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[MERGED] Trading Thomas, Taylor will best serve Dolphins

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by SMOKE, Jan 3, 2008.

  1. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    Yup

    For all of the "NE wants McFadden" talk, Pats fans want a Gholston, Long or Laranitius (sp?) type player.

    NE can absorb the loss of a McGinest, Givens, Samuel, etc because they have depth and they acquire extra draft picks and use them wisely, something Miami CANNOT be accused of. Last years draft was the first quality draft in forever IMO, and we don't have the depth or talent that NE has.

    :woot:

    Agree 110%
     
  2. Vendigo

    Vendigo German Gigolo Club Member

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    NE plays this perfectly. Let everyone assume that you'll pick McFadden (and let everyone be afraid you do it and end up being even better) to attract buyers. If you find one (as in Dallas), great, you'll have even more picks to adress the aging front seven. If you don't, you'll once again stun the football world by passing on McFadden and drafting said guys. By the way, I wouldn't be the least surprised to see Belichik and Pioli pull a shocker and draft Matt Ryan. This is what figures to be their highest pick in the next I don't know how many years and Ryan would make for a perfect long term successor of Brady.
     
  3. Dolphan7

    Dolphan7 Member

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    Sure you would, but the question is - Will Parcells?

    And I say he keeps JT.
     
  4. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    Sure we do, just look at the type of system they run and the type of players that they have targeted in the past.

    Sure it is, when a player reaches a certain age you have to start thinking about the future. And when a player suffers a serious injury like a concussion, you have to take that into account.

    Listen, I'm not saying that JT is washed up, I'm saying that it doesn't make much sense to let an asset just disappear without trying to turn it into a younger and possibly better asset. Trading JT isn't going to ruin our season next year, with all of the holes we have, it's already going to be a tough season.

    Just because one player does it, that doesn't mean that it will work out for every player. Trent Green is a good example of that. Eric Lindros, Wayne Crebet, etc, etc, etc are all good examples that head injuries should not be taken lightly.

    No, but it is the teams responsibilty to reason with a player that has more heart than brains. Also, it's up to the team to recognize that a player might not be reliable and prone to injuries and move on.

    Me too ;)

    Like who?
     
  5. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    In my dream scenerio we trade down to acquire more picks and still have a shot at Gholston. The problem is he could very well go #1 is he does well at the combine. In a perfect world we can swap with the Raiders and pick up Asomugha, select Gholston with our 1st and then have 4 or 5 picks to work with in rounds 2 and 3.

    A very unlikely scenerio, but I can dream.
     
  6. Motion

    Motion New Member

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    At this point I think its safe to say we need quantity over quality. There are alot of holes on this team. Besides, the draft is very deep. Those possible 3 2nd rounders would be very valuable.
     
  7. Dolphan7

    Dolphan7 Member

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    Now this is what I would think Parcells would do, trade down to get more picks vs trading JT.
     
  8. His'nBeatYour'n

    His'nBeatYour'n Glass Ceiling Repairman

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    Alright, some people think that the NFL can be run like a fantasy football team and that the Dolphins, already suffering from a lack of talent can afford to let their best and proven players go for an unproven draft pick(2nd rounder for a player rumored to considering retirement? good luck) While the rest of us realize how the NFL really works. :wink2:

    But lets put that aside for a second, and I'll tell you a reason that Parcells and Ireland (Beff? Jill? BillerLand? IreCells? ParLand? Biff?) likely won't trade away either of them. Job security. Keeping good players as stop gaps while you continue to rebuild keeps the team competitive enough to secure that you'll stick until that rebuild finishes. Getting rid of fan favorites only works if those players don't have resurgences in their new homes, AND their replacements or compensation work out.
    If you don't think that Taylor or Thomas will be worth anything to the team in 3 years once the rest of the team is up to speed, why would anyone else?
     
  9. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    IDK about that, Brady is a great player, he will be around for a very long time I'm afraid.
     
