USA Today Inside Slant

meh. i don't agree with that. (although i do thank you for posting the link sir! )

i don't see Pennington as the problem... he's been relatively mistake-free, which i love. Chad has gotten very little help from his o-line or his WR's.... so how can you blame him? It also doesn't help that our defense gets us down by 14+ points before the end of the first quarter....

Henne looks good but everyone seems to be overlooking the fact that he played in a 2-minute offense at the end of the game in garbage time when Arizona had moved into a prevent defense.... he still played well but under different circumstances than Pennington had.

i'm just as optimistic about henne as the next guy, but guarded optimism guys, guarded optimism. pennington should have this team this year.

 

K the coaching staff might be upset with Ginn for whatever reason, sure sit him at WR, but replacing him at the primary kick/punt returner is a mistake plain and simple.

 

i'm really confused about Ginn and what is going on.... i wish they would tell us more about what is going on behind the scenes that is putting Ginn down the depth chart.

Bess is doing a find job at KR and PR duties... but not better than Ginn was IMO. If taking Ginn off the KR & PR duties was to give him rest for his role as a starting WR, why are we not seeing him as a starting WR then? I think at the very least, Ginn has earned the starting spot as a KR/PR...

 

Yeah Tex, i agree, something is going on behind the scene's, he was non existant in the Zona game. Bess did a good job on SP Teams, but not putting Ginn out there was a head scratcher, especially since i don't think zona was going to kick away from him.

But you dont' sit a guy like ginn on special teams who could score 7 on any given play when your desperate for points. It should be intersting to see what happens in Foxborough, if he's non existent again, like him or not, i could see him being moved.

 

Arizona was not playing a prevent defense.

They wanted to keep us out of the end zone, and it was very clear. They might have been more relaxed because of the score, but they were not in garbage time.

Pitching a shutout or keeping another team out of the end zone is a big deal.

Pennington has not been impressive I don't care what anyone says. A 5.8 Ypa is not impressive or good I dont' care who's fault it is (wr, oline, good D etc.)

The "pennington is safe with the ball, low TD/INT ratio" etc. has only been true two of his 8 years befor this one.

 

To add to that, he's been throwing in double coverage for over three years now!

 

did you watch the last drive? obviously at the goalline they tightened up coverage & schemes, but the entire drive down the field was very lax compared to what Pennington had to deal with all game.

garbage time is defined by the time left in the game and the score. we were down by almost 30 points.... don't know how you can actually refute that...

you seem to have a real agenda on Pennington. You don't seem to fault the o-line, the WRs not getting open or catching the ball, etc. You also fail to give Pennington any benefit of the doubt for playing on such a bad team. you take a guy who (for his career) leads the league in passing efficiency, then throw him to the wolves after two games from playing on the worst team in the league with no rushing attack, WRs that don't catch, and an o-line that is performing mediocre at best.

given the quality of QBs this franchise has had since Marino, i'm very surprised that you are holding the QB position on this team to such a high standard. i'm looking at it in a relative manner.... Pennington is clearly the best QB we've had since Marino.

 

Did you watch the last drive? Arizona was not playing prevent or a vanilla defense like you have been saying. Pennington can't throw the ball downfield and it is killing our offense. There is no denying that.

 

We're the same people that ridiculed Joey Harrington for having slightly misleading accuracy numbers (even though they were never great) because of his checkdowns. The same people who noted the short passes are easier to complete than the longer ones, hence the higher percentage passes caught number of a Welker to a Chambers.

I've never been a fan on Pennington, before he got here, and now. So I'm not "throwing him to the wolves" you can look for those who did like before for that

Our Oline has always sucked. I disagree with the best QB comment. I'd rather have Frerotte. You can't be a power running game without the threat of a deep ball. Period. Point blank. What i see is a weaker armed guy (not an indictment by itself but important) who has not been this low bad decision guy since 2004, before his surgery.

If we had better receivers we could get away with a pennington. We don't, and I fault the FO for that a little. Of course our oline, and our WRs share the blame. That doesn't absolve Pennington.

 

well i don't know why you're bringing up harrington. i have never liked him, never supported him, and his numbers don't even come close to pennington. the reason i brought up the Pennington stats was because someone made a comment that DBs don't respect Pennington... i was just proving a counterpoint and backed it up with stats.

it's one thing to not like a player b/c he's on an opposing team, but a completely different thing altogether when you don't support the key member of our current team. might i ask what your beef is with pennington? is it just the arm strength argument, which seems to be the common denominator for everyone? that arm-strength swept us every year while he was on the Jets.... and garnered them several playoff appearances while (again) giving him the best QB accuracy in the league.

Frerotte had a career year when he played here, but he played with a lot more talent surrounding him. Frerotte would suck here this year. Did you watch him last year in St. Louis? 56% passing, 7 TDs with 12 picks, on a team with more talent than we have. you think he'd improve on that here? i don't think so... In fact when he played here he only had a 52% completion percentage... not very good. We loved him b/c he had a deep ball. But what good is a deep ball if you don't have anyone that can get deep (like we don't have currently; and don't cite Ginn.. he gets jammed on the line and can't get deep before the QB has to throw the ball).

