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Tua is not the Problem

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, Nov 6, 2021.

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  1. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    Tua is reading defenses both pre-snap and post-snap. It is built into the Dolphins offense. You have to be able to do both to run this offense.

    Miami uses a ton of pre-snap motion and shifts. The use of motion and shifts provides information for pre-snap reads. That is one of the primary reasons they use motion. (In addition to preventing jamming receivers, gaining leverage on defenders, etc.).

    Post-snap, there are a number of things going on depending on the play. If it is an RPO, he is reading a defender to choose between run and pass. If it is a pass (RPO or not) he is reading the post-snap adjustments by the defense, up to and including (sometimes) the use of choice routes. Choice routes are routes where the receiver can pick from one of several options (in real time) depending on what the cover guy does. You cannot pick a spot pre-snap if the receiver doesn't even know which route he will run until he sees what the defender does. One example I've seen given is that the receiver is running a route and can break in, break out, or sit down depending on what the CB does.

    No decent QBs decides where they are throwing pre-snap with any regularity. There is just too much going on in a modern defense. Certainly there are some plays where Tua decides pre-snap where he is going. That is one of the things that can get him in trouble.

    It is clear from the tape that Tua is doing all of this. Every knowledgable person reviewing film sees it and explains it the same way. Either they are all lying or you are simply wrong.

    None of it goes against what Sherfield said.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2023
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  2. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    This issue could be why Tua always throws the ball into multiple defenders. He does it in just about every game. He often gets lucky and gets away with it.
     
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  3. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Again, with the ad hom attacks. You gotta stop, dude. I'm not in the least bit interested in reading your take, when your take is that if someone disagrees with your assessment, they're not knowledgeable. Tiny bit narcissistic.

    Again, Shurfield stated that Tua throws to a spot, regardless of where the receiver is. You have done nothing to show that is wrong, other than to state that "any knowledgeable person" could tell that just by watching the games. Yet, there are plenty of "knowledgeable" people who watch football who do not agree with you.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2023
  4. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    In order to throw with a lot of anticipation like tua does, he has to make up his mind quickly where he is going post snap. If the defense disguises coverage and starts dropping people into the spots over the middle where Tua usually likes to throw to and expects his recievers to be, then you are going to see several plays like we saw towards the end of the season where Tua is throwing into double, triple and sometimes quadrupale coverage over the middle. If Tua was really doing a lot of post snap reading he would not be throwing into triple and cuadruple coverage. That's the double edged sword of throwing with too much anticipation.
     
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  5. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    I did not attack you and the "knowledgable people" I was referring to was not me. I was referring to JT O'Sullivan and Kurt Warner.

    If you can find a knowledgable person who breaks down film and shows that Tua is not reading defense post-snap, I'd love to see it. Please provide a link.

    BTW, You have the quote wrong. He didn't say "regardless of where the receiver is". He said "Quarterback was dropping back and he was letting the ball go, like no matter if you was there or you weren't. It's just all timing and trust. ".

    The THERE he is referring is the spot. If the receiver gets knocked on his *** at the LOS, Tua is not throwing to the spot "no matter what" as has been claimed. He is also not throwing the spot if he reads post snap that the route is taken away by the defense. He moves on the the next read in that case. Then it is THAT receivers job to be in the right place and on time in their route.

    EVERY SINGLE ANTICIPATION THROW IS MADE REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THE RECEIVER IS THERE OR NOT. THAT IS WHAT MAKES IT AN ANTICIPATION THROW. THE QB CANNOT KNOW IF THE RECEIVER WILL GET THERE ON TIME. HE HAS TO TRUST THE RECEIVER.
     
  6. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. Defenses are going to sit middle and make Tua beat them on the outside. He just doesn't have the arm to beat people on the sidelines.
     
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  7. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    This is true. Defenses can begin taking cues and anticipate the anticipation. The offense will then adjust, again. It is certainly possible to fool Tua, just like any QB. IMO, the plays were there to be made against the 49ers. Tua just missed a ton of throws that game. The Chargers game is the one where the defensive scheme caused trouble. Against the Bills things were back clicking well. The first half against the Packers was utter offensive domination. I believe the concussion was the issue in the second half. You are free to believe what you want.

    The point is that playing QB in that system is f'n difficult. Tua was in his third year and his first year in the system. IMO, we should be encouraged by what we saw.
     
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  8. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    I disagree with this.
     