  10. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    JT is gone in that scenerio. ;)
     
  11. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    The Pats will likely do everything they possibly can to trade back several spots and grab somebody else's first rounder next year, like they always do, and still find a pro-bowl person who nobody else thought would go that high, like they always seem to do.
    Or maybe God decides its time to root for another team and they finally draft a bust. That would be nice for a change.

    As for us, I think trading with a team like the Falcons or Raiders would be a very good thing. Assuming we stay top 5 range, we will be getting a hell of a player, chances are we will still have a crack at at least one of Gholston, Long, Dorsey, or could take a shot and grab Jake Long. Also pick up some extra picks. Hell, I wouldnt even be greedy about it, just take something.
     
  12. SMOKE

    SMOKE Member

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    At their age, keeping them around would be useless. Both players are on the decline and the Dolphins won't be a good team anytime soon. Zach and JT also deserve to play for a team that has a chance and the Dolphins need to plan for the future.
     
  13. tay0365

    tay0365 New Member

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    Sure, but if history has shown us anything, Bill does not get rid of talent, and the most Important aspect of a players Parcels takes is heart, ability, effectiveness. Would Bill draft someone like Zach? No, too short. Would he draft someone like JT? No too skinny. But there is no way that he gets rid of players that can contribute to a team and have proven themselves to be the best at their position.




    Then if that is true, the the Broncos do not win any Superbowls, the 49ers miss winning 1, the Giants never wina superbowl, The Raiders don't win their 1st superbowl, the Chicago Bears don't win their superbowl, the Redskins do not win any of thier superbowls.....all had key players 32 years or older that if gone, would be very tough to equal what they did.

    Some players can do it longer then others.....oh by the way, No Farvre this year, and we are not even talking about the Packers.


    I know, but the thing is that with JT and Zach, you already have the type of players you hope to get with the younger guy. Why can't you draft the younger guys let them learn from the players you have and let them contribute together.


    You can't tell a player when he can or can't do it any more, they know better then you and me, as long as the doctors clears them, it falls on the individual if he can or can't.


    If a team does see signs that he may not be able to cut it anymore, or may be at risk, then fine, but if the guys looks fine, is checked out to be ok, there is not reason to force him out just because of an injury and an assumption
     
  14. late again

    late again Senior Member

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    Something that is getting overlooked. Good point. The #1 reason why Parcells was hired and Cam and Randy were ushered out the door was the 1-15 end result. Wayne is not going to be okay with just a couple more wins next season. In fact he's going to be feeling like he just wasted (more) money. Letting your best player(s) go does not help in the near future. And it may not help in the distant future.
     
  15. TiP54

    TiP54 Bad Reputation

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    Call me crazy.
    BUT.
    Talent wise...we will be alright without Taylor...but without Thomas we will be screwed.
    Sure, JT has been the face of this franchise for a while now.
    But Zach Thomas was the one who led this league in tackles, who thought everything he could to Crowder.
    In the second half of the season, JPeezy started living up to his fat contract.
    If all three of those guys would play next to each other next year, we will be fine in the run stopping department.
    We wont get anything for Zach that even closely resembles what he means to this team.
    A fourth rounder is the highest i can see somebody giving us for him (And thats generous)
    While Zach, himself is irreplaceable leader. Not a local leader, but a leader who leads by example, work ethic.
    And JT...i would give him up for a second rounder.
     
  16. late again

    late again Senior Member

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    Useless????.....on the decline????? Can you explain, please?
    In the 5 games he played, Zach had 52 tckls, 1 sck, and 2 PDs.
    Taylor is 1 season removed from defensive MVP. It's common knowledge this past year he was ill-used; nonetheless, Taylor still recorded 56 tckls, 11 scks, 4 PDs, 1 INT for a TD.
    Those are not useless numbers, nor are they numbers that would show evidence of decline.
     
