Tua is not the Problem

You have a way of ridiculing posters without ever responding to their arguments. What I said is correct. Ask around who the "elite" QBs are that are still playing and you'll get similar lists: Brady, Rodgers, Wilson, Mahomes and increasingly Burrow. And yes people acknowledge that Brady, Rodgers and especially Wilson are playing subpar at the moment, but those are the QBs that generally get mentioned.

Only if you go by spot rankings, as in who is doing really well at the moment, does that list change. But then you'll get Tua on that list, even Geno Smith, and yes Herbert in some cases. Those are snapshots. Over time though it's the guys that have elite stats over very large sample size that are considered elite. EVERY elite QB (over large sample size) has elite stats. Performance is what matters.

Now please respond again with one of your completely uninformative posts.

 

I'm not sure what is so funny about the post. Herbert has a 96.7 career rating while coming up for nearly 2000 pass attempts. He's a good QB but he's not elite.

The guy you all want rid of has a career rating of 95.3 while being in a much, much worse situation apart from his last 11 games.

People keep bring up Tua only "feasting" on bad defences while Herbert best games (over 100 rating) this season have been against the Raiders (24rd), KC (19th), Cardinals (32nd), Texans (26th) and the Dolphins (23rd).

His ratings against the better defences? 66.3 against Broncos (4th), 73.0 against 49ers (1st) and that's it. That's the only 2 top 10 defences he's played all season. Next best would be the 15th ranked Jaguars were he had a rating of 74.0

People just fall in love with his size and highlight reel throws. Even on Sunday he was Checkdown Charlie, he completed 32 passes that didn't even travel 10 yards past the LOS.

It's only size queens that think he's elite.

 

No. It’s because I won’t play this stupid game: My original comment was because of some Tuanonners who kept saying Herbert isn’t good and Tua was going to woop him in that game. So instead of showing the character to just admit they were wrong, they, as I previously stated, start shifting the goalposts and trying to make the conversation about whether Herbert is elite or not. Whether he is or not, that was never the point. I never said elite.

 

You're just making up stuff now. Who here said Herbert isn't good? I don't recall anyone saying he isn't good, and if there is someone who said that it's not me, so why direct such a response towards me? I've said for years he's either solidly above average or slightly above depending on the year but he's not elite AND he's shown no improvement. No shifting of goalposts over multiple years.

If you want shifting of goalposts it's by the anti-Tua posters. It wasn't long ago they said he couldn't overcome adversity, whether it was playing with a bad OL (like Herbert did), or perform well when the rest of the team didn't, or play at a sustained high level (because the stats btw didn't show that). One after another an excuse was made — goalposts were shifted — when he proved otherwise. No one here has shifted goalposts more than the anti-Tua crowd.

Now.. where the issue of "admitting who's right or wrong" comes in is whether we should have taken Herbert or Tua. At this point in time there's no way you can say it's obvious the right choice was Herbert. What if Tua shows he can bounce back? Are all the anti-Tua posters just going to stop posting again? Tua performed below average over his first 2 years (combined), but then he had a decent stretch of elite play that Herbert has never shown. It's way too premature to see who is "right" or "wrong" about whether Herbert > Tua or Tua < Herbert. Let it play out. Don't act like 2 really bad games annuls evidence from all the other games.

 

The spots he is throwing aren't predetermined in the way you are implying. They are chosen by Tua based on his reads of what the D is doing, and the reads are subsequent throws are set by the coaching staff. Just like the majority of plays in the NFL. This is really basic stuff. Defenses have adjusted how they are playing the Dolphins vs how they are playing other teams, and it's up to the coaches to adjust the Dolphins O, and what Tua is supposed to be doing. Here is what I see happening, Tua has missed some throws he wasn't missing earlier. The OL is struggling when the DL runs games. Defenses are not respecting the run as the Dolphins don't run, and are keeping the LBs deeper affecting intermediate throws, and feeling free to run those pass rush games. All of these things can be addressed. Now we get to see if they will be. This isn't on Tua to go off script to fix. That is absurd.