  9. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Yeah. I don't understand why people are just giving him a pass on this. Every throw by Tannehill was gobe over with a microscope by the same people, and if Tannehill EVER threw into double coverage or forced a throw, they were irate over his "rookie mistakes.”. Tua threw into triple and quadruple coverage several times, made poor panicked throws instead of throwing it away, etc etc I'm not saying this **** because I want to bag on Tua...it's just that these things are literal facts that we all saw, but these posters are acting like it never happened.
     
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  10. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    But you're ignoring reality.
    Tua does not have an NFL strong arm.
     
  11. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    I think the reason Tua throws with so much anticipation and devoloped that skill is precisely to make up for his lack of arm strength. Throwing to the outside with anticipation is going to be harder for him than throwing over the middle with anticipation just due to greater distances.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2023
  12. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    This is exactly right. Tua can throw to the outside, he just can't do it late and rely on arm strength alone. No arguments there. He also gets in trouble when he is late on deep throws, especially if his feet aren't right.

    Here is a highlight video from last season. There are 32 throws on the video. 15 are to the outside and 17 are inside. If Tua were unable to throw to the outside, there'd be very few examples, but instead, there are plenty. I'm sick of responding to hyperbole. (not your post).

     
  13. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    I simply disagreed with the statement that he cannot beat teams to the outside. I just posted a video that disproves that. I didn't claim he has a strong arm for an NFL QB.
     
  14. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    You are simply doing what the Tannehill haters used to do. Nobody ever claimed that Tua doesn't throw into coverage. We just realize that ALL QBs do it and as long as it doesn't become a pattern and it is offset by big time positive plays, it is nothing to worry about.

    One of the things Tua has to work on is his tendency to look off the safety, then assume it worked and throw the ball without checking. That was what cause one of the INTs against the Ravens. But, then he threw 6 TD passes so.....
     
  15. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    He can make the outside throws, he just has to throw it with a lot more anticipation than a stronger armed QB would, simply because it takes him longer to get the ball there.

    I think a lot of my and others criticism of Tua has to do with the lack of arm stength and durability. Those are real flaws in his game and as long as Tua defenders can recognize those flaws we would have a lot less arguments.

    That's not to say he cant be successfull, there have been other QBs who have been successful without having a strong arm (altough I dont think as weak as Tua's) it's just we all prefer to not have spent a 5th overall pick on a player with those limitations.

    It's like the difference between a breaking ball pitcher and a fastball pitcher in baseball. Sure there have been lots of succesfull breaking ball pitchers in history who didnt have a great fastball, but we would all prefer to have spent high draft capital on someone who had all the tools in his arsenal, and not be limited by lack of arm strength and durability.
     
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  16. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Resnor keeps adding to the Sherfield quote "regardless", when in fact he never said that word. But, WE HAVE AN AGENDA. He is literally adding words to a quote.
     
  17. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Draft position is irrelevant to evaluating Tua. It's relevant to evaluating Grier, not Tua. Only thing that should matter in evaluating Tua is performance after being drafted, not draft position.

    Regarding arm strength and durability, the vast majority of Tua defenders acknowledge both. The problem with Tua haters is they assume these weaknesses make it extremely unlikely Tua will succeed in the future even after Tua repeatedly disproved many of their past predictions.

    Prior to 2022 it was predicted Tua would never put up elite stats over a sustained period of time. He proved otherwise. It was predicted he would never be good at the deep ball. Proven wrong. It was predicted that Tua wouldn't be able to overcome adversity, such as a bad OL (like Herbert) or carry the team to a win when the rest of the team wasn't playing well. Definitely proven wrong. Even during the 2022 season it was predicted he wouldn't play well against good defenses in December in the cold in an away game. Proven wrong in that Buffalo game.

    Durability is a serious concern yes. But to still bring up arm strength after all that elite performance makes no sense. We already know he can play at a very high level with a weak arm! Other than durability, all that remains is demonstrating he can learn a more complex offense this offseason so it's not as easy to shut him down like happened at the end of last season. Right now, there's no evidence he can't learn this. To predict he can't.. well we know how a lot of predictions by Tua haters ended up last year.
     
  18. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    It's not even that it can't be late. He has to throw it earlier than other QBs would have to.
     
  19. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    This is exactly what I'm talking about. No matter what criticism is given, you have an explanation.

    So you clearly believe that Tua is an elite QB being held back by subpar teammates/coaching. He doesn't need to improve anything, he has zero limitations.

    Tua was **** through the first two or three games. He looked like the same QB from year 2. Then he had some crazy games, and I thought we had Marino again. Then he had the concussions and games where teams made him look like he didn't know what he was doing.

