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Ginn Criticized for Evasiveness

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by njfinfan, Oct 9, 2008.

  1. Dannyg28

    Dannyg28 Say hi to the rings

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    Exhibit A: LT, greatest defensive player ever, doesn't know very much about football.
     
  2. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    I didn't assume he would fumble, I said what if?

    Truth is, Bess DID fumble, and no one really says a peep about it on here, but they are lambasting Ginn for his mistake. I was just wondering if there would be no peep if Ginn fumbled.
     
  3. cnc66

    cnc66 wiley veteran, bad spelur Luxury Box

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    Pete I'm pretty sure Ted DID fumble.. it went out of bounds... I "think" it was the SD game.. I watched them both yesterday and may be con.. more confused than usual.
     
  4. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    It was the NE game Ginn fumbled Marty. Actually it was an offsides on the play so it wouldnt have mattered even if we lost possesion.
     
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  5. mbmonk

    mbmonk I have no clue

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    EDIT: Beaten ^^
     
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  6. cnc66

    cnc66 wiley veteran, bad spelur Luxury Box

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    It was the one I watched last.. go figure.. thanks men.
     
  7. fins4o8

    fins4o8 Mac FTW!

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    Bess should of been lashed at just like Ginn because if it wasn't for our D, that fumble could of been costly. maybe just maybe, Bess has been a little more productive so far hence no lashing but he still should of been lashed at nevertheless.
     
  8. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    Ginn:
    15 for 130 (8.7ypc, long of 18)

    Bess:
    7 for 50 (7.1 ypc, long of 24)

    :confused2:

    (with similar return chances, I bet Ginn would have a better avg too certainly on KR at least)
     
  9. mbmonk

    mbmonk I have no clue

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    Well now that I think about it Ginn did 'fumble'/didn't catch that second punt.

    Ginn gets lashed out on because of his productivity. That is why everyone gets lashed out at. If Ginn was producing like Brown then he would be getting a pass like Brown is. But Ginn hasn't been doing that yet this year. Him not having the chance to produce on special teams I think makes him even more of a target. Last year he was returning kicks and punts and giving us value there. This year he has to earn his stripes soley as a receiver ( for now ). Until they put him back there to return kicks consistently. Oh.. and people didn't like him to start with .. the whole 'Ginn family' line of jokes :).
     
  10. mbmonk

    mbmonk I have no clue

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    Now do a yardage / Salary calculation :).

    I think Bess is winning the yard/pay ratio battle.

    Not that I care either way. I am glad we have both guys.
     
  11. Kanye West

    Kanye West 'Parcells' Guy

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    Well we are talking a lot more about Ted Ginn Jr because he was our 9th overall draft pick and Davon Bess was a walk on and we are not spending big money on him yet.
     
  12. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He has? Other than returning more kicks, and slightly better punt return stats, he hasn't done too much in the season.
     
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  13. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    We all know about, but hte original assertion was production, not value of production ;)
     
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  14. The Aqua Crush

    The Aqua Crush New Member

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    Don't underestimate how valuable him catching the balls he's supposed to catch have been. Keeps drives alive, keeps our rb's involved on third downs. Yes Bess has not been huge on TD's or scoring or huge wr catching yards, but he has been consistent and kept drives going
     
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  15. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    No offense to Bess at returning kicks, but the guy reminds me of Charlie Rogers back there.

    Im not even worried about punts because Teddy has looked horrible on those lately, but I wouldnt be surprised if Ginn is back on Kickoffs before long.
     
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  16. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    Ginn has more catches, more yards, a better average, and and the same number of drops.

    Again. :confused2:
     
  17. fins4o8

    fins4o8 Mac FTW!

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    Miami Dolphins Stats

    Rushing:
    Davone Bess 1 13 13.0 13 0
    Ted Ginn Jr. 1 2 2.0 2 0

    receiving:
    Ted Ginn Jr. 15 130 8.7 18 0
    Davone Bess 7 50 7.1 24 0

    PR:
    Davone Bess 5 3 11.2 25 0
    Ted Ginn Jr. 4 0 6.0 11 0

    KR:
    Davone Bess 10 198 19.8 28 0

    those are their stats. I would give receiving to ginn but PR/KR to Bess. Of course, Ginn hasn't had many opportunities as Bess in the Return Game due to the FO not giving him chances, but you have to factor in when he has been in. He has been playing scared on PR.

