Tua is not the Problem

Ummm, ok?

https://www.draftsharks.com/fantasy/injury-history/joe-burrow/10482

 

Do honestly believe your own lies? It's a great tactic on your part. "Man, Tua doesn't need any more concussions, really praying for lil guy." Nah dude...It's total BS and you know in the depths of your soul the truth. You're rooting for this to happen just so you can be right in your world about him not being able to make it in this league. I'm not going to keep recycling this disingenuous angle that you're trying to play. I mean phoney isn't a strong enough adjective to to use on your performative act of sudden kindness towards Tua. It's BS all day and I'm willing to bet a million dollars that YOU will be one of the first ones celebrating (albeit in a conniving, guileful way) on here the minute he gets tuned up again in a game. "Poor lil guy, hope he's alright, he should retire now."

I mean imagine if you will...Being so miserable and so dug in about not wanting to be wrong that you're going to root against players on the team that you claim to have unshakeable support for.

 

You are literally making up quotes and then arguing against those quotes you made up. You OK?

Some of you guys are like you never say anything nice about Tua. And then I say I think Tua is a good guy. And now I get, "you are lying!" It's comical.

 

Your genuine concern for Tua’s personal well being is noted, and I’m sure that was your motive in posting this, not some desire to wina an argument on the internet.

Some comments on this.
1) Tua made his comments in the context of “Will you play football again”, not “What are your risks of CTE”. So he was giving the short simplified answer.
2) The people who gave Tua advice are not quoted and haven’t commented publicly as far as I know. The medical profession has moved on from glossing over trivial or unlikely complications to providing full and detailed explanation of all the risks. This was due to a couple of doctors getting sued into oblivion in the 70s and 80s.
3) Considering Tua’s profession and that most insurance policies for professional indemnity carry a limit on how much the insurer will cover (standard was $5M or $10M back when I was involved in the industry) any doctor advising Tua will risk losing their shirt if Tua can prove negligence on their part.
4) I highly doubt that Tua has been given a “It’s all fine because you’re a QB” line of advice.
5) The guy making an issue of it on Twitter is an advocate against concussions in football, and has set up an organization to fight against concussions. Hardly an unbiased source.

 

This is one giant strawman argument, with some other logical fallacies tossed in for good measure.

 

Just a comment on #5, while it may be true that he isn't unbiased, I would argue that none of the parties involved are unbiased.

One group is trying to bring awareness to concussions and CTE, and one side wants to continue making money. Lol

 

1. Doesn't really matter the context. He's still saying he doesn't need to worry about CTE and that's more geared towards linebackers and lineman. No context makes that OK. They may be at higher risk, but it's still something he should be worried about especially with his history.
2. Do you realize how many doctors still get sued for malpractice?
3. Again, do you realize how many doctors still get sued for malpractice? Tua can't sue for loss of earnings because he didn't lose any earnings. If he had decided to retire, I think there's a good chance we would have seen a lawsuit.
4. No. But they certainly could have downplayed the risks. These are some of the same doctors that didn't know Tua sustained a concussion in the Packers game, where the coaches recognized symptoms BEFORE the doctors. Some of the same doctors that blamed his back after the Buffalo wobble. A doctor was fired and new protocols put in place as a result. Concussions aren't an exact science.
5. Ermmmm everyone should be against concussions in football. Lack of awareness is a big problem. Are you for concussions in football? Are you for players not knowing the life long risks? Prevention measures?

 

It's interesting how people in that video kept saying how strong his arm was. I've never thought he hard a strong arm. Weird

 

The context does matter, and in this case Tua was giving a short summary answer to a related but different question than what the twitter thread is based on.

