play.
     
  15. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    The rest of the season will be about whether Tua is a one trick pony or whether he can make the adjustments to make the defense cover more of the field.

    I’m willing to give him the remainder of the season to see if he can make that adjustment to his game. We’re screwed next year for draft picks, so it’s probably a 2 year evaluation realistically before we could consider moving on.

    The way I’m looking at this is through 11 games he’s the 2nd highest passer. If it’s more of the same then he falls back into that average/middle tier QB. If he can right the ship and evolve, maybe just maybe this team can do something.
     
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  16. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    I would give that award to the 2022 broncos.
     
  17. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, but this discussion was about arm strength.
     
  18. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    Good breakdown. This is what I'm talking about when I say Tua doesn't have the tools for adjustments. He can't make these throws to the sideline:

     
  19. Springveldt

    Springveldt Season Ticket Holder

    So if a top 10 QB of all time can't carry a team, who can? Is it just guys that are 6'5 and have rocket arms that can do it?

    It will be a terrible game again if McD keeps calling 15-20 yard passes into the most congested part of the field. Would be nice if we could get some cheap yardage from crossing patters, screens, swing passes etc. Or you know, have a running game that could at least help out in some way rather than running into a pile of bodies.

    He didn't get pressured because he got the ball out so early as he knew the pressure was coming. Go look at the PFF blocking grades, the OL was not good and Armstead should have had another week off at least.

    There's no getting around he was terrible again but there has to be something else going on. This isn't just a case of the offensive scheme being found out, there must be something else that is making him rush his throws.
     
  20. Springveldt

    Springveldt Season Ticket Holder

    This is my position as well. After 11 games he still has a 108 rating, he's had 5 games of elite ratings, 1 of very good, 1 of above average and 1 of average with 3 very poor/terrible games (although he didn't finish the Cincy game) so really 2 poor/terrible games. Most teams in the league would kill for those returns from their QB this season yet here we are with people wanting to throw him on the scrap heap.

    Let's see if he can adjust for the rest of the season and start to learn to take the underneath stuff or the out routes if they are available. If he can't and he can truly only throw to the middle of the field then yes, it will be time to start looking again and another wasted 3 years.

    If you had said before this season that Tua would have a 108 rating and be the 2nd highest rated QB in the league going into Week 15 people would have said you were crazy/on drugs/homer etc but here we are and there are still calls for him to be gone at the end of the season. Maybe we need to step back and put things into perspective?
     
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  21. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Thanks yourself. Had you actually WATCHED the videos, you would have seen there were PLENTY of balls thrown OUTSIDE the numbers AND into tight coverage.

    Folks like you are so hell bent on this "arm strength" argument that it's IDIOTIC!!! You guys have taken such a hard line stance that when we've won and dominated, your replies have been "yea, but"...and when we've lost it's been a "see, I told you".

    Tua has clearly shown that he is NOT the problem. All of the throws folks like you have claimed over and over and over again that he can't make, he can and HAS made, numerous times over! That argument has been clearly debunked.

    Now if you want to discuss what's happening with Tagovailoa now and why he's not making throws he's made NUMEROUS times before (there are HOURS of footage showing he has), then we can have THAT discussion. I do see something is "off" with Tua, but to revert back to the same "arm strength" argument that's been debunked is nothing more than an immature, juvenile baseless argument.

    What's even worse, I don't even know why I make an effort to try and convince any of you.
     
  22. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    Jury is still out (pun intended) but I think Deshaun Watson contract will have a chance to make a run at it.
     
  23. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I disagree- hopefully Deshaun Watson will go down as the worst contract in NFL history. I cheered when he was benched this weekend and I hope he completely washes out of the league.
     
  24. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Tua does nos have a strong arm. Just because you say he does does not make it so. He lacks velocity on his throws and cannot make good throws off platform and on the run. None of the clips you shared showed off a strong arm. Yes, Tua can make good throws when he has his feet set, and the reciever is open and within his range, but he cannot make the harder or longer throws off platform or off script. He regularly throws up wounded ducks with loopy trajectories and little velocity. On Sunday we saw Herbert make some throws that Tua has never been able to make because he doesn't have the arm and athleticism Herbert does.

    This is not to say Tua sucks, he can still run an offense and make it work even with a limited arm, but the limitations are there and restricts what the offense can an can't do. Defenses as of late have been jamming recievers and clogging the middle of the field. Tua's success thus far has been all about timing and throwing to open spots over the middle. Now that defenses are clogging those spots and disrupting the timing by jamming recievers, it forces Tua to start throwing outside the numbers, which is not his strength. Tua is having a hard time adjusting to this, and it's not really McDaniels fault. The throws to the outside are there, Tua is just not making them.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2022
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  25. Springveldt

    Springveldt Season Ticket Holder

    For all this arm strength talk, I just saw an image of Herbert’s passes and 32 of his 39 completions were within 10 yards of the LOS. He had 14 completions that were behind the LOS and that idiot Boyer was still calling cover 0 blitzes.

    I wonder how many here would be calling Tua a dink and dunk QB if he played like that? Personally, I’m hoping we do see more of that.
     
  26. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Off-platform is the new Tua buzzword.
     
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  27. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    Totally agree, it seems he was forcing everything to Hill. Trying to prove he was better then Herbert perhaps?
     
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  28. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    Well, Bart Simpson Boyer is not a good DC. Watching the game against the Raiders you could see all the screens the Chargers ran. Like well over half their plays. The Raiders got pressure with 4 , not sure why BSB decided to attack and let the screen work perfectly, honestly horrible game plan again by him.
     