Lastly, Frerotte's best year matches up with Pennington's worst year, statistically, if you count almost a full season of starting.... so no, i don't think Frerotte was a better QB than Pennington.

for once we agree on something. we have crappy WRs. i definitely fault the FO... they built a crappy team this year. it does not absolve Pennington, but you have to weigh that when you are complaining about QB play. You also seem to forget that Pennington has only been on this team for two months... not a lot of time to learn everything & build a rapport with all the players and learn their idiosyncracies on routes and whatnot.

Lastly with all the talk and analyzing on the problems, you seem to be focusing on QB play when in reality that is the least of our problems right now. i don't see you addressing the secondary, the o-line, poor tackling, the WRs... but i see you going after Pennington in multiple threads.... it just makes me think that maybe you're not acknowledging or understanding the majority of the reasons we suck right now, or at the very least are mis-placing your blame.

 

I'm just knocking those who I think are getting propped up wrongfully. Our whole team is a mess, QB play included.

If someone were to start extolling the play of our WRs, they'll be next on my hitlist

My beef with Pennington is that we were not the right fit for him. Lets examine his limitations. First, he has a week arm. This isn't a fatal flaw, but it is when you take into consideration what we're trying to do. We're trying to be a power running team. That means you have to be able to execute successfully a deep play. If you shorten that field, you're making it really hard to establish a running game.

Nobody, and I mean nobody, respects Pennington's deep ball. Being able to complete one here and there, doesn't mean it's going to be respected. Defenses know they can close on those deep passes if need be. Pennington isn't a weak arm compared to a Drew Brees or anyone else deemed to have a weak arm. His is way way down there.

All a D needs to do is patrol the middle. They'll let us have the underneath stuff, the outside stuff, and the deep stuff. That isn't hard for a Defense to do.

 

i'll agree that Pennington still isn't the best fit here, but he's better than McCown, who was otherwise set to be our starter this year.

so in that regard, i'm ok with him.

 

You know, sometimes I wish we'd throw in a McCown or some other journeyman QB with a strong arm.

Losing with spectacular plays at least entertains me for a bit. I can't think of one "OMFG!" play the last two weeks.

Plus I woulnd't care about McCowns psyche. henne and beck I would be more cautious of.

But this Sunday, we start our turnaround. And I pray Penny will have a great game. In the end I just want to win.

 

He can't get off the line. His speed is useless when he can't get off the line. Also, despite the speed, a good CB like Darelle Revis you saw in week one can hold Ginn down. He hasn't been able to get separation this season at all which is why he hasn't had many looks. That's just one of the problems with our offense and Ginn himself.

From what I hear, Wilford doesn't use his body well which is why you don't see him in the red zone a lot. He didn't have a great amount of opportunities in Jacksonville in the red zone either.

 

On that play, Ginn was boxed out by Revis and really didn't have any shot at that ball. Since Wilford doesn't use his body well, the same problem could have been for Wilford. Plus, Wilford wasn't even activated for that game.

I agree.

 

a lot of your post is what has been going on, so i'm confused at how you think this will "improve" things...?

he can't get separation... that's his problem. he gets jammed at the line and by the time he gets around the jam, the ball already needs to be out..... so unless Ginn gets taught how to beat the jam at the line and get separation on the routes, he's not going to be productive as a WR.

we did put Wilford in, but the problem is he isn't getting separation and has been dropping balls too! this last week i would put the missed attempt on henne's shoulders (bad throw to wilford in the endzone), but for the most part i think Wilford is over-hyped about his height.... being 6'4" doesn't mean squat if you can't catch or get separation from the DB.

 

I still don't think that Wilford would have had a shot at the ball either despite his height. The ball was also poorly thrown.

(Credit to MonstBlitz for the gif)

Ah ok. Got it.

 

I agree. He doesn't have the speed to get separation (runs a late 4.7) nor does he have the ability to use his body well to catch the ball. Despite those lacks, he's getting paid $6 million or whatever his salary number is.

 

We had 3 points on the board, so the shut out was off the table.

I think the truth about whether or not the defense was more relaxed when Henne came in is somewhere in the middle. They weren't playing a prevent defense, but were definitely giving the receivers more cushion. That was plain to see. The announcers in the booth saw it and commented on it.

 

Actually it's a credit to the jerk Jet fan I lost the bet to.

 

The part that irks me the most right now is that Henning or whoever else may be responsible does not seem to be even trying to make an effort to get more creative or devise ways to help put the crappy receivers in position to at least be mildly successful. By now it is obvious to everyone what Pennington's limitations on this team, with this roster, are. If Ginn can't get a clean launch off the line, why are they not creating ways for him to get an easier release? They should be motioning him around, putting him in the slot more, and even using more WR screens like the one Henne threw to him.