  17. Regan21286

    Regan21286 MCAT's, EMT's, AMCAS, ugh

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    I'm sure Parcells wants to keep whatever players are still good on the team. He's stated he wants to keep existing talent and build on that. So far, only JT and ZT have shown consistent talent on our team on D. Last thing Parcells wants is another 1-15 or dare I say 0-16 year. That's what we would get if we give up the only leaders on our team.
     
  18. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    That's your opinion. Ireland and BP have already said that they want to bring in prototypical players for their system and Zach and JT don't fall into that category. Again, we are both assuming that we know what they will do, we don't. All I can point to is what they have done in the past as my evidence for what I believe they might do.

    Again you're comparing teams that won the SB with the current Miami squad. Miami is in rebuilding mode and far far far from a SB appearance.

    2 reasons

    1. Too much $$$ tied up in the same position. Say we draft Gholston and he has to sit or share time for a few years with JT and Porter, that's alot of $$$ tied up at the OLB spot, money that could be spent elsewhere.

    2. Having a guy like Gholston or Long sharing time with the vets (who will command time with their presence) will hinder the development of the younger players.

    Again, Trent Green was cleared to return.

    Also I think a team has a responsibilty to the person and then the player, if they see that Zach might be hurting himself by going back out there, they need to let him know that IMO. Football is always secondary to a persons health.

    Same argument was used with Green and look where he is today. I was very vocal about not trading for Trent, I pointed out that once a player suffers a concussion that they are more likely to suffer another and more severe concussion, and I was called a "so called fan" and basically told that I didn't know what I was talking about. Well.......
     
  19. Captain lou

    Captain lou New Member

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    So we should to replace them after they retire? They are great beloved players but if we intend to win championships we need to replace them now. When we are ready to contend they we be in a bradcast booth or on thier couches. They can't play forever. I garauntee we aren't going to contend in 2008 and it also unlikely in 2009. In 2009 it would be a great achievement to get a wild card bid. Thanks for the memories!
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2008
  20. Shamboubou

    Shamboubou Well-Known Member

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    There is no way that I let go of Taylor for less than a first round pick. Your talking about a guy that is one year removed from defensive player of the year, a pro-bowler every year, and a leader. This is a guy that teams have to gameplan how to contain and still then it doesn't work a lot of the times. Looking at what he did this year was impressive considering the secondary and LB core that we had most of this year. The fact he even finished with the amout of sacks that he did was amazing. You get a secondary next year that can cover the WR's for another second and he gets probably another 5 or 6 sacks again this year, or a LB core that can contain the run and make teams pass more your probably adding even more sacks.

    As far as Zach goes its really a horrible situation. I hate seeing him come off of his concussion injuries because I always think of Trent Green who I dont think will ever really recover from it. The way that he plays also, its just a short matter of time before he gets another concussion and it out for the season again.

    I guess the biggest aspect of it is who comes in here to run the defense and what kind of defense they intend to run here. I trade JT to anybody outside of the AFC East for a first round pick, but I wouldn't trade him for a 2nd round pick. Think that we got a 2nd for Chambers, we gave up a 2nd for A.J. Feeley, then look at JT and his skill set and there is no way he's only worth a 2nd.
     
  21. SMOKE

    SMOKE Member

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    I meant it would be useless for Zach and JT. How would they benefit from staying with the Fins? They deserve better and the Dolphins can benefit at the same time. We're rebuilding!! You don't keep guys 33 years and older with huge contracts when you rebuild. Especially if JT can get us a decent pick in a trade. Zach will be 35 next year and is a medical concern. He also doesn't fit a 34 scheme which is the direction the Fins seem to be going. Add in his salary and it just makes no sense to keep him. JT may be useful for the defense next year but he to has a huge salary and is at the end of his career. Despite his stats, he is clearly on the decline. If you deny that you're only kidding yourself.
     
  22. Dolphan7

    Dolphan7 Member

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    Would anyone trade Dan Marino in 1997 because he is at the end of his career and we could get some draft picks?
     
  23. tay0365

    tay0365 New Member

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    Now this I agree 100%, it is all assumption, and niether side really know what the big guys are thinking, whether Keeping both, getting rid of one, or both.


