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Tua is not the Problem

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, Nov 6, 2021.

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  1. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    LOL @ no physical limitations. He is less accurate, has less arm talent, has a slower release, etc, etc.

    Tua thoroughly outplayed Herbert last season.
     
  2. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    LOL, less arm Talent? GTFO, Herbert probably has the best arm talent in the league, he makes throws that make even Mahomes go wow.
     
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  3. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    You are confusing arm strength with arm talent.

    I think we are done. Good debate. We will see what happens.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2023
  4. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Offseason training’s been good,” Tagovailoa said Monday, via David Furones of the South Florida Sun-Sentinel. “Been working on strength in many areas and been chipping away at things that I felt like I needed to work on to get to where I feel I can get to in the later parts of the season.”
     
  5. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Bigger stronger faster
     
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  6. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    He’s a Hawaiian Steve Austin. :up:
     
  7. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    Arm strength is an unambiguous concept. How fast can you throw the ball.
    Arm talent on the other hand is a very vague concept with no fixed meaning. People use to include a mix of some or all of the below:
    Arm strength
    Accuracy
    Ability to throw off base
    Release speed
    Ability to vary velocity as needed
    Ability to vary arm angle as needed
    Ability to throw with shortened throwing machine (ie ‘flick of the wrist’ throws)
    Anticipation/throwing to where the receiver will be

    Until you and hitman8 agree what ‘arm talent’ is and how to measure it you aren’t going to make much progress.
     
  8. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    Like they were making progress on any of this????
     
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  9. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    I would add "Ability to layer the ball as needed"

    Regardless of exactly what you include, it is more that just arm strength. There are plenty of guys who could throw the ball a mile and through walls but did not have the arm talent to succeed in the NFL. It is very much like a pitcher. Throwing a 105 mph fastball is great but, can you hit spots, vary the speed, make the ball move, throw other pitches, etc, etc.

    I am not anticipating making progress, that is why I said that I thought we were done.
     
  10. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Yes all those things count as arm talent, and while arm strength is not the only thing, it is certainly one of the main attributes a QB should have in order to label them as having great arm talent. Historically great arm strength has been a prerequisite to recieving that label. I would also say the ability to make every throw even in tough situations, an ability which Tua does not have.
     
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  11. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    While arm strength is not the only thing required in order to have great arm talent, it is one of the main attributes you look for. Historically arm strength has always been a major part or the arm talent equation. You are just trying to exclude that from the definition so you can put that label on Tua. Tua is an accurate passer, but he does not have great arm talent.
     
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  12. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    Do you think Steve Young had “great arm talent”?
    Why or why not?
     
  13. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    Another point on which we can disagree. I did not exclude arm strength. It was included in the list I responded to. I merely added one more thing. I also said that it is "more than just arm strength".

    I do appreciate your continued admission of Tua's strengths. Basically every QB possesses all of the attributes to varying degrees, or they wouldn't be in the NFL. I happen to think that Tua's blend of attributes makes for a more effective passer than Herbert's does. You are free, of course, to have the opposite opinion.

    And, BTW, those strengths will change over time, for both QBs. I acknowledge that Tua will not develop Herbert's arm strength and it is possible that Herbert will meet or exceed Tua in enough of the other attributes. At that point, he will be the better passer and it will likely show up on the field. Will that happen? Who knows.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2023
  14. mooseguts

    mooseguts Well-Known Member

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    The year is 2098 2nd year Dolphins QB Abner Vonshooterhoose is getting ready to beat the sophomore slump. Dolphin fans debate furiously on if he has the goods, some say Tom Brady the 3rd is superior. The war rages on. I’ll see you guys in hell.
     
  15. mooseguts

    mooseguts Well-Known Member

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    I don’t get the too short angle. If Tom Brady was 6’1 are we saying it changes his career success ? Does being 3 inches shorter prevent him from winning 7 super bowls?
     
  16. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    No, steve young did not have great arm talent. He was a great QB with great athleticism, football IQ, and an accurate passer, but he did not have a strong arm or great arm talent.
     