    While both players haven't been spectacular on PR, I think Ginn makes a better KR than Bess. FO should let Ginn play on KR cause it will allow him to hit top speed faster compared to him on PR. We can't risk Ginn continuing to play scared on PR. Let him build his confidence on KR then let him do PR once he gets more experience in KR.

    Thing I don't get is he was very good in the return game in college. How come all of the sudden he is scared ****less now. Is it because he was a man amongst boys in college and now he's playing with real men that are fast and can pack a wallop when they hit you?
     
  18. Agua

    Agua Reality: Try It!

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    I expect more out of Ginn because of his lofty draft status, vis a' vis, Devonne Bess.
     
  19. Kanye West

    Kanye West 'Parcells' Guy

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    Ted Ginn Jr it is time to step up and prove your self to your team mates.
     
  20. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He wasn't scared last year. It's repitions, as I think CK pointed out. They didn't give him any this year. A QB gets rusty after a few months of not throwing/practicing etc. And they've been throwing their whole life.

    The NFL didn't get faster or stronger from last year did it? And he knocked 3 into the end zone, two called back. You don't give a guy reps, then expect him to do it in the game, bad things happen.

    it's a stupid move on the part of the coaches. Reps reps reps. Coach wasn't happy with what Ronnie was doing last year, they gave him reps on returns. Reps reps reps. Its why a 6th degree black belt still practices basic white belt moves.
     
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  21. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    I think Ginn lacks physicality. Whether he's scared or not, I'm not sure but I think its clear he lacks the physicality. For example, in the Jets game on the last play, Ginn ran his route and was bumped at the line. Once he was bumped, his route when on the white of the out of bounds. Then when he got to the endzone, he didn't really have a chance at it because of a poor throw but was boxed out by Darelle Revis. He tried to fight for position and couldn't do anything because, imo, he isn't strong enough in his upper and lower body.

    I think the fact that he hasn't seen much time in the return game makes him hesitate (i.e. him letting the balls bounce and then pick it up, muffing the punt). He spent time doing it in college like you said and spent time doing it last year but this year, the management tried to limit his returns with the hope that Bess or Foster could do the job. Eventually, Foster didn't make the team and Bess is indeed struggling. I think the management wants to develop Ginn first at the Wide Receiver spot and then work him into return duties. Theirs a positive and a negative in that idea. The positive is that Ginn is making some plays in the pass game. He's our second leading receiver at the moment. The negative in all of this is that its hampering our field position because we don't have the best guy returning kicks out there. I'm not against Sparano if the case is that they want to develop Ginn at the WR spot but what you can't forget is that when Sparano was asked in the off-season about using players in certain positions, he said we would use the player that fits best at the spot. In this case, Ginn is the best fit for returning kicks and he's not doing that.
     
  22. The Aqua Crush

    The Aqua Crush New Member

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    Again stiches read my post. i didn't go out and say BEss is WAY better than Ginn. All i said is Bess's WR duties have been alright, and that he is catching what he's supposed to be, which our WR in years past have been guilty of not doing, leading us to long 3rd downs. So yes Bess doesn't have great stat lines, but he has made catches he's suppose to make, there is value there. That didn't undermine Ginn or his production to date.

    But if you must go there...yes ginn does have "Slightly more catches, yards and better average, same drops" very close but better.

    Oh by the way, he's making several millions more and is expected to be a #1 receiver, bess was undrafted FA making a FRACTION of what Ginn is making. For the money difference and the actual prodcution difference. Bess seems like overall better value YTD, that of course is my opion through 5 weeks.
     
  23. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    I never said slightly, and twice as much in yards and catches (save for ypc) is not close.

    And I didn't say Bess hasn't been ok at WR. But Ginn has been better, and just like Bess he's caught all the passes he supposed to, and helped stop 3rd and longs.
     
  24. Dannyg28

    Dannyg28 Say hi to the rings

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    Ginn has double Bess' production, not sure how that is close.
     
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  25. k-bayfinfan

    k-bayfinfan Bikini Inspector

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    He does it on a consistent basis, and the last time I checked Ted Ginn Jr. plays tackle football not 2 hand touch!
     
