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Debunking some Dolphins myths after their Week 6 debacle

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by hugoguzman, Oct 15, 2008.

  1. hugoguzman

    hugoguzman New Member

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    Debunking some Miami Dolphins myths - Realfootball365.com

    After the team's demoralizing 29-28 loss to the Houston Texans last Sunday, the South Florida faithful have let loose with a barrage of assertions and conclusions that range from inflammatory to patently inane.

    Please give it a read and let me know what you think. Thanks!
     
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  2. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    Thank god someone said it.
     
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  3. dolpns13

    dolpns13 Chest Rockwell is my hero

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    Basically everything we have been arguing about around here but put into an article that people could better understand... For some reason things seems to have more validity to some when it is written concisely...

    Good Read!
     
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  4. Frumundah Finnatic

    Frumundah Finnatic U Mad Miami?

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    Nice job, Hugo
     
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  5. keypusher

    keypusher Well-Known Member

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    A pleasure to read.
     
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  6. Finrunner

    Finrunner Season Ticket Holder

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    I commented in the Club Level, but I did want to say here: really good article, Hugo. Thanks for the common sense approach.

    (Not that I don't yell at my TV, throw a shoe into the vase on the end table, kick the chair next to me at the sports bar, holler at the dog, sick up in the toilet, or break my knuckles punching the table when bad things happen to the Fins when I'm watching... I have good common sense like that.)
     
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  7. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Hugo, I just have to take issue with this one:
    Why does it have to be Super Bowl Winners? That implies there is only one good team each year.

    An example that hits home. AJ Smith's pickup of Chris Chambers is the #1 reason quoted around here that kick started the offense and got them into the Playoffs. I kid you not. FFIC can attest to that. Do we believe it? Who knows. And Chris was anything but price conscious.

    I'm not advocating Parcells chase the cat, mind you. But laying out a nice foundation can be helped by picking up a key free agent here and there. Its teams that chase FA's that get into trouble.
     
  8. hugoguzman

    hugoguzman New Member

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    Yeah, but signing a single player at a key position and using a second-round pick does not qualify as "loading up via free agency and trades." Moreover, the Chargers were looking for that one piece that could take them to the next level (they were already good). The Dolphins are in a completely different scenario.

    Incidentally, the Chargers got to where they are by drafting well and being intelligent with their free agent acquisitions and trades. You can be sure that they weren't trading 1st and 3rds for an above average wide receiver with a history of nagging injuries.
     
  9. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    Excellent article Hugo. Enjoyed it and as anlgp said, I'm glad someone finally said it and also realizes it. Thank you.
     
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  10. bkbuffet

    bkbuffet Season Ticket Holder

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    Good read Hugo.

    That one person may make a difference if the team is 'close', but it is pretty much just wasted money if they are rebuilding.
     
  11. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    excellent read as usual hugo...exactly how I feel on all issues, well done :up:
     
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  12. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Tell you why i dont like the article,

    # 1, i dont like it when writers generalize our fanbase from what the small minority is expressing, i believe it just adds more negativity and categorizes us as a stupid fanbase.

    #2, if i wanna be pissed at my team i will, i dont need someone telling me how to think.
     
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  13. hugoguzman

    hugoguzman New Member

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    A couple of quick thoughts...

    1) Did you notice the part about the lunatic fringes that come out of the woodwork after tough losses (I opened the article with that). The point of that is to imply that not all Dolphins fans act this way but that Miami has more than its fair share of those types (listening to local sports talk or reading newspaper message boards for the Herald or Sun Sentinal).

    This is not a generalization. It's based on anecdotal evidence and based on the fact that I've lived in Miami for most of my life but have also lived in other large sports markets like New York, which allows me to make certain comparisons in terms how our fan base compares to others.

    2) Who the heck is telling you how to think? This article is simply pointing out factual evidence that seems to debunk certain assertions.

    If my insights on how to approach analysis of NFL football struck such a nerve, then perhaps you should consider what I'm saying instead of knee-jerking about how I'm trying to tell you how to think.

    I'm no football fascist (everyone is entitled to their opinion) but that doesn't mean that I should avoid presenting certain lines of thought, that were forged not by me, but by great football minds that actually played or coached the game over the years.
     
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  14. DrAstroZoom

    DrAstroZoom Canary in a Coal Mine Luxury Box

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    Hugo, I've taken you to task on several previous articles, but I enjoyed this one quite a bit. Thanks for sharing.
     