  17. VManis

    VManis Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Trent Dilfer on the importance of arm strength which he calls power. Incidentally this is from an interview prior to the 2018 draft so he is not talking about Tua but rather in generalities.

     
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  18. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    Nor did Chad Pennington or Alex Smith.
     
  19. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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  20. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Wait wait wait wait…Herbert outplayed Tua? Let’s take a look at this ridiculous statement for a second.

    First off, and let’s just be clear here…Herbert and Tua don’t play against EACH OTHER. They play against the opposing defenses…and our defense last season sucked to the highest level of sucktivity!! They sucked so badly that my old high school football quarterback could have looked good against them.

    Did we forget the Dolphins road defense last season ranked near the bottom on the league in points allowed, yards allowed, passer rating, 3rd down conversions, etc? If Herbert couldn’t light up the scoreboard against a defense THAT BAD, then he indeed sucks!

    On the flip side of that coin, the Chargers defense had a top 10 defense. If your defense is that good then a quarterback is going to struggle, especially when you’re playing the opposing team in thei home stadium, on the west coast and a 2nd road game in a row. That’s SUPPOSED to happen.

    Herbert didn’t outplay Tua…the Chargers defense did what the Dolphins defense couldn’t…shut down the opposing quarterback
     
  21. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Chargers defense was #21 in points allowed and #14 in passer rating allowed. They weren't that good either. Though not as bad as the Dolphins, who were #24 in points allowed and #27 in passer rating allowed.
     
  22. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    Great point. It's a point I tried to make a few pages back but it quickly was buried in the back and forth.

     
  23. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Are some of you Tuanonners again, so pathetically knocking on Herbert....again... in a futile attempt to prop up Tua and create some kind of fantasy that Tua is anywhere near as good as Herbert or ever will be? You guys are high. Let it go. Set your sights a little lower. But no, keep coming up with and regurgitating the same useless, insane and inane stats to prove some asinine point. You would think that the last game against Herbert would have shut you all up and put this idiotic point to bed, but I guess not. You want some telling stats? Look at Tua's stat line for that game. I think at one point, Tua was 3 for 17. Wt-? ....and that was with the Chargers missing something like 6 starters on D. No Bosa. No James. You get it? They were playing back ups and they did that to Tua.

    Hey. 94 Tds to 52 Tds. There! There's a bleeping stat for you.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2023
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  24. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    Stats:
    105.5 passer rating vs 93.2
    8.9 YPA vs 6.8 YPA
    6.3 TD% vs 3.6 TD%
    68.8 QBR vs 58.2 QBR

    Here is a weighted average ranking across several approach from PFF:
    upload_2023-4-12_14-45-15.png
     
  25. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    Put on lbs? Weren't you the guy that wanted Tua to run more? Probably needs to go the opposite way if that's the plan.
     
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  26. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    That's also a good point. Now that you mention it, I remember wondering why Miami couldn't move the ball with how many starters were missing on the Charger's defense.

    I'm a Tua moderate, so I swing both ways...lol.
     
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  27. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    lol.. Herbert hasn't done squat. He choked in the playoffs, and he put up ratings of 98.3, 97.7 and 93.2 in 3 years when the league averages were 93.6, 90.8 and 89.1, which means he's been 4.7, 6.9 and 4.1 passer rating points above average in his 3 years. That's when the standard deviation in passer rating per year is around 11ish. So Herbert is solidly above average but nowhere near elite statistically. Most worrisome is he simply hasn't shown any improvement since his rookie year. Herbert isn't the answer dude. Whatever you say about Tua, Herbert isn't the answer, and Chargers fans are going to see that as the years go by: no SB like Rivers.

    The ONLY thing Herbert has on Tua performance-wise is durability, which is a big thing, but that's it. At least Tua had one elite year. Like I said, 2023 can't happen soon enough, not just for further evaluation of Tua but also your boy Herbert.
     
  28. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    It's funny you are certain Herbert isn't the answer, but lose your mind when people say Tua isn't the answer. The irony is great.
     