 

Tua missed throws vs the 9ers, no doubt about that. But vs the Chargers there weren't many throws he missed. He did refuse to check down, which allowed the Chargers to play like they did. To me, that was his failure which cost the offense first downs and potentially scores.

 

The QB should not be a Robot only doing what coaches tell him. QB should be able to go off script and create when the play isn't there, or go to his second, third and fourth read instead of locking on to his first read which is what he did against the Chargers.

The spot he is throwing to is predetermined based on his pre-snap read, but he is not adjusting to what the defense does post snap.

He is not missing throws, it's just that before he was throwing to wide open recievers in the middle of the field who were getting free releases off the line. Now the receivers are being jammed at the line and the open spots in the middle are no longer there. He needs to be able to read and react to what the defense does post snap and go somewhere else with the ball or create something on his own.

 

Great. I’ll still use my precious response.

You all can continue with whether he is “elite” or not.

 

All 22 is out now so I thought I check out the first part of the game and test these suppositions.


1st series Ball at 25
max protect only 3 including the back running patterns no one open, check down covered - Deep sideline to Hill incomplete pass broken up

max protect only 3 including the back running patterns no one open, check down covered - incomplete pass middle might have been dropped might have been knocked away from waddle, great coverage 1v1.

5 out in patterns Hill drops 1st down pass

didn't see one release jammed that series
Punt

2nd series Ball at 2
Run middle one yard

complete to hill over the middle (saw first attempt at a jam on the back releasing late to the flat no effect on play) 1st down

Play action, Pump action to get free rusher to leave feet, complete to Hill behind the line he falls for loss no chance as multiple defenders closing.

Run middle no gain

False start

Back motions to stack 3, bad decision by Tua tries to force ball into coverage, back wide open might have had a chance to get first with a move. No Jams.

Punt

3rd series Ball at 25
Pitch left loss of yards

play action only 2 routes, Deep pass for Hill, should have been 6 points, Hill doesn't track ball at all slows up before ball gets there. Ball released before Hill breaks to post, as soon as the safety squats down. I was at the game and remember this one. Thought it was 6 when the ball in the air. Jam attempted on player not involved in play because he ran a shallow drag.

Sack. Great inside spin move on Armstead. Gesicki gets jammed at the line successfully! Everyone else free releases again. No short patterns, no chance for Tua.

Punt

4th series Ball at 25
Jam attempt on Gesicki. He is 1v1 with a back and the ball goes to him deep and out of bounds. Jam may have disrupted timing on the play in a manner that effected the play for the first time all game. Still, better ball and G has a chance with his height advantage.

PI on throw to Waddle in middle 1st down Tried and failed to jam Hill with coverage rolled to him. Waddle gets free release.

Middle Run for 6

FUMBLED RUN PLAY! YOU KNOW THE ONE. 6 POINTS FOR THE GOOD GUYS!

I don't see much point in doing the rest of the game. I remember it going the same with the offense being slightly better in the 2nd half. They didn't just jam and disrupt timing, that is bad analysis. Tua clearly missed at least one open check down, and that was the worst of his decisions in that sample by far, but there weren't a lot of checkdown options. Lots of deep routes and they did a good job of coverage. Check my work if you don't believe me.

 

I said "it seems" that he disappears in big games.

 

That is because every game is a big game, and the offense sucked the last two. Baltimore for example is as big as the Chargers game and bigger than the 49ers. The two Buffalo games were/will be even bigger. It's perception based on the latest result. Every game from here on out is a "big game". Hopefully.

 

Did you just admit you didn't see the 49ers game ? Tua was missing throws in that game he had been making for several weeks.
Also, I asked a question days ago as to why weren't the Tua haters showing their faces when he was lighting it up and not one had the balls to admit his play didn't fit their opinion of him so they hid under a rock hoping Tua started struggling so they could resurface.