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  15. hugoguzman

    hugoguzman New Member

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    Thank you all for the feedback! It's truly appreciated.

    I also appreciate the negative feedback, because it tells me that I'm doing my job. There's nothing wrong with invoking passionate responses, even if they're coming from a standpoint of disagreement, so I appreciate that stuff as well.
     
  16. DrAstroZoom

    DrAstroZoom Canary in a Coal Mine Luxury Box

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    Well, I don't know that I'd agree with that. I could say the moon was cheese in my next "Doctor's Notes"; the fact everyone would disagree with me doesn't in itself validate my work.
     
  17. hugoguzman

    hugoguzman New Member

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    That's funny, but it's not what I mean.

    Eliciting voices of disagreement (like djphinfan) especially when so many are chiming in with voices of agreement, means that I did a good job of providing a very defined and polarizing perspective.

    It means I wasn't wishy washy or just going through the motions with regurgitated dogma and rhetoric.
     
  18. HULKFish

    HULKFish Artist and Scribe

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    Good read!
     
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  19. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    no disrespect Hugo, i appreciate you as a fan. i will try to explain my POV and why this is a touchy subject for me..

    when you say statements like us fans are thinking that Bill Parcells is ruining the franchise for not trading for Roy williams or maybe we should bench pennington for henne so we can throw deep are statements that maybe a handful of of people have expressed, the majority is happy with theway chad is playing and i have'nt heard anyone say that bill was ruining the franchise because he did'nt trade for roy, so if YOU did and wrote an article without prefacing how few actually believe that nonsense, then your generalizing us to the outside world that this is how our fanbase's intellect is.

    I for one am trying to change the perception of our fanbase and articles like this just punch me the stomach, whats the sense of aknowledging a few simpletons.

    The arguement about Henne instead of pennington is actually one that could be debated with tact and respect, but i belive 95 percent of the people on this board are happy with pennington in charge for now.
     
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  20. Disnardo

    Disnardo Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Thanks Hugo, at least most of us know that the world is not all topsy turvy...
     
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  21. hugoguzman

    hugoguzman New Member

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    I don't mean any disrespect either, but I think that one of the reasons this article rubbed you the wrong way is because you identify with some of the stances that I deemed as myths (like the idea of benching Pennington for Henne).

    P.S. Believe it or not, I'm on the same mission as you (to change the way Miami Dolphins fans are perceived) but the reality is that there are fringe fans that dream up these fantasy scenarios, and it's those folks - that are admittedly in the minority - who spoil it for the majority of fans, which as you stated, are fairly level headed.
     
  22. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    well iam glad your on the crusade, iam so torn on the chad vrs chad thing, part of me wants him to play because of the whole rebuilding thing and how explosive he is and what his skills can do for an offense, then i started to believe that we could possibly build a team that could compete this year because of what we did against the patriots and chargers, iam willing to give him this year and next to get it done..

    I know i am in the minority that feels that we came out flat in the texan game, if people feel that were just as talented as the texans across the board then we should of won that game because we should of recognized the importance to win that game, i just did'nt see the sense of urgency which is what iam having a hard time getting over, whether there not good enough to make the plays that they were in position to make is the million dollar question,i think they are which makes me think that the Texans just wanted the game more then us. that initself pisses me off.

    i will get over it but they will have to earn my respect again. rebuilding or not, they have no excuses for not winning that game imo
     
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  23. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    I loved that. Especially debunking that we can't compete this year. 2006 Saints anyone? We're right in the thick of things and this team is playing good football. Anything can happen.
     
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  24. Larryfinfan

    Larryfinfan 17-0...Priceless Club Member

    Hugo, good article, as usual from you...There is one 'myth' that many are talking about that you didn't address...

    In order to be a winning franchise, the Dolphins have to learn to beat teams that they should beat. Mot taking away from the fact that Houston has played better than their record, we should have beaten that team. There is no debunking that unfortunately.

    Many fans, after the victories over the Bolts and Pats now 'expect' that they should be able to beat those types of teams...I'm disappointed that they let the Texans slip a victory out and can understand their just not as good as they showed against the Pats/Bolts but there are many here and other sites that can't understand it...and it's a legitimate complaint from fans given our recent history of disappointing play (like, you know, since about the time JJ left...)