    Most of those teams at one points looked bad, getting rid of the older guys would have also gotten rid of their biggest reasons they won or even got there.

    1.Well, 1st off we are in good shape salary cap wise, and the two guys we are talking about have always been good at restructuring.

    2. Not really, because when they are ready, we can fit them all with no problem. If we Pick Gholston, he can play the DE side and at time fall back as LBer when Jason is not back there. If we take Long, he can play DE, with no problem of Jason taking time away from him. Also they will not be thrown into the fire, they will be slowly worked into the lineup especially for the case of Gholston.

    A QB & RB are totally different then a LB, or D-Linemen because the QB and the RB get blindsided more aften, and take a lot more shots then a D-player. A D-player tends to give shot more aften.


    Like I said, it is very tough for a QB, he takes way too many shots, and also you can't decide for him what his future is, unless you have signs that he is not in good shape and would not make it through a season.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2008
  24. tay0365

    tay0365 New Member

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    Who said you can not do both, it will be very doubtful the guys we draft this year will get much playing time, after next year you can evaluate what you want to do with all the players you still have on your team. JT and Zach are proven play makers, guys that can and have changed outcomes of many games, and are still able to do so if and when healthy.

    The best player in College right now does not equate to close to the talent we will give up if we let JT or Zach until the players comes into the NFL and proves he is as special as Zach and JT. This is not just fans not wanting to see their favorite player go, this is fans not wanting their favorite players who are still at the top of thier positions go.
     
  25. Kudda

    Kudda Banned Troll

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    They're both at the end of their career, and we're not close to contention. That's why.

    I expect to get at least a 2nd for JT. Zach a 4th that could become a 3rd provided he plays X amount of games..
     
  26. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    That is debateable and yet cant be proven through debate!
     
  27. tay0365

    tay0365 New Member

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    Oh, also, I think someone should tell the Giants that Strahan should not be playing anymore because of his age, same can be said for Ray Lewis, and a few others.
     
  28. Kudda

    Kudda Banned Troll

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    We weren't rebuilding then, but hell i'd of considered it still, age is always a factor, not to mention Dan was always pretty banged up. He only played 2 more very average years so that would of been a good decision had we got a 2nd for him no?
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2008
  29. Kudda

    Kudda Banned Troll

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    Well miracle turnarounds have been seen plenty, but lets not pretend that its a probability for our dolphins. What isn't debatable is that we're rebuiding and we need all the picks we can get.
     
  30. gofish1331

    gofish1331 New Member

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    What do I think? I will have to but someone else's jersey! Sad days are coming.
     
  31. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    Funny you should say that. As fans we agree, we have zero control, we read, we watch, we hope, but its the FO that has to make the ultimate decision. I agree as a franchise we can no longer PRETEND, we cant be half-hearted in our decision, we cant fool ourselves any longer.

    Either we are 100% committed right now to contending for a SB championship (cause thats what getting in the playoffs mean), or we arent ready for that yet cause of starting talent, injury depth, O or D scheme, or its executiion; and therefore we are better served by trading off aging parts or under-utilized ones, and acquiring youth in return, cap space in return, or draft picks.

    I say we are either all in, or we are all out, and if so well then we better hear that clearly from the FO. Give us fans a timeframe and what the plan and steps are. Granted they dont owe us the "straight scoop" although we wish we were always included in the thought process. Season tickets and merchandise sales aside, that doesnt mean we are masters of their decisions. We hope they do what would make us happiest, but its only a hope, and never has an owner succeeded or FO succeeded by following the marching order of the fans. So if we cant get a verbal answer, you do the next best thing, you look to the personnel moves of the players coming and going, the ages coming and going, the cap space being freed up, and the use of the FA and Draft picks and try to read the tea leaves.

    I will always expect in my heart that the team I root for is a believer that TODAY is the best time to win a championship, and the second best time is next year. Even if 2 decades transpire without one its the mindset and direction I expect.