 

I said during his hot streek that I was not impressed because he was doing this against lousy defenses and with the best weapons in the game at his disposal. I was not going to participate in the circle jerk and said I wanted to see him do it against better defenses who tightened up the coverages, and in bigger games before declaring him a franchise QB.

Most others on here were already declaring him elite and a franchise QB, I was not going to participate in that.

When Tua shows he can perform at a concistently high level against good defenses, then I will jump on the bandwagon, not before.

So far this season, except for the 4th quarter against the ravens, he has not looked good when facing good defenses.

 

Its obvious you were more frustrated with his play during the winning streak than you are these last two games. Now that Tua struggled for two consecutive games you're back with your " all is right in the world again" posts. Keep in mind I'm not exactly the biggest Tua homer by the way but I'm not about to bash him for going through a rough stretch either, especially when he proved he can get it done.

 

It's like you think I'm talking only about this season.

 

It is VERY possible that Tua's abilities allow him to dominate bad teams, but his limitations prevent him from dominating good defenses. He needs more help against better teams.

This is just the Tannehill argument all over again.

 

He was good against Buffalo except you keep saying he wasn't. 123 rating with over 10 ypa suggests he was very efficient. Not his fault the defence couldn't get off the field and give the offence more possessions.

Why is this "playing against good defences" only held against Tua? By the time this season is over Tua will have played 8 games against top 12 defences in his 14.5 games, more than Mahomes, more than Allen and way more than Herbert. Also what constitutes playing well? Is it just an eye test thing again or are we talking about playing efficiently as set out by the stats?

For me, if Tua finishes the season with a passer rating of around 100 that would be excellent, especially considering how many times he would have faced top defences. It would also signify another jump in his rating and that he is still progressing.

 

If Tua falls flat on his face for an extended period of time we'll toss him aside and get a new QB. Won't be the first time we had to do that.
But, its the phoney-ness that I'm calling out. Some posters here are trying to get people to believe they're hoping and waiting for Tua to rise above his " limitations " when that's the furthest thing from the truth. Their Tua hatred runs deep, so deep that they get nervous when Tua performs well. Their biggest nightmare would be for Tua to light it up and win playoff games.
I would respect those who just come out and say they do not want Tua to succeed because they want him out of here as soon as possible. But instead of admitting that ,they'll come out of the woodwork and spew their B.S. when Tua struggles because they're so happy.

 

Buffalo was missing half their defensive starters plus some of their top backups in that game, and even so Tua only went 13 of 18 for 186 yards and 1 touchdown, and we barely won the game. That was not an impressive performance by any means.

Against the Ravens he was terrible for 3 out of 4 quarters, then the Ravens had multiple defensive breakdowns and blown coverages in the 4th quarter which let Hill run free over the top of the defense. That 4th quarter against the Ravens is the only time this season Tua has impressed against a good defense. In the other games against good defenses like Cincy, Pittsburgh, NE, and San Fran he has looked bad. He has only looked good when playing lousy defenses through the weak part of our schedule.

And now even bad defenses like the chargers have figured out that the key to stopping Tua and the dolphins is to take away the middle of the field routes because he doesn't have the arm strength or creativity to throw well outside the numbers or create plays on his own.

As we are now out of the weak part of the schedule and playing better defenses Tua is going to have to show what he is really made of. So far he has not proven he is a franchise QB. He is good, but not great and has some serious limitations.

 

That Buffalo defense has been injured all season and they're still #2 in defense by points allowed. The injuries they had just recently against the Jets were worse than against us! And not just against the Jets. I mean they didn't have von Miller last 2 games.

Here's their injury report for this season:


That's both offense and defense, but there's no way you can argue their injuries on defense were somehow worse for Miami than against the Jets, or against many other teams. Tua has shown he can play well against top defenses, most notably the Bills and the Ravens who are #8 right now. You need to stop with this fiction that somehow there's this one game anomaly with the Bills defense against Miami.