  26. NJFINSFAN1

    NJFINSFAN1 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Bess is a walk on FA who should not be playing but earned playing time. Ginn is a top 10 pick that has struggled getting onto the field.

    Its a big difference. What we need to see is Ginn step it up, he has not played like a number one pick.

    I also don't want to hear I don't like Ginn, that is bull, he is a Fin and I want him to do well, but he has not yet earned my praise. But just because he is a # 1 pick I'm not going to go goo goo over him. Same with Jason Allen. They both need to pick it up, because if they don't, P.I.S. INC (Parcells, Ireland, Sparano) will not keep them around next year.
     
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  27. Crappy Tipper

    Crappy Tipper AKA Hero13

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    Considering he's a full year ahead in the pro game he certainly should be outdistancing Bess by a mile.

    Going out of bounds untouched is a willful act - a drop or a fumble is not. Fasano & Bess did not intend the actions they made as potentially harmful as they could have been.
     
  28. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Exactly. And the point of the offense? NOT TO GET TACKLED.

    He did his job. :wink2:
     
  29. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    After watching the replay several times, Ginn looked pretty damn physical on the HUGE 3rd down grab late against SD. He fought off a pretty hard bump (Cromartie?) at the line and then made a tough catch with the DB draped all over him.

    Maybe he's picking it up a bit. He still has a long way to go, but that play was a nice glimpse.
     
  30. NJFINSFAN1

    NJFINSFAN1 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I agree, The CB was holding him and he fought it off to get into the route and than make a nice catch, it was great to see. He just needs to be like that more often.
     
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  31. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    You may be right. I didn't see the second half so I missed it. I hope he's improving his physical play. Thanks.
     
  32. dolpns13

    dolpns13 Chest Rockwell is my hero

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    he should have known better, I mean its not as big a deal as learning to run a route, or getting separation, its simply keep the clock running. Seems like common sense. At the very minimum, just drop to the ground, dont run out of bounds. Hope he learned
     
  33. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    well, Ginn has been improving as the season goes along...which is an excellent sign.

    I still would love to see some shots down field though. Please, just throw one up and see if he can make a play...I'm begging you Henning. I'm not gonna judge Ginn until I see the offense make an attempt to get him the ball deep. Like I said, even if he's covered, after that huge catch he made against San Diego I am confident in his abilities to go out and be aggressive. JUST. GIVE IT. A SHOT.
     
  34. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Pennington? Throw it up? Please no. Maybe with Chris Chambers. Not with this bunch. 15-20 is allI want to see him "throw it up"
     
  35. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    why not? I've seen Pennington look Ginn's way on multiple occasions with that "should I let it rip?" body language. One of these times, he just needs to let it go. Pennington has a weak arm velocity wise. I'm fairly confident he can get the ball 30 yards down field on a fly.
     
  36. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The problem with a weak arm is, he can throw it 30 yards, but he has to lob it higher and earlier, giving time for anyone roaming the secondary to close on the ball. To make a deep pass he'd have to recognize the WR is breaking free really early, nobody else in the secondary, then let it rip.

    I've watched every single pass all year, as have all of you. There is a reason he hasn't done it yet.
     
  37. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

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    Slightly left of center
    The Bess fumble was a great play by Hester fr SD. Ted Ginn needs to toughen up to be on this team, this isn't a pretty boy superstar team, this is a pack a lunch and bring lots of ice, it's going to be a long dirty fight and you're gonna be hurtin when we're done beating on you team.
    That said Ginn needs to be returning kicks, don't know WTF the coaches are thinkin. He also need to get three or four 6 yd slants in the first half to set up a couple double moves where Penny can hit him in stride for 15 yds and off he goes.
     
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  38. TheMageGandalf

    TheMageGandalf Senior Member

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    100% agree.

    As it is he's afraid of the football (on returns) so this doesn't surprise me.
     
  39. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    it was? Bess was carrying it like a loaf of bread and Hester was able to poke it out with his pinkie.

    Bess was careless with the ball.
     
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  40. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    the thing thats drivin me crazy is that he was very good downright electric during the preseason, am i losing my mind or did something happen from the time teddy took one back in preseeason for 6 until the regular season started
     

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