    Yet you act like he was a ****ing stud the entire season, and everything bad wasn't his fault.
     
  20. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    I mostly agree with you, although I probably don't think Tua's arm is as weak as you do. I also think his anticipation skills are elite and many of the strong armed QBs don't possess that skill. It is a trade off and the team must adapt the offense to the QB's skills.

    I think the QBs that possess Tua's elite skills and Josh Allen's elite skills are very very very rare.
     
  21. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    Dude... WHAT THE F**K?!?!?!?!

    You F'n just responded with this - "He doesn't need to improve anything, he has zero limitations."

    To a post that included this - "One of the things Tua has to work on is his tendency to look off the safety, then assume it worked and throw the ball without checking."
     
  22. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    Some other QBs, yes. I agree.
     
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  23. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    Hey Resnor.... I agree with this. See. I am objective.
     
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  24. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    This is a great analogy. There are a number of traits that make a great pitcher, velocity, placement, ball movement, ability to change speeds, etc. It is very rare to find a guy who is great in all those things. Throwing >100 mph with no ability to change speeds or vary placement will result in a crap ton of home runs. Throwing >100 mph with no ability to hit the strike zone is no good either.

    Many of the Tua detractors here seem to think that fastballs are all that matters and that the absence of a fastball guarantees failure and the presence of a fastball guarantees success. Both, of course, are BS.

    Regarding draft capital, there are many many examples of fastball throwing QBs that failed miserably.... It is extremely difficult to find players with all the tools. IMO, the tools Tua has are more rare than the big arms.
     
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  25. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    This is embarrassing…. Tua had 8 TDs and 2 INTs in the first three game IN A NEW OFFENSE.

    his passer ratings were 104.4, 124.1, and 123.8. His completion percentages were 69.7, 72.0, and 72.2. He had a 469 yard passing game and the team went 3-0.

    When the hell did an average game of 300+ yards, 70% completions, 2+ TDs, 117 passer rating, and 10 YPA become crap?

    extrapolated over a whole season, that is 5200 yards, 45 TDs, and 11 INTs, 117 passer rating and 10 YPA. Those are mvp numbers and you claim he was ****???

    You are trolling or tripping.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2023
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  26. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Y’all Tua non believes better edumacate yourselves

    The elite 11 vid after everything you said also illustrates the fastest release in the game right now, just as fast as the great #13..

    Fastest release in the gane

    Best anticipation accuracy in the game

    Most innately accurate Qb in the game

    Just stay healthy and he’s a franchise Qb
     
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  27. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Joe Montana had to throw early and with anticipation.

    Joe Montana and that offense required their receivers to run precise patterns with exact yards and depth built in because the ball was going to be there on time.

    Bill walsh says hi.
     
  28. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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  29. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It’s spelled like that on purpose

    Guess you’re not aware of that joke :)
     
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  30. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    Tua has proven that he can play at an extremely high level in this league. The only thing right now that is still in question is his durability issues. From about 10 weeks last season, Tua detractors were absolutely SILENT on this forum. He had a subpar game against the best defense in the league (San Fran) and a few of them came back on here with their agendas. He was bad against the Chargers, played well against Buffalo (but we lost), and then took a concussion against Green Bay and that was the season. He definitely left on a sour note to last year, but I personally have seen enough for us to build off of and keep going. If he keeps getting injured and missing games, then it'll be time to look elsewhere. As of right now, I think we have our guy.
     
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  31. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    People get so hung up on terms like "elite" or "bust", but in my opinion that's not really helpful. Tua is a very good quarterback with a very real concussion history. His worst games came after returning from the concussions- which may or may not be linked (personally I think they are, but I understand why others would argue the opposite). And I personally wouldn't say that everything "wasn't his fault", but at the same time if he wasn't 100% over the concussions and they chose to start him anyway, then it sure as heck was someone's fault that wasn't named Tua.

    I don't think the argument here is whether or not we can win with him, or even whether or not he's elite when he's playing well. Everyone knows that we can win a lot of games with him at the helm. The question is whether or not he can stay healthy and that's a question that none of us can answer.

    What I'm more interested in figuring out, if it can be figured out, is whether or not his two (possibly three) concussions were just a fluke, bad luck kind of thing, or if it's because he's just more prone to having head injuries for whatever reason. Only time will answer that question and it's something that we all have to wait on.

    All this arguing here, all the negativity on both sides of the equation, it doesn't do anything but divide all of us when we essentially believe the exact same thing. Tua's a stud when he's healthy...but can he stay healthy? We jut don't know.
     