 

Tua has shown FAR more than Tannehill ever did. Tua has played at elite levels with a bad OL, demonstrated he can carry the team when necessary in some games and engineer massive comebacks only Marino was known for in Dolphins history. He's played for long stretches at an elite level, something Tannehill never did regardless of opponent. And he's played well against good teams and good defenses — see my previous post for why this claim the Bills defense was anomalously injured in the Dolphins game is total bogus. And he doesn't have bad pocket presence. Tua is no question the best QB we've had since Marino excepting that one year by Pennington.

That doesn't mean he's proven what he needs to. Durability is still a concern though with each game he starts less so. And yes I agree that his recent play is playing into the narrative of "choker" given that we're in the playoff hunt, which of course is extremely important. But that's a FAR cry from Tannehill.

The big difference here is you don't automatically get rid of a guy like Tua even if he chokes at the end of this year whereas with Tannehill it was clear by year 3 he was never going to carry a team. "Choking" might be something he learns to overcome, and you need to give him the time to prove it. Before this season I said Tua's first 2 years were disappointing enough that Tua needed to show massive improvement this year, like 1 standard deviation above league average, which is about 100 rating right now. He's done that. He also needed to lead a team to the playoffs or only barely miss it. We're in the thick of the race right now. Tua may or may not end up being a true franchise QB (can't have one that chokes in big games), but you don't get rid of him next year. You give him time to fix the remaining issues, which are mostly mental. This is NOT the same as a Tannehill situation.

 

his arm has not impressed me at all. he is totally terrible.

 

Yes it is the same. You again have a QB with some elite traits, but with serious flaws, who seems to go missing in big games.

The people who largely argued for moving on from Tannehill are largely backing Tua. People like me who supported Tannehill are generally favoring moving on from Tua, and for me, it's because I realized how difficult it is to win with a limited QB and a terrible oline.

 

What is considered a "big game" around here seems to be a moving goalpost. Before the season so many people were saying we had a murderer's row of 4 "big games" to start the season with (Patriots, Ravens, Bills and Cinci) and that these games would be a true test for both Tua and McDaniel. It's only after Tua did well against the Ravens and Bills did the revisionist history begin. Those were "big games" dude.

I don't think this is true at all. For example, I think hitman (if I remember correctly) has always thought Tannehill wasn't cut out to be a true franchise QB. Furthermore, which version of resnor are we talking about here? You started off solidly anti-Tua with the caveat you'd love to be proven wrong about him, but then very clearly gravitated towards being pro-Tua to the point you posted multiple times you "were wrong" about him, and now after 2 crappy games you suddenly switch back to anti-Tua again.

You're basically flipping between positions based on Tua's most recent performance. I think you need to allow for larger sample size here before deciding whether you're actually anti-Tua or pro-Tua because it just keeps changing lol. What if Tua has a good performance against Buffalo? You're just going to flip again? Let it play out man.. don't act like 2 crappy games means Tua can't overcome (or learn to overcome) adversity in playoff-like situations.

 

How many times do I have to repeat myself? Tua did not play great against Buffalo, even with all their injuries, and he was terrible against the ravens for 3 out of 4 quarters, with that 4th quarter being mostly due to defensive breakdowns by the Ravens.

He definitely HAS NOT proven he can perform at a high level against good defenses. In fact he has proven the opposite so far. He has only really looked good against bad defenses.

I like how you completely ignore his bad performances against Cincy, Pittsburgh, NE, San Fran, and San Diego, and no, it is not him just being a choker. He is just not good enough to play at a high level against good defenses.

 

Injuries and defensive breakdowns.

Two things that happen in football every game! Nobody cries for us when the Dolphins have injured players. Nobody cries for us when Boyer let's the Chargers get 16 yards on a 3rd and 17 at the 18 yard line.