    JMHO
     
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  25. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Good read but I think you used boogeymen to make your points. You said "some of the most popular themes making the rounds". Sorry but you picked some the least popular themes to make the rounds. Popular in this sentence implies volume as if a majority or at least a numerically great minority believe this. Not even close to reality. Better care needs to be taken when choosing your words here

    1) Ronnie Brown kneeling down was probably discounted by 99% of the posters here and I doubt highly that its taken seriously by more than 5% of posters on other sites

    2) "Bill Parcells is ruining the franchise by not going after more free agents". This one has the most traction if you go by how many people wanted more free agents or at least bigger name free agents. I still think the majority of posters grasp that you dont go full hog on a free agent buying spree until you're close to competing for a SuperBowl and think one or two key players will put you over the top. But what makes this another boogeyman argument is the adding of the phrase "Bill Parcells is ruining the franchise" Once again I doubt that there are 5% of the posters who think Bill Parcells is ruining this franchise

    3) “So they can throw deep more often, maybe the Dolphins should bench Chad Pennington in favor of Chad Henne.” This one I can attest too since I started a thread with that theme in mind. The only difference is that it was geared for the 2009 season and not the 2008. I havent read anyone advocating the benching of Chad Pennington this week, zero. The bench Chad Pennington in favor of Henne crowd falls into three categories a) at the end of the season if we are out of playoff hunt b) in 2009 so that we can start grooming our heir apparent c) for one game somewhere towards the end of the season just to see what Henne can do

    You made it seem like there are calls for Henne starting now and I just dont see it here and maybe some other sites have a handful or two but I'm pretty sure the vast majority, over 95% again, are against that. Here is a link in club level to a thread i started on henne vs penny. there are 127 posts and i dont think you can find one post advocating an immediate benching of Pennington which your article implied http://forums.thephins.com/club-level/18771-2009-henne-pennington.html

    4) “The Dolphins are terrible and won’t come close to competing until 2010 or beyond.” There are definitely people who think we wont truly compete until 2010. Others 2009. Some think we can compete this year. I think what seperates them is what you consider competing. If you think that competing means a legitimate shot for a SuperBowl then I doubt anyone thinks we'll still be playing in February and 2010 becomes the earliest year where its possible. If you think its playing in the AFC Championship 2009 might be apossibility. If its simply to get into the playoffs then there are many that think we have a shot this year. What I dont see however is "we are terrible" being bandied about. I have seen " we are not that good" but that's an entirely different meaning, basically saying that lets not kid ourselves, we're not suddenly going to go 13-3. If you polled fans I bet the majority would come up with between 6 wins and 9 wins. 6 wins isnt terrible in most people's minds. Once again the statement would have been fine if you clarified it and leeft out "we are terrible"

    I think the points you made were good. Its simply the way you went about it that made Dolphins fans seem kinda ignorant when in fact I think the opposite is true
     
  26. hugoguzman

    hugoguzman New Member

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    Sorry man, but I think you missed the entire point of the article and read it out of context:

    These are some of the more popular themes for the fan-turned-lunatics (I emphasized that with my opening paragraph) not some of the more popular themes in general.

    I know that you mean well, but you have to read more carefully before taking shots that are out of context.

    Thanks for the compliments, though.
     
  27. Coral Reefer

    Coral Reefer Premium Member

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    I agree with you a little DJ and the one point I brought up was his insinuation that Miami may have more of the "lunatic fans" as he called them.

    I don't agree with that.
    Every fan base has a pretty equal number of knee jerk, uneducated on the game fans and just complete dipsticks as representatives.

    You can find mind numbing posts an any teams message boards.

    Having said that, Hugo did not attempt to mirror these comments he's seen being discussed onto the entire fan base as you're taking it. He did clearly label those promoting these thoughts as "a lunatic fringe".

    No argument there as I've seen comments like he used on Dolphins message boards as posts we'd commonly tag as "zoo material".

    He didn't bring up anything that dosen't exist or posts that make our heads hurt reading them as well. Valid subject.
     
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  28. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    here is the lead in paragraph in its entirety

    There’s nothing like a last-second loss to bring all of the fan-turned-lunatics out of the woodwork and, sadly, few NFL franchises have more of those types lingering around than the Miami Dolphins. After the team's demoralizing 29-28 loss to the Houston Texans last Sunday, the South Florida faithful have let loose with a barrage of assertions and conclusions that range from inflammatory to patently inane.