It just doesn't appear that there are any adjustments being made, and that is what boggles my mind the most right now.

 

I agree. Though I don't feel that Pennington is our main problem by any means, his lack of arm strength makes it much easier for defenses to attack our strength (Ricky and Ronnie). His average per attempt of under 6 yards is evident that he can't get the ball down field. This problem falls on the WRs and Pennington. There have been some times when the receivers have been open. Pennington will under throw anything above 35-40 yards.

AS for Henne, I have to disagree with anyone who says that Arizona was playing in prevent. They absolutely were not. The only prevent they were playing was trying to prevent a TD. They were blitzing and rushing Henne and he showed great poise in that 18 play drive and made throws to the WRs that Pennington didn't and seemingly wouldn't attempt. NFL players are so fast, there is such a small window to get those passes in there that you HAVE to have the arm strength to get the ball into tight spaces. Pennington doesn't have that arm strength. And, in my opinion lacks confidence in himself to attempt those throws, thus all the throws to the TEs and backs - leading to his very low per attempt average.

 

I respect your opinion and you know that, but you also know that I'm going to reply to it. There's a reason I have a high post count .

The problem I have with Wilford is that he doesn't do anything well and because of that, I have a lack of confidence in giving him the ball. The guy can't catch, can't do nothing despite his size, can't gain separation and can't use his body. Since he can't do any of those things, I have very little confidence in throwing the ball to him and I think that's what the coaching staff might be seeing as well now.

Definitely not intending to, your one of my best friends on this site. I was just replying to your opinion.

 

A couple of thoughts. One I think Pennington had a decent game week one and a horrible game week two. I think that Arizona slacked off a teensy bit against Henne but that he was still impressive and outshone CP that game. I think it's a shame that Wilford and Ginn aren't being used more, but I think it's just because Bess and Camarillo are playing harder. And I think that Gus Frerotte was probably the best QB we had here after Marino and we should have kept him on the roster another couple of years. He played well enough that we should have kept him. I'd prefer to have him here mentoring Henne than CP.

 

You'd rather have Gus Frerotte mentoring Henne than Pennington? Not me. Pennington's arm may be weak, but no sane person can question his intelligence and leadership qualities. Those traits are the best things that could rub off on Henne, imo. I think Pennington is just about the perfect mentor for Henne, and that is probably at least 60% of the reason he was even brought to Miami.

 

the average per attempt of under 6 yards this year is due to play-calling & the crappy WRs. Henning is being super-conservative with his calling, and the WR's can't get off coverage... who is pennington going to throw deep to when 4-5 seconds after the snap, the WRs are either blanketed downfield or just breaking the jam off the line? Weak arm strength i'll give you, but that has nothing to do with the problems we have right now...

i still see a much more relaxed & easy defense on Arizona's part even when i watched the game again last night on that final drive... of course there were guys rushing the line - there IS a d-line even in a prevent defense, and our o-line was sucking so bad that even their non-blitz packages were getting to the QB. doesn't mean they weren't softening up guys. I see promise in Henne too, but you guys are acting like he is a better QB than Pennington. He's not.

i wasn't attacking you, just responding to your posts on a forum. you need to get thicker skin if you're going to post/debate online dude, no one was ganging up on you.

x11ty billion. Gus Frerotte over Pennington as a mentor? you guys are looking at this all wrong. the ONLY thing Frerotte had over Pennignton was arm strength. you don't mentor that. you either have it or you don't. what you mentor is how to read defenses, throwing technique, defensive idiosyncracies.... you want an efficient and relatively error-free guy to do that, not a guy who's been a career backup.

i'm seeing a lot of Frerotte homerism on here, but i think you guys are a little jaded on the subject... Frerotte was awesome in 2005 because our other option was Sage Rosenfels.... i can't believe we're having this discussion... you guys think Frerotte is a better QB than Pennington?

jesus.

 

Can you honestly blame them? Rem all the QBs we had since Marino? Out of all the QB's we have had after Marino, only "Ears" before his thumb injury & "Bang you head, Mental health will drive you mad" Frerotte was decent. Can't believe I just said "Ears" was decent but he was for a short period of time. I can still see him winning the Raiders game by diving in for the TD in my head. Someone help me please.

 

"ears" wasn't a great quarterback, but he was definitely a good manager. yes he made mistakes, but he's better than Lucas. I honestly have a HUGE appreciation for Fiedler because of Lucas.

 

Mentoring is overrated

When's the last time someone got mentored into being a good QB? The closest you can get is Aaron Rodgers? Too bad when all that drama was going down Brett Favre was accused of being the worst mentor ever!

Maybe Drew Brees and Philip Rivers. I'd rather have Gus Frerotte play screw the mentoring. Let the kid learn and the coaches coach him up. I don't want Henne learning to work the middle like a madman. I want to see some explosion!