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  29. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    It's even funnier you can't stop misrepresenting other people's views. Like you've been doing that for much of this thread. I've always said we need more sample size. So many times that it doesn't need repeating. That's different from you when specifically asked whether you had any doubt that you said no. Of course we'll revisit predictions as time goes on, but unlike you I don't insist on there being no uncertainty when specifically asked about it.
     
  30. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    My personal opinion has no doubts. That doesn't mean there's no uncertainty. You struggle with understanding this nuance.

    Regardless, you have stated in this thread that you are pissed that people speak about Tua in absolutes. Then proceed to speak about Herbert in an absolute. It's cool if you don't see your own hypocrisy.
     
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  31. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    There is no nuance. You're once again trying to wiggle out of a position you took even after explicitly being asked to clarify it. You've done that too repeatedly in this thread. Also, you lack reading comprehension. Read my post again. Last sentence I talk about further evaluation of both Tua and Herbert. That's not a position someone takes if there is no uncertainty. What IS certain is your penchant for misrepresenting others' viewpoints.
     
  32. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    There's a plethora of nuance.

    Your final sentence doesn't reverse these statements. Talk about trying to wiggle out of a position. Fraud.

    "Herbert isn't the answer dude. Whatever you say about Tua, Herbert isn't the answer, and Chargers fans are going to see that as the years go by: no SB like Rivers."
     
  33. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Ah yes.. more personal insults. I once said you're the worst poster right now on this site and I stand by that. I just pointed you to this:
    "Like I said, 2023 can't happen soon enough, not just for further evaluation of Tua but also your boy Herbert."

    How does a person suggest we need more evaluation of Tua and Herbert if there is no uncertainty? Like I said, lack of reading comprehension.
     
  34. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    Because sentences like "Herbert isn't the answer" said TWICE has meaning. If your opinion was let's wait for more data, then you should have said "We need more data to show Herbert isn't the answer." When you say a definitive statement twice without a qualifier, then that's your definitive statement. Which again is fine, but it's extremely hypocritical to complain about people who don't believe in Tua for the same thing.

    Na man. You win that crown. So disingenuous and hypocritical.
     
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  35. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    you cant tell with any of these videos what his trainers strategy is, they could be strength training hard and then when camp starts they tighten up the diet to shred the extra weight.

    its one of the two things ive been critical of him so when camp starts and I'll go for a week ill know exactly where he's at as far as his body fat ratio is.
     
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  36. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    You're deliberately taking a few phrases out of context. Even in the original post I made it clear we need more data. I've also stated we need more data numerous times in the past, probably more than anyone else here. And I made sure to clarify my stance when asked. You just can't accept that because it means there's no equivalence between your insistence you can't be wrong and my lack thereof. Descriptions like "disingenuous and hypocritical" accurately describe you in this case, not me. Just look at what you started again.
     
  37. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    You said "Herbert isn't the answer" TWICE with no qualifier, and then stated the FUTURE with "and Chargers fans are going to see that as the years go by." Taken out of context? LOL. Jesus man. At least own it.
     
  38. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    BS. You and your useless stats prove squat. Are you actually using your useless stats with me?? No. This year has, without a doubt, proven you and your useless stats to be insane. Blah, blah, blah, wt- did you just babble? ...more useless bogus stats. Get a grip , dude.
     
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  39. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    And I said we need more data (2023) for further evaluation later in the post. One generally doesn't provide all possible context in one sentence. The context is clear in the entire post, and also my posting history.

    Either way, you're not acknowledging the most important point here: you challenged me on writing something that to you looked like certainty (because you didn't read the entire post) and I made it clear I could be wrong. That is exactly the opposite of what you did. Someone asked you to clarify your stance and you insisted you could not be wrong. THAT is the difference. NO equivalence.
     
  40. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    I see.. so using data from the entire season is a more useless stat than your cherry picked stat from one game. You've always been against stats, and it's easy to see why. Proper statistical analysis doesn't allow you to cherry pick like that (i.e., sample size is taken into account in any statistical test). We'll see who ends up being right: stats or your cherry picking.
     
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