Re doctors getting sued. I worked in personal injury insurance law for the best part of 20 years, but left the field about 15 years ago. I’m not up to date on the minutiae of the current state of the law, but AFAIK there’s been no paradigm altering changes since I left.
It’s very tough to successfully sue a doctor, plenty of people try but few get a payout. There are a number of reasons for this.
1) Doctors, generally, are very aware of their legal risks and work hard to ensure that their practices are up to date and within current accepted methodology.
2) It’s tough to find credible expert witnesses willing to impeach another doctor.
3) It’s easy to find a credible expert witness willing to support another doctor.
4) Doctors generally have personal insurance, not insurance issued by a company such as a hospital. Insurers underwriting individual doctors have an incentive to fight tooth and nail, because it’s what their clients want.. Doctors will rapidly slide away from insurers that adopt a more pragmatic attitude of its being cheaper to pay off bogus claims than to fight them.

Plaintiffs who beat doctors get big payouts get into the news because the doctor at fault usually did something egregious, there is a very sympathetic plaintiff and big damages. This makes it seem like suing doctors is a good scheme for getting rich quick, when the opposite is true.

Re concussions in football. Your response is a non sequitur. Because I point out the bias and financial interest, and desire to piggyback on an item in the news to create publicity an advocate has does not infer anything about my opinion on the issue itself. Just don’t try to represent a biased source working off incomplete information as some kind of font of unbiased informed opinion.

 

Has anyone done any study on ball velocity of different QBs? It would be nice to get some actual numbers rather than relying on subjective descriptors like wounded duck, noodle arm, on a rope or cannon. What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen wounded duck? Is it aEuropean wounded duck or an African wounded duck?

 

This is totally just your interpretation. He could have been short and also stated he's at risk, or stated it a different way. He didn't.

The NFL, the teams, and the doctors they employ have no bias or financial interest? Get a grip. One side is in the business of protecting people's health and the other is on the side of making money off of them. I know what side I'm on.

 

Let me summarize to the haters

Tua is by far and away better and more efficient than any other Qb when the ball traveled more than 5 yards downfield

It’s not close, he’s all by himself, I’ll reiterate, common theory of Qb’ing would tell you the farther you throw the ball downfield the less efficient you will become, he’s in first place with that efficiency and it’s not close

show some respect

Anticipation accuracy and quick release takes you to that elite + level

 

Yeah but we'll still have our hands full with the Monsters. Lol

 

I know RG, big bad monsters they are lol

 

Now see, this is where I want to play devil's advocate. That stat could also indicate receivers wide open downfield leading to easier completions, correct?

I'm just saying, this is a perfect example of the entire discussion. One stat that one side can say means X, and the other side can argue it means Y.

 

Could it? yes Did it? no

According to the NFL's Next Gen Stats

Hill was 35th in average separation.
Waddle is so far down, I didn't feel like counting that far.

 

Instead of scrutinizing everything why don't we forget X, forget Y, and go with Z, which is , we have the receivers AND we have the QB to win playoff games going forward. Unless of course that doesnt fit the overall motive around here.

 

When you are this far and above and beyond the rest of the qbs in football then you have to credit the qbs abilities to get the ball quickly and accurately downfield.. this is caused by quickness of set up, fastest release in the game, and elite innate accuracy and anticipation

Like I keep saying it takes more Qb talent to facilitate great receivers than great receivers making average qbs look better.

 

But do you see how providing context for the stat, as you just did here, can prevent arguing?

 

I'm just pointing out how the discussion can turn into an argument very quickly, and this goes all the way back to the great Tanne Debate.

 

I'm not disagreeing, simply pointing out, posting a stat without context isn't the most helpful.

 

With all the stats, charts, graphs, videos, quotes we have provided, resnor thinks we have been posting out of context the whole time. Amazing.

 

I have posted a crap ton of all of that.....

 

Did you notice that the poster who challenged the passing stats with the idea that the receivers were more open provided absolutely no data to support such a claim?

 

He did, he "liked" the post.

 

But, it takes him until now to say "hey, see how easy that was all you had to do was post context", like you haven't been doing that all year.