    Time will tell on this new Tuna-regime and its thought process and execution when it comes to this approach.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2008
    late again likes this.
  32. FINintheMOON

    FINintheMOON Moderator Luxury Box

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    Nice post bro... But there are TOO MANY positions to fill! I say wee keep the vets that still produce until such time we can afford to replace them... And that will not be next year...
     
  33. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    I dont expect JT or ZT to be in any other uniform than a Dolphins one next year, but if it happens its will be a clear indication as to a new direction.
     
  34. Kudda

    Kudda Banned Troll

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    Sometimes it is better to sacrifice the present for a long and prosperous future. That's not to say we can't still be competitive. So with that I don't think it's as black and white as all in or out. I think the objective is to be competitve, and that's why I believe we will look to trade away aged/damage goods, for young (yet inexperienced) talent. Some of our best players this year were rookies.. Satele, Ginn, Booker, even Mauia and Liweinski were decent. I don't see any reason why that can't be the case again.
     
  35. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    :rolleyes:

    You are completely missing the point and you're just throwing names out there.
     
  36. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    :lol:

    Do you really believe that JT is going to restructure so he can play for a rebuilding team that just went 1-15? And just because you have salary cap room, that doesn't mean that you have to waste it.

    Right, so if Gholston were to come in and prove that he needs more playing time than just backup duty to JT, do you think that JT would be okay with that? What about Porter? Or Zach? If we pick a guy like Gholston he will be playing the same position as either Joey or JT, so which one is going to give up their spot for a rookie without problems? Gholston, JT and Porter are not playing end in the 3/4, so that's 2 spots for 3 guys.

    You keep saying "we can do this no problem", I say "big problem". If you think JT was cranky this year, just wait till next year when you tell him that he needs to restructure and give up his playing time on a rebuilding team.

    Head injuries are head injuries and Zach likes to throw his body around. You don't think that a LB can have his head rattled when he tries to tackle a RB barreling at him? What about the Coles hit on Christmas last year?

    Another point I made last year with Green was that you don't necessarily need to hit your head to suffer a second concussion. Some people have suffered them from coughing, sneezing and getting out of bed too quickly.

    Whatever. :rolleyes:
     
  37. late again

    late again Senior Member

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    Exactly. If we are going to go through some sort of rebuilding where winning right now is not the most important thing about playing why even play the games. In fact, why not just forfeit the next couple of years. That way the team can get twice as many practices in and won't get as banged up since the only contact will be in practice. So in 2 years we'll have a whole bunch of young well-practiced and healthy players. And you know if they're young then they're going to be good.
     
  38. Captain lou

    Captain lou New Member

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    Well since we haven't won a championship since 73 and haven't been in the playoffs in 6 years. Obviously retooling isn't working. In fact we are now a laughing stock. We are not a couple keys players away from a championship. We need much more than that. The team needs to rebuild. Enjoy the process. You ge to watch a team get better instead of worse. No one is saying to get rid of Taylor and Thomas because we will find players in the draft of equal skill. Maybe but probably not. What are doing is aquiring players who will produce when this team is ready to make a run. If you think we're a going to the playoffs next year after going 1-15 it ain't happening. It never has happened before. Indy went 9-7 after going 1-15. They also had Manning, James, and Harrison. Players the acquired in the DRAFT.
     
  39. B.Sebo

    B.Sebo TV Mastermind

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    You know for two or three or four offseasons I have heard more and more of you guys want to trade JT and ZT. Personally, I think it is insane. If you think we will be able to get value for JT in the third then more power to you . . . or ZT in the fifth for that matter. This is what happened with Pat Surtain, can any of you say that Matt Roth has been better than Pat would have been these past three years (I think its three years).

    To me it just seems like you are trading an established Pro Bowl starter for a player that in some cases may not contribute fully for three years and may never reach the level the guy you traded away was at.
     
  40. big0mar

    big0mar New Member

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    zach thomas is not a pro bowl level player anymore

    JT is borderline at this point
     

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