  29. Striking

    Striking Junior Member

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    It likely was a little bit of that. We know he's aware of what fandom has to say. But I think you saw a major difference between experience. One a 4 year starter in college and 2 years at NFL. Versus someone with a lot less experience. I'll just leave this Chargers game as a growing lesson for Tua.
     
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  30. Springveldt

    Springveldt Season Ticket Holder

    I watched the presser from McDaniel yesterday and he basically said the same. Didn't come out and say "Tua was forcing it" but he said something along the lines of "some players were pressing and not taking what was available."

    I've watched a couple of All-22 breakdowns and there were throws in the flat to be had but Tua was ignoring it and forcing it downfield. Maybe it's the "I'll show them and shut them up" in him and he's still bothered by the check down claims last year, or the claims he couldn't throw over the middle last year but he needs to learn quickly to take what is there. Manning is one of the greatest QB of all time and he never refused a check down in his whole career.

    I'm a paid up member of the "Josh Boyer is a clown" club now. 32 passes competed under 10 yards from the LOS while only 7 past that and he still never adjusted. It also shows that you don't need a big arm to be successful since everyone is creaming themselves over how Herbert played.
     
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  31. Springveldt

    Springveldt Season Ticket Holder

    Seems to be the whole NFL media buzzword. If you can't throw a 60 yard laser while being "off-platform" it seems like you can't be a successful QB anymore according to the media.
     
  32. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Zach Wilson was a guy everyone drooled over for his ability to sling it "off-platform". Turns out, he can't complete a pass in the pocket.
     
  33. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    I think a lot of it is Tua's inability to read the field and change up. He's more of a system QB. He's throwing to a location no matter what and expecting the player to be open due to scheme. The video above from Solak highlights this. I think that's why the system with Flores worked for him. Very simple. See this. Quick pass here. I think the more time Tua has, the worse he gets. McDaniel just developed a system where he didn't actually need to read anything, but now with the way defenses are playing him, he'll need to.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2022
  34. Springveldt

    Springveldt Season Ticket Holder

    This is blatantly untrue if you watch the film this year, he's being going through progressions all year. Not sure why you are rehashing an old negative that has been proven wrong this season. Also that Solak guy has been saying Tua sucks for ages and I think someone said he's a Pats fan as well so it's not someone I pay attention to.

    I do watch this guys video's though, a former NFL QB (albeit a short lived one) who has done a breakdown nearly every week.

     
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  35. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    It's not blatantly untrue at all. That video doesn't even go over the examples Solak highlighted. Additionally, he goes over the play that should have been a pick at 3:30. What is Tua reading there? There's 4 defenders. Why would he throw it there? It's because he doesn't read the field well, and he's simply expecting the guy to be open, so that's where it went. When he goes over the play at 6:15 mark, he's not understanding why Tua won't throw that out route to the sideline. Not a progression problem. It's because he doesn't have the arm strength for the throw. So he takes the throw to the middle and still misses him because he threw without his feet under him. Notice how Tua was running a bit to the sideline before throwing. Which again, is an arm strength related issue where accuracy suffers as well.
     
  36. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    I really enjoy videos like this. I enjoy the breakdowns, the route overlays, the defense and what did/should have happened.

    Watching the game real time, the huge miss on Hill on play action, it sure looked like Tua was WAY off on his pass, but this breakdown shows Hill slowing and turning his head away from the route. Makes you wonder what HE was thinking. Had he stayed in full stride, that had touchdown written all over it.

    Hope they took a good long hard look at game film today so they could see what we just saw.
     
  37. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Remember when the Tua haters accused Tua supporters of cherry picking stats?

    My how the turn tables have turned.
     
  38. Springveldt

    Springveldt Season Ticket Holder

    I thought at the time it was a horrible throw by Tua as well. But as Jenkins says, Tua is doing a touchdown pose after letting go of it but Tyreek just lost the ball for some reason. Tua did what people have been screaming at him to do which was throw the ball out there and let Tyreek go get it.

    If you go to his YouTube channel he has broken down Tua's play nearly every week and he's highlighted multiple times how well Tua has been seeing the field this year and how well he has being going through his progressions. Something has changed the last couple of weeks.
     
  39. Springveldt

    Springveldt Season Ticket Holder

    The guy was a QB who made it to the NFL (briefly) and who runs a QB training company. He's broken down every Tua film this season so of course he understands Tua's game. It's not a one off video. But hey, obviously you know better than him, it's all arm strength right? Just like how he's not reading progressions and just blindly throwing to his first spot and hoping someone will be there. /s just in case it's needed.

    I've watched nearly every breakdown of Tua this year by him and he's pointed out multiple times how well Tua is seeing the field and how well he's been getting through his progressions. I was just wanting to highlight his latest video as it's an unbiased QB breakdown rather than some kid who thinks Tua sucks.

    The throw at 3:30 was a 3rd down and Tua was trying to force something. Horrible throw, should have taken the checkdown and got off the field.

    Most of us will be hoping the last 2 weeks are learning exercises for our QB. I know not all of will be but most of us will.
     
  40. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    This is not rocket science. Tua is a spot thrower, he has been throwing to spots in the middle of the field all season where Hill and Waddle are expected to be wide open. Last two weeks defenses have been clogging up those spots in the middle with safeties and linebackers, and are jamming our recievers at the the line to disrupt the timing routes. Tua is still throwing to the same spots as before even though those spots are no longer open and recievers are no longer running free.

    It's not a mystery what has changed in the last couple of weeks. Tua needs to show he can adjust and make the longer throws to the outside, or go off script and buy more time for his recievers to get open, or check down.
     
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