 

In this particular case the discussion turned into an argument when you decided to downplay and dismiss Tuas numbers and put the credit directly on the shoulders of his receiver's.
The receiver's played great with Tua, Tua played great with the receiver's. They complimented each others skill set effectively, thee end.
With that combination I'm confident in the offense going forward.
All your nitpicking ,finger pointing, refusal to give credit where it's due etc...is very telling.

 

He was giving an alternate to the statement being made.

I asked you months ago for your evidence that Tua doesn't throw into triple/quadruple coverage more than other QBs.

Shrug

 

Where have I ever stated that it was definitively not Tua? All I've done is show how the stats can be used multiple ways. I've been consistent for YEARS, actually for decades, that state are deceptive add need context and clarification.

You are free to think whatever you want about me, but just so you know, you're wrong.

 

You made the claim that he throws into triple/quadruple coverage "quite often". It is up to you to back that up.

I backed up my claim with Tua's INT % (which is low). Now you'd have to show that Tua throws into triple/quadruple coverage "quite often" but somehow doesn't get INTs.

 

He questioned the numbers without providing numbers. And, those numbers (receiver separation) are readily available.

 

The ridiculous thing is that there are multiple sets of numbers (passer rating, YPA, EPA/att, QBR, PFF ranking) from multiple unbiased sources (nfl next gen stats, ESPN, PFF) that all point to a highly efficient QB playing in a dynamic, pass heavy offense. Those numbers have been discussed ad nauseam and screen shots have been posted, videos have been posted, videos have been transcribed, etc, etc, etc.

The anti-Tua arguments haven't been provided with nearly the same amount of the supporting evidence.

 

I'm wrong ?
You mean you gave Tua credit for his great numbers ? When ?
Or, did you try and drive the point home that his receiver's carried him?
You're fine with Tua going forward? Really ?
Or, would you rather we had a different QB ( any QB for that matter), since our receiver's can carry an average at best QB ?
Would you rather we had a QB that couldn't put up great stats ( there's that word again) with our great receivers?
If I'm wrong stating any of these things tell me where.

I'm skeptical of your Dolphin devotion as it is.

 

Are you going to insist on the use of the word "definitively"? If not, then yes you've been consistently arguing it is NOT Tua, and that Tua's great offensive stats were due to Hill and Waddle.

Just a small sample of your arguments:
https://thephins.com/threads/tua-is-not-the-problem.96818/page-122#post-3536674

And when I said: "It's obviously a team effort. What's important is that there's no justifiable argument saying Tua wasn't a key part of it. I mean he's the QB!".. this is what you replied:
https://thephins.com/threads/tua-is-not-the-problem.96818/page-125#post-3538155

So yes you've been consistent in your position that it is NOT Tua, even if you never said it's impossible Tua could have played a role.

 

Does he not know there is a search feature on the forum?

 

A lot of "eye test" guys here.

 

another non sequitur. Just because I pointed out that a a neuroscientist (i.e. a Ph.D. NOT a medical doctor) has a bias in his comments does not infer or imply that I believe anyone else, let alone a team doctor, is unbiased. Please stop arguing with your imagination. If you are going to quote me in a post I would be grateful if you could respond to the words I actually wrote.

I will take the opinion of a doctor who has examined and interviewed Tua over the opinion of someone who is responding to one sentence cut from the middle of a from a newspaper article regardless of their particular bias.

 

We've discussed this before, those stats are relative and hard to apply to reality. If they are measured at the time the ball gets there it could be the quarterback threw a slow floater or underthrows allowing the defender to close the gap before the receiver caught it (which happened a lot with Tua). If they measure at the time the ball is let go it could show short separation if the quarterback is throwing with a lot of anticipation before the receiver makes their cut and accelerates to separate (which also happened a lot with Tua). That stat is deceiving and hard to standardize/quantify to reflect reality.

Tua throws with both lots of anticipation, and he also throws low velocity-high trajectory balls which means both examples of why these stats could be deceiving apply to him.

Another reason why I don't just blindly look at stats and ignore what my eyes tell me.