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  32. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    I agree with your whole post, but I can assure you that there are more that a few that don't believe the statement above. Not by a long shot. I do but I've been arguing with 3 or 4 that don't.
     
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  33. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Yeah that's totally inaccurate. We don't believe the same thing. There is a fairly large contingent of fans here, possibly up to half that have posted in the last year, that do not think we can win with Tua as QB long term even if he stays healthy. Most aren't posting right now, but they do come out in force once Tua has a bad game.

    Their argument is that he is limited by his physical and mental abilities (even if he manages to start) to the point that defenses can figure him out and game plan against him; that the elite level play we witnessed was a fluke. How many times have we heard the argument that Tua 2022 is more likely a Foles type performance, not to be repeated again, or that what happened at the end of last season was more indicative of Tua's true ability — regression to an overall mean closer to Tua's stats over his entire 3 years as a starter?

    To be fair, the naysayers could end up being right. No one is good at QB evaluation, not even the pros. It's close to a crapshoot in the draft for precisely that reason (it's a bit better than a crapshoot though, as evidenced by 1st rounders on average doing better than late rounders). So who knows. That's why you need to wait and see. The only thing I get annoyed at in this debate is when naysayers claim to "know" Tua can't be a top level QB before we have large enough sample size.

    In any case, the divide is real. It's due to people valuing different traits in a QB.
     
  34. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    Steve Young then took over the same system and same receivers and did better than Montana with a weaker arm.
     
  35. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I mean, I've seen a few here that say Tua is garbage, but they say that about everything and anything. A few of the same folks also said Tyreek was a huge mistake- those are just trolls who like to complain. I wasn't counting them as real people, because they're just here to spread misery and create arguments over anything.

    Want to know a secret? Put them on ignore and you forget they're even here. I have a feeling I've missed a lot of the posts you're referring to, LoL.
     
  36. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    IMO, this is all true, especially the last sentence. I have no problem with people who believe his limitations will severely limit his long term success. I do have a problem with people claiming that last season’s success didn’t happen or isn’t due to Tua.

    i also have a problem with people using different criteria to grade Tua vs other QBs. There were claims in this thread that a short average time to throw is proof that Tua can’t play the way good QBs play. When asked what it means that Burrow, Brady, and Lawrence all had shorter time to throw than Tua last season, silence.

    Finally, I have a huge problem when people claim Tua can’t do something than he is on film doing, regularly (read defenses post-snap, beat teams on the outside, throw deep, etc, etc).

    People can have whatever opinion of Tua that they want, but they should support it with facts.
     
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  37. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    It's really just another way a defense can attack. Defenses want Tua to throw to the outside because his arm doesn't play well in that 10-20 yard range on the outside. Tua needs to always roll and throw on his arm side, because he doesn't have the arm strength to throw against it. No one thing holds Tua back, but they all start to add up. Just not that exciting a package.
     
  38. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    BECAUSE OF ONE ****ING GAME.

    ****. This is the **** I'm talking about. The Ravens game is an ANOMALY, if ever there existed an anomaly, and you use one effing game to make it all look epic.

    It's ****ing disingenuous, and it's exactly why you aren't being objective. I don't even dislike Tua...but the asinine arguments you guys use to defend him are tiresome.

    And not only that...Tua was absolute ****ing dog **** for 3 1/2 quarters that game.
     
  39. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Let's look at it this way, Tua has 2 tds in 11 quarters of play in that 3 game stretch.

    What a ****ing stud.
     
  40. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Resnor, you’re looking at this from the wrong perspective. The Dolphins were implementing a completely new offense. There’s going to be those slow starts but the Dolphins nonetheless won against the Patriots.

    In the game against Baltimore, the Dolphins were down 28-7 at the half, and if memory serves me correctly, 35-7 in the 3rd. We were ALL cussing the Dolphins out. But then everything started to click. Tua was on FIRE, came back from an insurmountable deficit and beat the Ravens…in Baltimore no less.

    His level of play continues the following week against the Bills in Miami, pulling out a win that no one expected Miami to win.

    The fact that Miami, and Tua for that matter was able to go 3-0 with a rookie head coach, a brutal first 3 game stretch and one of those victories from a huge deficit in itself should be a testament to just how good Tua really is.

    Furthermore, the fact Miami had to put up POINTS on the road because our road defense was allowing 28 points per game further demonstrates Tua’s ability to play high level quarterback when called upon to carry the team to victory.
     
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