It's part of the game. He basically has to throw for 400 yards and 5 touchdowns against a fully healthy 2000 Ravens team for you to give him any credit.

 

No don't deflect. The point of my post was so that you don't keep going around claiming the Bills with all their injuries weren't a great defense when we played them. They were. So that counts.

And it's ridiculous to suggest that a 123.8 rating is "not playing great". It's statistically WAY above average, and while stats don't mean as much for a single game you only need to go back and look at the game thread and post-game comments here, and most people thought he played really well. It started to change a lot of people's minds about Tua. Sure you're one of the big holdouts throughout the entire season, which is fine, but most acknowledged he played really well.

So yes he's shown he can play at a high level against at two good defenses. I do admit he played only so-so against NE and Cinci and terrible against SF, and he still has to prove he can play well in do-or-die games. He's at least 0-1 with the Chargers game and maybe 0-2 this season in those depending on how you view the SF game (was that do-or-die?), and he never played well in such games in previous seasons. But let's give him credit for the Bills game. He played well against a very good defense.

 

I am not giving him credit for the bills game, he only threw 18 passes in that game and faced no real adversity. Passer rating does not mean much when you only throw 18 passes. That game was mostly won by our bend but don't break defense. And against the Ravens he was terrible except for that great 4th quarter.

If those are the best two examples you can come up with of him playing well against good defenses, I'm not convinced.

Let's see how he finishes out the season, if he can perform at a high level against Buffalo, New England and the Jets who have good defenses, then I will eat crow.

Otherwise I remain unconvinced and see him as a mid tier QB who had his numbers inflated by playing with Tyreek during the weak part of our schedule.

 

Don't worry, we won't have to wait much longer to see what Tua is really made of. Buffalo, NE, and the Jets coming up are tough opponents with good defenses, and we are now in the playoff hunt. No more easy schedule and lousy defenses, now is when we get to see the real Tua.

 

Totally fine with saying let's see how he finishes the season. But if you're just going to interpret a good performance as a bad performance, and say after the fact that the game doesn't really count — you weren't saying the Bills game doesn't count BEFORE we played them — then this isn't a fair evaluation.

But yes let's see what happens, and what the narrative is. Anyway, if he continues his crappy performances I'll join you in bashing him.

 

No adversity?! He got knocked out of the freaking and came back and won!

 

Just checking in for another daily episode of Tua Sucks. The same old bull sh1t every day.

 

Oh yeah that's right, he got knocked out by a strong shove, and it was not Tua who won that game. He actually had to do very little in that game.

 

Then by that silly logic, Josh Allen had very little to do with the Bills game then either. Allen was 42/63 for 400 yards…and only 2 touchdowns. That’s it…only TWO touchdowns for the entire team.

Usually when you see QB stats like that, the team usually scores at least 4 touchdowns, plus the field goals here and there. If I looked at those stats on any quarterback and didn’t see the score, I would assume that team scored at least 34 points.

But hey…at least Allen has an arm, huh?

 

For me, it's how spectacularly bad he's been. If it's an injury, great, that's 3 seasons in a row with play limiting/destroying injuries. If it's not an injury, then that doesn't bode well.

 

His little body will never stay healthy a full season. What's crazy is he's never hit. So rare. He always has the lowest QB hits in the league. Yet when he does get hit, his body breaks.

 

There were only like 40 offense plays total. Was he supposed to pass on each one?

 

The Dolphins on the season pass 63% of the time. They put Tua in more of a game manager role that game.

 

The Bills had 40+ minutes time of possession! Earth to tacos. Earth to tacos.

 

What part of what I said was untrue? If they had 40 offensive snaps, Tua should have had 25 passes if they passed their normal rate (63%). As is he had 18, which is 45% passing. In terms of the NFL season, that would be bottom 3 in pass/run ratio.

They put Tua in a game manager role, and didn't trust/want him to pass. That's OK with me. They won.