    Some of the most popular themes making the rounds are as follows:


    sentence by sentence

    1) "There’s nothing like a last-second loss to bring all of the fan-turned-lunatics out of the woodwork and, sadly, few NFL franchises have more of those types lingering around than the Miami Dolphins." Had you stopped after woodwork I could agree that you implied that the numbers were few but you went on to say that "few NFL franchises have more of those types lingering around than the Miami Dolphins" which implies that there are a significant number of these people. Thats simply false

    2) "After the team's demoralizing 29-28 loss to the Houston Texans last Sunday, the South Florida faithful have let loose with a barrage of assertions and conclusions that range from inflammatory to patently inane." Here you make no distinction and simply lump the South Florida faithful into one inane lump. Use of the word "barrage" once again implies significant numbers which is patently false

    3) "Some of the most popular themes making the rounds are as follows" Once again popular in this sentence implies many. You make no distinction to imply that it means anything else.

    I can understand what you tried to get across. I'm just suggesting you're more careful with how you structure your sentences so that people dont misinterpret what you write. It happens to everyone who writes. I myself am unclear sometimes in my writing and different messages come out then the ones I intended. Its the nature of the beast
     
  29. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    I'm usually the first one to call someone out for trashing on opinions that just don't exist. But in Hugo's defense, I think there has been at least one thread on this board in the days following Sunday's loss stating the myths he's debunking. Maybe "lunatic" is a harsh word, no doubts there, but these "myths" exist on this board.

    Edited to add, Except for the Ronnie kneeling down myth. I think that came from "the other place" but it was mentioned here.
     
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  30. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    i think the prez brings up good debating points. I know hugo has good intentions so its all good, iam just touchy on the wording of articles and giving the minority a voice. i would rather surpress them and ignore, or handle them one on one.
     
  31. hugoguzman

    hugoguzman New Member

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    I hear ya, but I just think that you're one of the few that misinterpreted what I wrote.

    Most of the feedback I'm getting seems to have picked up on my underlying theme.

    No biggie, though. That's what makes literature a great thing. There's always room for interpretation and refinement. Kind of like football, if you think about it :up:
     
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  32. hugoguzman

    hugoguzman New Member

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    Well I only gave this minority a voice, so that I could then ridicule them into oblivion!
     
  33. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Thats part of the crusade brother, nippin ignorant negative opinions in the butt is important..its pretty hard to find that on this site, for which i am grateful
     
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  34. PMZQ

    PMZQ Banned

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    I would like to remind Hugo that at one time people that were considered members of the "lunatic fringe" included those that believed that African-Americans should be full citizens with all the rights enjoyed by Anglo-Americans, and also those that believed women should enjoy the right to vote.

    I think those that are so fast to praise Hugo's indictment of those who don't who don't fall in line with the "majority-think" should be ashamed of themselves. I thought this board was supposed to be "different" than other places ? Where as long as someone was respectful of others, their opinion was also to be respected. Doesn't mean you have to agree, but it really is not in the manner of comradeship espoused usually by the Admins & Mods here to praise calling posters, a "lunatic fringe".
     
  35. PMZQ

    PMZQ Banned

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    Sir, was there any reference to myself in my post above ? :no:

    You sir, are the one that has chosen to make private correspondance public, and I think anyone reading this will see my point I made in my PM with you. That does show sir, what kind of person you are. You are a mean spirited individual, who wields a poison pen, and that makes you think you are "special" and better than others. You also can't be trusted to keep private correspondace private. I didn't say anything out of line or use any 4 letter words, but I must have struck a cord with you as well, or you wouldn't be trying to defend yourself.

    Karma is a b*tch and she strikes when you least expect it.
     
  36. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    haven't read this but...

    PMs are a wonderful invention.
     
  37. PMZQ

    PMZQ Banned

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    We went that route but he chose to make things public.
     
  38. PMZQ

    PMZQ Banned

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    I agree lock it.

    Hugo, next time try writing a column about something positive, and not trying to call other people out.
     
  39. Sethdaddy8

    Sethdaddy8 Well-Known Member

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    Hugo, i like your article and agree with it. a big problem people have with football, is they want guarantee's and want to bottle success. the game just doesn't work like that.

    this is a good thread and a good article IMO.

    I suggest Hugo and PMZQ delete their last few posts, which is very easy to do. Keep the thread alive for those who both agree and disagree with it to debate in a manner that falls under the TOS.
     
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  40. hugoguzman

    hugoguzman New Member

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    Good idea! I just deleted all of my off-topic posts. Hopefully, the thread will stay alive and get back on topic.
     

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